Sashsenring

mark419ny · Jul 11, 2019

Gaz said:
You may be thinking Ben Spies who in a video (trying to find it) said something like that 'when he follows a lot of the guys he can see why they are so fast, he may not be able to replicate it on that day but he can see, but Casey does some things on a bike that there is no way I (Spies) could do'

It was said in a video where a number of riders spoke of Stoner after his retirement

here you go gaz

just because i love this video a bonus

Repsol 93 · Jul 13, 2019

MichaelBolton said:
if you didn't learn anything from the valeban: you don't have to demean other riders' accomplishments to defend your own.

signed, a Marc fan.

You say demean. I say state the facts.

Gaz said:
... but by all means live in your world.

My world is the world of reality. Your world is the world of rose colored glasses.

Holypuck said:
in terms of RAW talent Stoner is the best rider in the history of the sport

That is nothing more than pure subjectivity.

michaelm · Jul 13, 2019

Repsol 93 said:
You say demean. I say state the facts.

My world is the world of reality. Your world is the world of rose colored glasses.

That is nothing more than pure subjectivity.

The number of posters rating Stoner above or equal to MM on this forum is precisely zero, despite many being Stoner fans, and nearly everyone on here is a MM fan.

As has been said, the facts are that MM has won 7 titles, and in the opinion of just about everyone only personal misadventure will stop him winning more, probably many more, and it is hard to see how any rider can be rated his equal let alone ahead of him, although Mike Hailwood was reputedly rather amazing in a very different era. Certainly I acknowledge MM's superiority over my long term idol Mick Doohan, as I did Valentino's after his 6th premier class title.

If you are talking subjectivity though calling Stoner ”Crashey” with no context is up there, particularly given MM never had to contend with riding for the lowliest satellite team on the grid in their first year in the class. a one rider team which relied on subsidies from Dorna and which very much occupied the bottom position on the Michelin totem pole, in an era before the control tyre rule when SNS tyres were so influential (essential actually) for Michelin runners, rather demonstrated by Toni Elias in one particular race; MM instead landed straight on the best ride on the grid, a bike which had been honed by Stoner as it happened. Sure MM deserved and had earned his status even then, but not all who don't get such rides fail to do so because they lack the requisite quality.

In this reality the actual facts are that Stoner had 2 seasons which rank with the best of MMs, against pretty much the same main opposition, except Valentino was 12 years younger in 2007 and close to or arguably at his absolute peak. "Crashey" Stoner in those 2 seasons had zero race crashes in 2007, and a single race crash entirely caused by another rider with no error on his part in 2011. One of Stoner's titles was not very arguably on a bike that only Stoner could ride even more so than was the case with any of the Hondas MM has won on, and while I have little or no doubt MM could have ridden the GP07 I do doubt he could have won on a satellite Honda shod with remaindered Michelins in the tyre war days. If you want to talk "crashy" riders btw we do have the example of MM's 2015 season, for similar reasons to Stoner in 2006, trying to out-ride the capabilities of his equipment.

Stoner never imo would have dominated for a decade as MM is doing whatever the circumstances, he just did not have MM's indomitable will and sustained focus, including the ability to disregard Dorna, the media, the Valeban and anything else off-track which might apply, MM rather garnering extra motivation from such things. The riders’ tyre vote in 2012 was perhaps the last straw for Stoner, while MM just went out and won the title after the second tyre vote, albeit a vote perhaps not so specifically aimed against him/his bike. Stoner in his two peak years rode pretty much as well as it is possible to ride however, "like a god" in 2007 as one opponent with a somewhat informed perspective said, and the "facts" are we will never know how closely he could have contended against MM when in that form with that focus.

320Dave · Jul 17, 2019

michaelm said:
The number of posters rating Stoner above or equal to MM on this forum is precisely zero, despite many being Stoner fans, and nearly everyone on here is a MM fan.

As has been said, the facts are that MM has won 7 titles, and in the opinion of just about everyone only personal misadventure will stop him winning more, probably many more, and it is hard to see how any rider can be rated his equal let alone ahead of him, although Mike Hailwood was reputedly rather amazing in a very different era. Certainly I acknowledge MM's superiority over my long term idol Mick Doohan, as I did Valentino's after his 6th premier class title.

If you are talking subjectivity though calling Stoner ”Crashey” with no context is up there, particularly given MM never had to contend with riding for the lowliest satellite team on the grid in their first year in the class. a one rider team which relied on subsidies from Dorna and which very much occupied the bottom position on the Michelin totem pole, in an era before the control tyre rule when SNS tyres were so influential (essential actually) for Michelin runners, rather demonstrated by Toni Elias in one particular race; MM instead landed straight on the best ride on the grid, a bike which had been honed by Stoner as it happened. Sure MM deserved and had earned his status even then, but not all who don't get such rides fail to do so because they lack the requisite quality.

In this reality the actual facts are that Stoner had 2 seasons which rank with the best of MMs, against pretty much the same main opposition, except Valentino was 12 years younger in 2007 and close to or arguably at his absolute peak. "Crashey" Stoner in those 2 seasons had zero race crashes in 2007, and a single race crash entirely caused by another rider with no error on his part in 2011. One of Stoner's titles was not very arguably on a bike that only Stoner could ride even more so than was the case with any of the Hondas MM has won on, and while I have little or no doubt MM could have ridden the GP07 I do doubt he could have won on a satellite Honda shod with remaindered Michelins in the tyre war days. If you want to talk "crashy" riders btw we do have the example of MM's 2015 season, for similar reasons to Stoner in 2006, trying to out-ride the capabilities of his equipment.

Stoner never imo would have dominated for a decade as MM is doing whatever the circumstances, he just did not have MM's indomitable will and sustained focus, including the ability to disregard Dorna, the media, the Valeban and anything else off-track which might apply, MM rather garnering extra motivation from such things. The riders’ tyre vote in 2012 was perhaps the last straw for Stoner, while MM just went out and won the title after the second tyre vote, albeit a vote perhaps not so specifically aimed against him/his bike. Stoner in his two peak years rode pretty much as well as it is possible to ride however, "like a god" in 2007 as one opponent with a somewhat informed perspective said, and the "facts" are we will never know how closely he could have contended against MM when in that form with that focus.

HolyPhuck!!!!!!

:1a::1a::1a::1a::1a::1a:

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