Stoner Sandbagging

Mental Anarchist said:

Personally I like the control tyre for many reasons which include parity of an ultimately limiting factor of performance.



What I do not like due to there being no transparency is how the control tyre is developed. We do not know what manufacturer and/or what riders feedback contributes the most to the direction of the tyres. In a sport heavily influenced by behind the scenes politics and sometimes blatant politics the control tyre has not removed Dorna's ability to manipulate the competition.



My personal opinion in 2008 was that when Bridgestone was forced to supply Rossi they had no choice but to develop their tyres for him rather than Ducati who had done the hard yards in conjunction with BS to make the tyre what it was in 2007. Why did they have no choice. Well if Rossi does not win it is not because of any failing of Rossi it is due to a failing of his equipment. Period. Ducati new this, experienced this and subsequently decided to switch to Michelin which was then thwarted by Dorna's control tyre ruling.

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I understand why people like the control tyre, and there are very legitimate arguments for it. I don't, mainly for philosophical reasons concerning the racing I watched in my formative years; I don't like the frequent yellow flags in modern car racing either. I think they are getting close now in motogp to where any further developments to make the bikes faster will preclude humans from riding them, so I may have to re-evaluate my position.



I agree about the potential problems with the lack of transparency in tyre development, but without any inside knowledge it looks to me at present that they have developed a fairly middle of the road tyre which suits the majority of the current riders who have ex-250 corner speed riding styles rather than more idiosyncratic/extreme styles; this is obviously not unfair but may contribute further to the current formula being "one -line" as many complain.



Valentino who has usually been the number 1 rider and always on major factory bikes has probably often had development slanted his way, and one would imagine his input was taken note of for the sns tyres for instance, although I am not sure there is any actual proof of this. I don't think this has necessarily been the case in recent years however, and he is definitely not the only one with influence in motogp. Honda for instance have a lot of pull, and it was rumoured that one reason for his dissatisfaction with michelin was that they were slanting their development towards hrc/pedrosa.

This thread is gold !!!!

Mental Anarchist said:

Personally I like the control tyre for many reasons which include parity of an ultimately limiting factor of performance.



What I do not like due to there being no transparency is how the control tyre is developed. We do not know what manufacturer and/or what riders feedback contributes the most to the direction of the tyres. In a sport heavily influenced by behind the scenes politics and sometimes blatant politics the control tyre has not removed Dorna's ability to manipulate the competition.



My personal opinion in 2008 was that when Bridgestone was forced to supply Rossi they had no choice but to develop their tyres for him rather than Ducati who had done the hard yards in conjunction with BS to make the tyre what it was in 2007. Why did they have no choice. Well if Rossi does not win it is not because of any failing of Rossi it is due to a failing of his equipment. Period. Ducati new this, experienced this and subsequently decided to switch to Michelin which was then thwarted by Dorna's control tyre ruling.

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ABSOLUTELY!!!



I had the opportunity to quiz Ben Spies on this and I really didn't get a solid answer. I kept drilling him, and in the end he said, (and I .... you not; paraphrasing) 'You just have to trust them.' I think this is totally unacceptable. Or using Talpas word lately, "appalling".



JanDan asked Wilco Zelenberg the same thing, and I don't think we got a better answer as he said, basically 'Bridgestones brings what they bring.' Read thread starting here: LINK



Anyway, we got to the single tire supplier in a dubious fashion. That 'single tire supplier' now called "the control tire" (I make the distinction because of what transpired in 2008) was at first an idea I embraced, because I erroneously thought everybody would get equal treatment. That is until in 08 it seemed Stoner was not getting what he had the previous year and had to resort to the 2007 spec tires. Of course the only new person getting Bstones was Rossi, which would account for the change in development though you will be hard press to find a press release announcing it.



Now Rossi fans have started to grumble how "appalling" the tire choice and development is all of a sudden, coinciding with Rossi losing the title. Rossi himself hasn't been very vocal about the tires publically, perhaps he's making noise behind the scenes and learned after the backlash of his public disgruntled opinions about Yamaha (who dastardly gave his teammate equal treatment, a real "disrespect" as he saw it.)

Jumkie said:

ABSOLUTELY!!!



Anyway, we got to the single tire supplier in a dubious fashion. That 'single tire supplier' now called "the control tire" (I make the distinction because of what transpired in 2008) was at first an idea I embraced, because I erroneously thought everybody would get equal treatment. That is until in 08 it seemed Stoner was not getting what he had the previous year and had to resort to the 2007 spec tires. Of course the only new person getting Bstones was Rossi, which would account for the change in development though you will be hard press to find a press release announcing it.

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This was one of the reasons I was opposed to the control tyre, with multiple suppliers at least a number in excess of one team or rider has a chance of getting tyres developed to suit him or them. It is not only the most popular or best rider who can bring influence to bear though, and honda for instance who are in a position to decide what tyres are original equipment on their road bikes would presumably have considerably more influence on tyre companies than an individual rider, even valentino rossi.



Notwithstanding this it does not look to me like there is too much skullduggery going on with the control tyre at present, and control tyres seem to have been uncontroversial in most forms of motorsport, although admittedly none of these series are run by dorna.There does not seem to be controversy in F1 though, and I rate bernie's straightness on a par with carmelo's. Admittedly as a stoner fan I am in a position to be relaxed about tyres this year, as i believe there is little chance of a control tyre not suiting the hondas, for the aforementioned reasons.

michaelm said:

This was one of the reasons I was opposed to the control tyre, with multiple suppliers at least a number in excess of one team or rider has a chance of getting tyres developed to suit him or them. It is not only the most popular or best rider who can bring influence to bear though, and honda for instance who are in a position to decide what tyres are original equipment on their road bikes would presumably have considerably more influence on tyre companies than an individual rider, even valentino rossi.



Notwithstanding this it does not look to me like there is too much skullduggery going on with the control tyre at present, and control tyres seem to have been uncontroversial in most forms of motorsport, although admittedly none of these series are run by dorna.There does not seem to be controversy in F1 though, and I rate bernie's straightness on a par with carmelo's. Admittedly as a stoner fan I am in a position to be relaxed about tyres this year, as i believe there is little chance of a control tyre not suiting the hondas, for the aforementioned reasons.

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Tamada...

michaelm said:

This was one of the reasons I was opposed to the control tyre, with multiple suppliers at least a number in excess of one team or rider has a chance of getting tyres developed to suit him or them. It is not only the most popular or best rider who can bring influence to bear though, and honda for instance who are in a position to decide what tyres are original equipment on their road bikes would presumably have considerably more influence on tyre companies than an individual rider, even valentino rossi.



Notwithstanding this it does not look to me like there is too much skullduggery going on with the control tyre at present, and control tyres seem to have been uncontroversial in most forms of motorsport, although admittedly none of these series are run by dorna.There does not seem to be controversy in F1 though, and I rate bernie's straightness on a par with carmelo's. Admittedly as a stoner fan I am in a position to be relaxed about tyres this year, as i believe there is little chance of a control tyre not suiting the hondas, for the aforementioned reasons.

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Tamada...

michaelm said:

I agree about the potential problems with the lack of transparency in tyre development, but without any inside knowledge it looks to me at present that they have developed a fairly middle of the road tyre which suits the majority of the current riders who have ex-250 corner speed riding styles rather than more idiosyncratic/extreme styles; thist is obviously not unfair but may contribute further to the current formula being "one -line" as many complain.

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I would put forward that the latest generation of motogp riders have developed a style entirely based on getting the best of the control tyre, and not that the tyre happens to suit them. Having said that, the control tyre by definition has to be fairly middle of the road and suit the 'normal' riders at the expense of those who are particularly extreme, like Toni Elias for example. Last time he got a tyre made especially for him he beat Rossi to the line. I agree that having a control tyre definitely contributes to motogp being 'one line'. With the tyres being a constant entity the riders are forced to adapt to get the best of that, and don't forget the teams are forced to develop their bikes in a certain way too (poor Ducati).

Valentino who has usually been the number 1 rider and always on major factory bikes has probably often had development slanted his way, and one would imagine his input was taken note of for the sns tyres for instance, although I am not sure there is any actual proof of this.

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From what i heard the Bridgestone engineers have values Jorge's feedback above anyone elses pretty much as soon as he was adapted to their tyres. He was quick, consistent and mechanically sympathetic. That is where he found his advantage over Valentino, same bike and team but understanding and using the tyres better.

Tom said:

From what i heard the Bridgestone engineers have values Jorge's feedback above anyone elses pretty much as soon as he was adapted to their tyres. He was quick, consistent and mechanically sympathetic. That is where he found his advantage over Valentino, same bike and team but understanding and using the tyres better.

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This is speculation rather than fact. Do I need to say that Lorenzo did not beat an uninjured Rossi once in 2010? It's hard to say Lorenzo had an advantage for sure if prior to Rossi's injuries, Rossi was beating Lorenzo.

Jumkie said:

ABSOLUTELY!!!



I had the opportunity to quiz Ben Spies on this and I really didn't get a solid answer. I kept drilling him, and in the end he said, (and I .... you not; paraphrasing) 'You just have to trust them.' I think this is totally unacceptable. Or using Talpas word lately, "appalling".

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Leaving aside whether a control tire is a good idea or not, you can trust Bridgestone to behave even-handedly. Now, World Superbikes, that's a different matter altogether ...

woody996 said:

This is speculation rather than fact. Do I need to say that Lorenzo did not beat an uninjured Rossi once in 2010? It's hard to say Lorenzo had an advantage for sure if prior to Rossi's injuries, Rossi was beating Lorenzo.

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You're conviniently forgetting that Lorenzo himself was injured at the start of the season.

Conspiracy theories are so funny, but convenient, you can use them for your purpose and nobody is going to be able to prove or disprove anything... Luckily the real races will begin soon enough so there will also be some real fodder for discussion.



But even with conspiracy theories, one should try to make them at least plausible. When I hear that the 2008 BS tire was developed for Rossi, it is really stupid. Where was the time to do that custom development? Especially when the same people say that BS was forced to supply Rossi, at the last minute. How can you design your 2008 tires for someone you do not know will be using them, and who has never tried them before...

stiefel said:

You're conviniently forgetting that Lorenzo himself was injured at the start of the season.

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Not at all, I said it was hard to say Lorenzo had an advantage, I didn't say Rossi had an advantage.

woody996 said:

This is speculation rather than fact. Do I need to say that Lorenzo did not beat an uninjured Rossi once in 2010? It's hard to say Lorenzo had an advantage for sure if prior to Rossi's injuries, Rossi was beating Lorenzo.

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It is hearsay more than speculation, whether you chose to believe it without any concrete evidence or a reliable source (in your opinion) going on record is up to you. As for it being 'hard to say Lorenzo had an advantage', it must be hard for you to ever say anything if you have that attitude. It is hard to say Rossi ever had an advantage over any of his rivals isn't it? Just ask Jumkie.

Kropotkin said:

Now, World Superbikes, that's a different matter altogether ...

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Are you suggesting the control tyre is developed in a way that specifically favours certain parties over others, or just that the control tyre is altogether of a lower quality, with punctures and issues of that nature (like we saw last weekend) making things far less than fair

J4rn0 said:

Especially when the same people say that BS was forced to supply Rossi, at the last minute.

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Well pretty much everybody feels that is the case, and if it isn't then we have been well and truly had by Bridgestone, Rossi and Dorna who must have released information of negotiations that were completely fabricated.

Tom said:

It is hearsay more than speculation, whether you chose to believe it without any concrete evidence or a reliable source (in your opinion) going on record is up to you. As for it being 'hard to say Lorenzo had an advantage', it must be hard for you to ever say anything if you have that attitude. It is hard to say Rossi ever had an advantage over any of his rivals isn't it? Just ask Jumkie.







Are you suggesting the control tyre is developed in a way that specifically favours certain parties over others, or just that the control tyre is altogether of a lower quality, with punctures and issues of that nature (like we saw last weekend) making things far less than fair







Well pretty much everybody feels that is the case, and if it isn't then we have been well and truly had by Bridgestone, Rossi and Dorna who must have released information of negotiations that were completely fabricated.

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You may remember that I for one always doubted the sincerity of BS' 'reluctance' to supply Rossi, however the point in my post was that if you believe they really didn't want to supply him, that makes the idea that they developed the tire for him that same year even more absurd...

The advantage that Lorenzo conclusively had over Rossi in 2010 was his health. All other advantages are hearsay or speculation because we have been deprived of the opportunity to see them both fit going at it. Based on hearsay, Rossi's injuries meant he didn't get the bike setup correctly. If you are willing to accept the hearsay re Lorenzo having an advantage over Rossi other than injury, you should also be willing to accept the hearsay that Rossi's setup troubles were to do with trying to compensate for his shoulder. I'm looking at both sides of the coin and am not jumping to a conclusion one way or another when there was clearly a factor which affected the ability to objectively test your preposition. Is that not fair?

J4rn0 said:

You may remember that I for one always doubted the sincerity of BS' 'reluctance' to supply Rossi, however the point in my post was that if you believe they really didn't want to supply him, that makes the idea that they developed the tire for him that same year even more absurd...

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Yes i see your point. I don't doubt that the counter argument was that once they had him it was fundamentally important that he did not fail, for the sake of there company image. Personally, i trust Bridgestone. I don't think they particularly favour certain riders, pick and chose who wins or do anything backhanded in their tyre supply. It is only natural for the primary feedback to come from the best riders, that is how progress is made and those riders are probably amongst the best because of the quality of the feedback they are able to give. Forced to take Valentino or not, if they had him on their supply but ignored his input they would be incredibly foolish, and for what? A loyalty to Ducati because they were there first, even though they were publically prepared to jump ship just months before. No chance

woody996 said:

The advantage that Lorenzo conclusively had over Rossi in 2010 was his health.

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The advantage that Lorenzo conclusively had over Rossi in 2010 was his superior preperation and ability to stay healthy (i.e. on his bike). That is a fact, i agree there is a degree of speculation about the rest of their relative performance, as Rossi tripped up at on the fundamentals of racing success while his teammate succeeded in every area.

woody996 said:

The advantage that Lorenzo conclusively had over Rossi in 2010 was his health. All other advantages are hearsay or speculation because we have been deprived of the opportunity to see them both fit going at it. Based on hearsay, Rossi's injuries meant he didn't get the bike setup correctly. If you are willing to accept the hearsay re Lorenzo having an advantage over Rossi other than injury, you should also be willing to accept the hearsay that Rossi's setup troubles were to do with trying to compensate for his shoulder. I'm looking at both sides of the coin and am not jumping to a conclusion one way or another when there was clearly a factor which affected the ability to objectively test your preposition. Is that not fair?

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You do realize that Lorenzo had to miss most of the pre-season testing because of injurym, right? Just saying...

Jumkie said:

Classic. We all make mistakes in our zeal for banter & opinion dude. I have. The smart man-thing to do is acknowledge it and move on. Even besotted (look up that word) Talpa recognized it was a bit overboard. Now Goaty, your doing the classic, 'I meant it to make some convoluted conceptual point bla bla bla.' Fine, if you must dig, don't let me stop you.

EDIT: I gotcha sucka.

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& Proving my point...