Stoner Sandbagging

stiefel said:

Wow! I noticed an increase of martyr complex sufferers among a certain subpopulation of this board, but ... wow....

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Its only a very small number, a few of them. Putting this Star of David used by Nazis to label Jews says more about the person putting it up than it would ever say about the banter to and fro around Rossi. Its either miss guided humor (which is most likely the case) or its really a sickness. There is a reason these cult leaders from time to time pop up and make news when they get a bunch of followers to commit mass suicide. Its because they can always find weak minded followers that have a sick affinity to follow a cult figure.

Goatboy said:

It's too late to defend yourself now, you've been branded.

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Well we have come a long way - from hard and soft tires - my statement that VR and JB have a got a lot of work to do - to goathead blindly doing what he accuses boppers of doing - reacting (sorta stupidly) with no reference to logic or reason - I'll just accept that goatie is either blasted out of his head on aloholll or w-h-y - or it's just an uncontrolled outburst of misguided juvenile humor motivated by his "if you can't understand it, then damn it - oops I mean brand it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Kropotkin said:

Godwin's_law

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Krop. Didnt realize you were a fan of cheesy, 80's, Tom Cruise, bartender movies

Kropotkin said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

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wow, I didn't know there was an actual term for this. Good find.

ptk50 said:

The only thing that is obvious is that you have not correctly read my initial post on this - so why don't you do just that before you keep on rambling about what you think - I said - what I believe.



Prior to my post there had been a series of speculations that maybe VR could have been faster on the softer tire and maybe/ maybe not CS had at times used a softer tire for his fast laps.



I suggested to



1) "drop the soft tire speculation from the thread" - because it's BS and going nowhere other than to invite bopperism (tm -Jumkie) and



2) more to the point wrote introduce one simple rule that - "the tire you qualify on is the tire you start on" - no mention of special qualifying tires - it is feasible that some riders on some bikes can put in a fastest lap on a softer tire, then opt for the harder compound for the race distance. I've been following MotoGP long enough - like since 500cc 4 stroke singles - to have caught on that the short life, 3 or 4 lap qualifying specials from the Michelin heyday are a thing of the past. Also no mention of other F1 practices - mandatory tire changes or anything else as you insinuated in your initial reply



Like all of us in this forum you're absolutely entitled to your opinion, but do me a favor and don't keep re-writing and changing what I say to suit yourself

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I think we have all been talking at cross-purposes on this matter. I actually think runnning the tyres you qualify is not a bad idea, but the point others have made is that the difference between the softs and hards is not that much these days, and the current softs are actual race tyres.



The problem now is that there is not the range of tyres to suit all riders in all conditions; I don't think there are proper intermediate tyres at all. This may be one instance where a dorna measure has been genuinely cost saving, although bridgestone were I think already providing tyres for free and were opposed to a single tyre supplier, to the extent that they are rumoured to be leaving the sport because of the absence of tyre competition, so even when dorna are "right" they are wrong.



The other bottom line is that I don't think any of the current specifications of control tyre suited the ducati last year, and it seems so far this year; it was designed around a particular bridgestone tyre co-developed over some years. Whether valentino can eventually get around this remains to be seen. It also seems to be widely held that valentino and stoner had fairly extreme tyre preferences in the pre-control tyre days, and that only they could ride the tyre of their preference, hence such a tyre being no longer available with the current limited compound choice; I think they have restricted the multi-compound tyre per se anyway.

Michael, i think ur looking at the tire choice in terms of a narrow perspective. Why should tire choice "limited" suggesting inadequate simply bcuz Bstone isnt giving Rossi his personal pref? What about say Abraham, does he not deserve equal consideration in an authentic control tire situation?



Thats why im calling Talps on his "appalling" judgement of tires 'recently'. Why is it that tire choices r adequate only when the mist popular or top rider loves them?

Jumkie said:

Michael, i think ur looking at the tire choice in terms of a narrow perspective. Why should tire choice "limited" suggesting inadequate simply bcuz Bstone isnt giving Rossi his personal pref? What about say Abraham, does he not deserve equal consideration in an authentic control tire situation?



Thats why im calling Talps on his "appalling" judgement of tires 'recently'. Why is it that tire choices r adequate only when the mist popular or top rider loves them?

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Because their rider gets to win. DUH

Jumkie said:

Michael, i think ur looking at the tire choice in terms of a narrow perspective. Why should tire choice "limited" suggesting inadequate simply bcuz Bstone isnt giving Rossi his personal pref? What about say Abraham, does he not deserve equal consideration in an authentic control tire situation?



Thats why im calling Talps on his "appalling" judgement of tires 'recently'. Why is it that tire choices r adequate only when the mist popular or top rider loves them?

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Without wanting to re-visit the tyre wars thing from a few seasons ago, I was pointing out the situation as I see it, that the control tyre has not suited rossi or stoner, which I believe is true , rather than saying this is unfair or whatever . Feel free to see some irony in the control tyre being disadvantageous to rossi if you believe dorna manipulated the tyre supply and/or regs initially to help rossi and hinder stoner. I don't disagree that dorna etc seemed to have no problem with a select few having the advantage of the sns tyres, but did seem to have a problem and moved quickly when ducati/stoner/bridgestone appeared to have an advantage (if they did it was a fairly obtained one).



I was consistently against a control tyre, partly because I am or was a believer in the whole prototype/racing improves the breed thing, and partly because it has resulted in the demise of a rusted-on long term supporter of motogp in michelin, and is apparently going to result in a second such loss (of bridgestone). I hypocritically am not quite as concerned about the issue now, because honda have enough pull to ensure their bike is looked after, and hence I don't think tyres will be a problem for casey this year. I did think it was reasonable for ducati who generally are under-resourced compared to honda and yamaha to have a chance to develop something unique and possibly better; they were prepared to switch to michelin to continue to assay this , right up until the last moment before the control tyre rule.

I expect nothing less than for a wholesale failure to get the point.



Do you really not see your mob behaviour, while accusing others?

Kropotkin said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

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That would make you Joseph Goebbels.

Goatboy said:

That would make you Joseph Goebbels.

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Good point! If only I was as successful as Goebbels (well, before 1945, anyway...)

Goatboy said:

I am interested to know how much time people think the soft tyre actually gains?

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Looking at the lap time tables and making educated guesses I would say 2-3 tenths... Not more.

Kropotkin said:

Good point! If only I was as successful as Goebbels (well, before 1945, anyway...)

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& Kinda ironic given your username!

J4rn0 said:

Looking at the lap time tables and making educated guesses I would say 2-3 tenths... Not more.

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Which (obviously if he had gotten the time out of them) would have put him inside the top 10. Two places off of his stated goal of sixth after losing a day.



You really can make this .... say anything.

Goatboy said:

& Kinda ironic given your username!





Which (obviously if he had gotten the time out of them) would have put him inside the top 10. Two places off of his stated goal of sixth after losing a day.



You really can make this .... say anything.

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Like the old saying



You have lies, damn lies, then you have statistics.

Goatboy said:

I expect nothing less than for a wholesale failure to get the point.

Do you really not see your mob behaviour, while accusing others?

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No, we got the point, and even the point you were trying to make. You just did it in such a way that was overboard for silly-man Goatboy, infact, your "wholesale failure to get that" is the point!



I ignored it, Stiefel called you on it, others defined it.



Keep up.

Personally I like the control tyre for many reasons which include parity of an ultimately limiting factor of performance.



What I do not like due to there being no transparency is how the control tyre is developed. We do not know what manufacturer and/or what riders feedback contributes the most to the direction of the tyres. In a sport heavily influenced by behind the scenes politics and sometimes blatant politics the control tyre has not removed Dorna's ability to manipulate the competition.



My personal opinion in 2008 was that when Bridgestone was forced to supply Rossi they had no choice but to develop their tyres for him rather than Ducati who had done the hard yards in conjunction with BS to make the tyre what it was in 2007. Why did they have no choice. Well if Rossi does not win it is not because of any failing of Rossi it is due to a failing of his equipment. Period. Ducati new this, experienced this and subsequently decided to switch to Michelin which was then thwarted by Dorna's control tyre ruling.

Jumkie said:

No, we got the point, and even the point you were trying to make. You just did it in such a way that was overboard for silly-man Goatboy, infact, your "wholesale failure to get that" is the point!



I ignored it, Stiefel called you on it, others defined it.



Keep up.

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Do you not see the point, do you not see the extreme, the ludicrous level to which I wanted to take it?

Do you not see your behaviour reflected back at you? Nah, course you don't.



Then again I guess it suits your motives to misunderstand, because of course you must prove yourself right at all costs.

Goatboy said:

Do you not see the point, do you not see the extreme, the ludicrous level to which I wanted to take it?

Do you not see your behaviour reflected back at you? Nah, course you don't.



Then again I guess it suits your motives to misunderstand, because of course you must prove yourself right at all costs.

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Funnily enough, as most who have an inept, delusional, pre-conceived, fictitious ideals over their judgment, he proves himself wrong more than not!!!





You did push it with the Star of David Mate, however in a way the reference you made whilst being in poor taste, considering long-standing and recent rumblings here it was also remarkably reflective of the fierce anti- Rossi and indeed anti-Rossi fan sentiment, that thankfully only exists amongst a bitter minority.



I have on many occasions pointed out the behavior of other riders fans which was not only reflective of Rossi-Fans attitudes, but indeed displayed an extreme elevation of fictional bias seeded in patriotism. Not only was this not recognized by those in their self-appointed Judicial chairs, a vehement denial of the fact is garnished with an air of righteousness against the enemy that is..........remarkable

Goatboy said:

Do you not see the point, do you not see the extreme, the ludicrous level to which I wanted to take it?

Do you not see your behaviour reflected back at you? Nah, course you don't.



Then again I guess it suits your motives to misunderstand, because of course you must prove yourself right at all costs.

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Classic. We all make mistakes in our zeal for banter & opinion dude. I have. The smart man-thing to do is acknowledge it and move on. Even besotted (look up that word) Talpa recognized it was a bit overboard. Now Goaty, your doing the classic, 'I meant it to make some convoluted conceptual point bla bla bla.' Fine, if you must dig, don't let me stop you.





EDIT: I gotcha sucka.