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Schwantz comments on MM/VR

birdman said:
We focus on the poor saps standing there with the swords in their hands, and post battle complain hey why did you stab him in the back? Meanwhile the evil manipulative emperor somehow escapes our attention. Yet he was the one who built the Collesium, if for no other reason to encourage the mob. He then encourages them to entertain to the best of their ability. The lack of clear cut systems is a part of it to me, yet we focus on the participants.

Rossi, while he annoys me at times, has always been in the middle of the battle so to speak, so I blame him for nothing, under the circumstances. He has a hell of a lot more at risk than Carmelo.
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He's as guilty as Carmelo.

His actions while overlooked because of his ties to Carmelo, have been reprehensible. You can blame him for punting another rider who dared to race him too closely for his comfort. You can blame him for running Gibernau off the track because he wanted the win. Hell go back to 1997 when he kicked another rider's bike.

Under the circumstances he's gotten away with everything short of murder on track. So he should be held as accountable as Carmelo for everything that has transpired.
 
JPSLotus said:
He's as guilty as Carmelo.

His actions while overlooked because of his ties to Carmelo, have been reprehensible. You can blame him for punting another rider who dared to race him too closely for his comfort. You can blame him for running Gibernau off the track because he wanted the win. Hell go back to 1997 when he kicked another rider's bike.

Under the circumstances he's gotten away with everything short of murder on track. So he should be held as accountable as Carmelo for everything that has transpired.
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You should be accountable for wastage of sperm.
 
birdman said:
What I had noticed was you directing the discussion into dissection of incidents vs years in the sport Marquez vs Rossi breaking it down into the fine details. TBH im not interested. What I want to know is Marquez capable of ever going Wilaroit again. If he is, if that Marquez is still in there, ticking away like a time bomb, then for both his and the riders safety it’s better to give him time away from the sport. It’s not a ban, it’s recognition the sport has been mismanaged and Marquez needs time away from it all to grow into a better, more rounded and experienced person. Go rock climbing or whatever floats his boat. There is a duty of care to Marquez himself.

In the meantime, answer one question: why was the rider licence points system abandoned? The system was designed to accumulate points and increase penalties for the number of rider indescretions, a power disincentive. Why did they get rid of it?
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That’s the thing.

The Willairot incident was a whole other scale of event, for which I probably wouldn’t have had a problem with him being banned for a year as it happens, and any repetition now he is 25 with 5 years experience in the premier class would warrant close examination of his place on the grid. Without wanting to get into cod psychology, Jumkie called him semi-autistic, by which I think he meant wired differently, and if he really is completely careless of risk to himself and others then he shouldn’t be out there.

The specific incident in this race involving Rossi was very low on the scale of risky moves however and certainly not deliberate that I can see, and I see Rossi’s post race comments as a continuation of the vendettas he has prosecuted against most of his significant rivals, where he marshals everything available to him off track, including his influence with the press and the series organisers, as well as that element of his fan base which is why I have come to dislike him.

I also see considerable hypocrisy in his statement given he has absolutely deliberately tried to run MM off the track in a previous incident.

Sure in general Rossi is a statistically a very safe rider, with 1 broken leg all that I can recall in the way of significant injuries caused by error or malfeasance by him over his very long career. I do have a considered view about things like LS08 mainly based on what Stoner said when he cooled down a little bit it is not worth going there again.
 
Keshav said:
Oh yes, the "real world" that you inhabit, wherein a bunch of boppers get angrier by the day, holding their breath, waiting for a 39 yr. old has-been to get a 10th championship, while life passes you by.
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You have commendably and adroitly avoided the requirement for the invocation of Godwin’s law but history is replete with examples of demagogues leading large numbers of people up to and including whole nations pretty much into en masse delusion.

We don’t need to go there however, because we have the fairly recent example of a large proportion of the Moto gp world, critically including Ducati themselves and Valentino, in regard to Stoner, the later iterations of the 800 Ducati, and his riding of those bikes. This was a predominantly pro-Rossi forum then, and a multitude of posters, most of them considerably smarter than Synn , were pretty much completely wrong, as they were about Stoner’s health issues in 2009 as David Emmett admitted in regard to the latter on this very forum.
 
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michaelm said:
That’s the thing.

The Willairot incident was a whole other scale of event, for which I probably wouldn’t have had a problem with him being banned for a year as it happens, and any repetition now he is 25 with 5 years experience in the premier class would warrant close examination of his place on the grid. Without wanting to get into cod psychology, Jumkie called him semi-autistic, by which I think he meant wired differently, and if he really is completely careless of risk to himself and others then he shouldn’t be out there.

The specific incident in this race involving Rossi was very low on the scale of risky moves however and certainly not deliberate that I can see, and I see Rossi’s post race comments as a continuation of the vendettas he has prosecuted against most of his significant rivals, where he marshals everything available to him off track, including his influence with the press and the series organisers, as well as that element of his fan base which is why I have come to dislike him.

I also see considerable hypocrisy in his statement given he has absolutely deliberately tried to run MM off the track in a previous incident.

Sure in general Rossi is a statistically a very safe rider, with 1 broken leg all that I can recall in the way of significant injuries caused by error or malfeasance by him over his very long career. I do have a considered view about things like LS08 mainly based on what Stoner said when he cooled down a little bit it is not worth going there again.
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Agreed. There's no way MM deliberately punted Rossi. He was riding recklessly or negligently, but he was not trying to knock VR off as VR suggested.

Whose leg did Rossi break?
 
RCV600RR said:
Agreed. There's no way MM deliberately punted Rossi. He was riding recklessly or negligently, but he was not trying to knock VR off as VR suggested.

Whose leg did Rossi break?
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He wasn't riding recklessly with the VR incident.

VR left the door wide open. MM lost the front end.

All there is to it.
 
RCV600RR said:
Agreed. There's no way MM deliberately punted Rossi. He was riding recklessly or negligently, but he was not trying to knock VR off as VR suggested.

Whose leg did Rossi break?
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I can’t even remember , in a previous discussion of his safety as a rider some years ago that was all anyone could come up with, fairly early in his premier class career I think.
 
michaelm said:
You have commendably and adroitly avoided the requirement for the invocation of Godwin’s law but history is replete with examples of demagogues leading large numbers of people up to and including whole nations pretty much into en masse delusion.

We don’t need to go there however, because we have the fairly recent example of a large proportion of the Moto gp world, critically including Ducati themselves and Valentino, in regard to Stoner, the later iterations of the 800 Ducati, and his riding of those bikes. This was a predominantly pro-Rossi forum then, and a multitude of posters, most of them considerably smarter than Synn , were pretty much completely wrong, as they were about Stoner’s health issues in 2009 as David Emmett admitted in regard to the latter on this very forum.
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:D:D:D Mike - no way I'm "going there" in light of the massive shift towards autocracy in so many parts of the globe - it being genuinely scary here in my own backyard with the presence of Fascist Hamburglar in the Oval Office. I don't want to devalue the H-word.
 
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michaelm said:
I can’t even remember , in a previous discussion of his safety as a rider some years ago that was all anyone could come up with, fairly early in his premier class career I think.
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I don't think such a thing occurred if no-one can point to it?
 
RCV600RR said:
I don't think such a thing occurred if no-one can point to it?
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My recollections on these things are usually good, but I think it 8 or 10 years ago in a discussion of another rider (possibly Stoner) being dangerous (the more things change the more they stay the same, I can remember Talpa wanting him banned for several races), and the point was how good Rossi's safety record was, with only a single injury to another rider as a result of a crash involving him, in a racing incident rather than anything egregious. I didn't see the incident or have enough even passing interest to recall the details, so dismiss it if you will.
 
In both "press debriefs" they quoted Kevin Schwantz calling for Marquez to be put on probation. I'm disappointed by Schwantz, he's taken a really biased position.

Rossi was asked why wasn't Zarco penalized. Rossi made it a point to say the incident between him and Marc was "much worse" than Zarco and Pedrosa. I'm thinking Pedrosa would disagree. I actually watched this incident several times today, Zarco took a much more narrow gap, take a look at how close both riders were in reference to the curbing when contact was made compared to Rossi and Marc. Also, take note of the far more precarious damp patches on the tarmac with noticeably more moisture, making that incident far more hazardous and dangerous! This incident between Zarco and Pedrosa was not only more agressive, but it was far more consequential. Yet, not reviewed nor penalized. Again, the norms of racing are altered for Rossi.

I should also point out the double standard regarding Pedrosa's supposed culpability versus Rossi, David Emmett of Motomatters assigned part of the blame on Pedrosa for his crash, even entertaining that contact was debatable. Conversely, he didn’t entertain the notion that Rossi was culpable in his crash. Apparently, Rossi made no detrimental decisions, unlike Pedrosa in crashing. Then again, the case was made that Marc was culpable in crashing himself out when Rossi deliberately position and repositioned his machine until Marc crashed. Tah dah, like magic, all rationalized. It's quite fascinating, exactly like religious beliefs. God can't possibly be ever at fault of anything.



If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
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synn said:
https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/894013/1/espargaro-remove-black-flag-rules-were-not-using-it

GRAB YOUR PITCHFORKS, MOUTHBREATHERS! ASPARAGUS A JUST TORE MM93 A NEW ONE!

Who? You know, the guy who was actually on the track and might know a bit more about the situation and racing in general than our resident forum experts?
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Yet he calls Petrucci the most dangerous rider in the paddock. He believes Marquez should've got a black flag, but he also believes that other riders should get black flags for their incidents. He is asking for parity when giving penalties and at the end of the day, the 30 second penalty was as good as a black flag.

He also believes Marquez should've got a penalty for hittin him not for hitting Rossi.
 
p4p1 said:
Yet he calls Petrucci the most dangerous rider in the paddock. He believes Marquez should've got a black flag, but he also believes that other riders should get black flags for their incidents. He is asking for parity when giving penalties and at the end of the day, the 30 second penalty was as good as a black flag.

He also believes Marquez should've got a penalty for hittin him not for hitting Rossi.
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I didn’t see the asparagus incident, if MM deserved a black flag for it so be it.

This does not alter that the Rossi incident was very low down on the scale of egregious incidents, that Rossi whinged/whined hypocritically and manipulatively post race, or that as those who watched the whole race live have said there were several worse incidents in the race which weren’t penalised.

MM may well be on the best bike out there, but if you are 35 kph slower than him that is rather problematic on yoir own side of things; I am guessing he had no warning MM was in the vicinity otherwise it is pretty close to dawdling on the racing line.
 
Again class from Marquez, he knew ...... up with Aleix, he rang Aleix like a man and apologised while Petrucci didn't even apologise.

I would love to be a fly on the wall in the safety commission meeting though, it sounds like it's going to go off in there and Aleix among others isn't known for backing down.

The speed difference seemed to be a problem all weekend. These guys might be the best in the world but they're not used to having to judge overtakes when they're that much faster per lap without a blue flag waving.
 
Regardless of the speed difference it is still down to the rider doing the overtake to adjust his speed so he can pull the pass off safely.
That is something Marquez needs to learn, not only in mixed conditions but in the dry too. He rides a track like he's alone on it and that's a problem.
 

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