Round 5: 2024 Michelin Grand Prix de France - Le Mans Bugatti Circuit

gui22a said:

I don't know why there is so much people who don't empathize with Pecco. He's is sincere about everything and rarely complain about something. He has good sportsmanship.

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Couldn't disagree more. When he speaks there is a reason. "They were faster." That could be a shot at ducati for allowing the non-factory teams to be faster than him.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Couldn't disagree more. When he speaks there is a reason. "They were faster." That could be a shot at ducati for allowing the non-factory teams to be faster than him.

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This is pure levity from your side.

gui22a said:

I don't know why there is so much people who don't empathize with Pecco. He's sincere about everything and rarely complain about something. He has good sportsmanship.

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Sure, I don’t see how anyone can take issue with this statement post race. He was hardly terrible in this race, as Lex who is an admirer says he may well have had a chance to pass Martin for the win if MM hadn’t passed him with a move few riders could have managed.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Marc vs Pecco clean passes this year

Marc- 3

Prosecco- 0


Baggs is proper ...... this year. He's got nothing for the goat. It ain't going to happen but Martin and Marc are the best riders for the factory ducati seats.

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Love it. The Rossi minions on Motorsport.com have run out of things to say except "2nd is the first placed loser"

JPSLotus said:

Anyway, I've been rewatching that Acosta crash. I think it was a bad move on his part. It's amazing no one else got taken out by him threading the needle.

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He was extremely luck to avoid the other bikes. That crash was always gonna happen sooner or later.

I've not had time to read all the comments, but I think Diggia has fully drunk the VR46 koolaid now. From the 'Marc is not an alien' comments to the way he made desperate lunges on him in the main race confirms it.

gui22a said:

This is pure levity from your side.

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He has made statements in the past that back my opinion. He has stated that he doesn't think satellite bikes should be as fast as factory ones. He has blamed other riders for his mistakes. He has not owned up to his own actions off the track. He comes from the ranch were telling ........ to obtain an upper hand comes natural. He is more like Rossi than some people notice because he hasn't kicked anyone yet. But he has knocked a lot of other riders off their bikes taking no blame. He has more than proven to me that his words mean nothing. His silver tongue and hand shakes are an act. You can't prove what he said wasn't in malice as much as I can prove it is. But I'll go by his track record.

#22 said:

Love it. The Rossi minions on Motorsport.com have run out of things to say except "2nd is the first placed loser"


He was extremely luck to avoid the other bikes. That crash was always gonna happen sooner or later.

I've not had time to read all the comments, but I think Diggia has fully drunk the VR46 koolaid now. From the 'Marc is not an alien' comments to the way he made desperate lunges on him in the main race confirms it.

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As I have said it is hard to see how focussing on MM is helping any of the Rossi associated riders, even Bagnaia with no current connection except being a protege seems distracted, and could have 11 more points at least. Meanwhile the guy leading in the points whom everyone should be primarily worrying about is just getting on with running his own races, mostly rather successfully. I tend to doubt MM is losing much sleep over being disliked by Rossi or anyone associated with him either.

michaelm said:

As I have said it is hard to see how focussing on MM is helping any of the Rossi associated riders, even Bagnaia with no current connection except being a protege seems distracted, and could have 11 more points at least. Meanwhile the guy leading in the points whom everyone should be primarily worrying about is just getting on with running his own races, mostly rather successfully. I tend to doubt MM is losing much sleep over being disliked by Rossi or anyone associated with him either.

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How long before the Valiban claim Marc is helping another Spainard win the championship?

MdubSTYLIE said:

How long before the Valiban claim Marc is helping another Spainard win the championship?

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I'll have to keep my eye on this storyline on social media. I figure it's only a matter of time.

michaelm said:

As I have said it is hard to see how focussing on MM is helping any of the Rossi associated riders, even Bagnaia with no current connection except being a protege seems distracted, and could have 11 more points at least. Meanwhile the guy leading in the points whom everyone should be primarily worrying about is just getting on with running his own races, mostly rather successfully. I tend to doubt MM is losing much sleep over being disliked by Rossi or anyone associated with him either.

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I think the hyper-fixation on MM even for Pecco stems out of everything Rossi said.

These guys haven't learned anything from VR that I would consider useful.

In particular, I think that last lap overtake by MM yesterday on Pecco was entirely to show it could be done without contact, and also a slight '.... you' to VR for saying he told Pecco and the rest of the world how to race MM. Pecco didn't seem to know how to race him yesterday, and I suspect Marc saw he can get by and hold position, so he knows he can do it again which is not good for Pecco who should be expecting Marc to come up the inside any time now.

Keshav said:

Can't speak to what was being said in that regard on other forums, but here, back then, the perception was that the Honda was the best handling bike, by journos and folks in general, and were largely positing that the Ducati had superior power/speed, and at such time as they could make the damn thing turn, the Japanese teams would be in trouble. I think it was only really when none of the other Honda riders were coming anywhere's near Marquez's results (nor were they collecting as many horrendous injuries), that it started to dawn on people just how much Marquez was out-riding the Honda's deficiencies, which weren't being effectively addressed, and becoming more glaringly obvious as the Ducatis gradually got better and better.

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At that time no other rider was on as strong a bike except Pedrosa, who on most days was not on MM’s level. Customer Honda bikes weren’t the latest and best. To their credit, Ducati seems to be supplying a bike to Martin that is a factory bike.?

warthog1 said:

2013 and 2014 I'd agree. His team mates couldn't get the speed he did though as consistently and 2013 his debut open class season. After that not so sure. 2017 and on, nup.
What stands him apart imo is what he has been able to do with saving a sliding front so often.

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I’m not disputing his talent at saving the front.

p4p1 said:

2013-14?
The 15 bike was terrible, 16 the Yams were still better and by 17 Ducati and Yamaha were at least equal or better than the Honda. From 18 onwards I don't think anybody has thought that the Honda was the best bike on the grid. There was just one guy getting consistent results on it during the 18 & 19 seasons.

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For sure he is an extraordinary rider. Every rider makes the best use of their machinery and MM is very good at doing that.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Because the years Marc was on the best bike it was by a .... hair at best. At no point in Marcs career was the Honda as dominate as this ducati. You could argue the yamaha was as good or better during that time. And it was short lived. By the time JLo was at honda the bike was not that good. Still competitive I guess. But if Lorenzo wasn't competitive on it , was it really any good? If you say yes then you must be admitting the yamaha that JLo won on was a better bike than Marc's honda at the time. At no point during Marcs time and honda was the RC finishing 1-4. Something this Ducati does regularly. It wasn't the Honda it was the riders, Marc and Dani. Even the great Stoner struggled on the Honda right before Marc joined. So when was this time when Honda was the best bike on the grid?

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There was never at any time as many customer Hondas on the grid as there are customer Ducatis now.

Bern1 said:

At that time no other rider was on as strong a bike except Pedrosa, who on most days was not on MM’s level. Customer Honda bikes weren’t the latest and best. To their credit, Ducati seems to be supplying a bike to Martin that is a factory bike.?

I’m not disputing his talent at saving the front.

For sure he is an extraordinary rider. Every rider makes the best use of their machinery and MM is very good at doing that.

There was never at any time as many customer Hondas on the grid as there are customer Ducatis now.

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What does that have to do with anything? If anything the proves my point more. Every single ducati for the last couple seasons is regularly in the top 10. 8 bikes taking up all but two spots. Only time I can think of Honda sweeping the podium was 2006 Istanbul Melandri, Stoner, Hayden with Elias finishing 5th. Tell me how that even remotely compares to every weekend being a ducati battle mixed with an additional Aprillia or KTM sometimes.

JPSLotus said:

I'll have to keep my eye on this storyline on social media. I figure it's only a matter of time.

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Wait until someone says 'It's Obvious!' when that storyline does happen, despite them making no mention of it ever before...

michaelm said:

Sure, I don’t see how anyone can take issue with this statement post race. He was hardly terrible in this race, as Lex who is an admirer says he may well have had a chance to pass Martin for the win if MM hadn’t passed him with a move few riders could have managed.

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I try to view Pecco's accomplishments objectively because I don't think he resonates with fans emotionally. Also, after a quarter century of following the sport, I've realized that context is best applied to a rider's career near its conclusion. Pecco has been the best rider for the last 2 seasons, and he delivered the first rider's world title to Ducati in 15 years. These are significant accomplishments, and I resist the attempts by some fans (perhaps subconsciously) to discredit or lessen his record because he's boring, particularly as he comes into conflict with Marc.

I think most of us would agree that some riders are more equal than others, and Marc Marquez is one of the riders who enjoys elevated status among fans, organizers, and race stewards (most of which he has earned). Marc's incursion into Pecco's territory, and the ease with which Marc has seemingly turned Ducati's management, gives me some empathy for Pecco's situation. Interference from a hegemon tends to reduce a rider's accomplishments on paper. Stoner dealt with the same situation, as did Lorenzo. The amount of interference Marc imposes on Pecco's reign with Ducati should affect they way his career is viewed historically.

Casey is still occasionally referred to as Casey Moaner. Why? Obviously because Rossi only complained when people actually deserved it . Lorenzo won 3 titles by defeating Rossi, Stoner,and Marquez, yet he's known as the fat guy who occasionally appears on Spanish TV. Why? Because even though he won 3 titles with Yamaha, Rossi is the real brand ambassador and true Yamaha champion. Juvenile tribalism does not help the business of marketing the sport, and it might be in Marc's best interest to avoid direct conflict with Pecco unless it's on track.

The block pass at Le Mans was class. Pecco's discretion was also classy compared to his riding at Portimao. Hopefully, Marc will not resort to taking Pecco's toys and building a wall in the garage.

michaelm said:

There was a poster on here back in the olden days who called Casey the FOAT, fastest of all time, and I am not sure he was too far wrong even now.

Casey had close to MM’s talent imo even if his method was different. However all the things Casey hated about the sport MM embraces and thrives on, he is a natural born shark, and Casey was never going to have a career like his, even if in his two peak years when he won the titles he rode as well as anybody ever has, imo only of course.

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I agree. As @MdubSTYLIE said, if GP racing were simply Time Trials, Casey would have won every title till retirement.

At this point, I think Marc and Casey are equal on talent. We have enough evidence to see this. In particular Marc's 2019 campaign where he single-handedly won the constructor's championship, while riding that iteration of the RC123V pretty much ended Jorge Lorenzo's career. Casey never put in a season like that even though he won rather decisively in 2007 and 2011.

I find it interesting how Marc has embraced every aspect of GP racing. Were it me, I tend towards Casey more in that I wouldn't be able to deal with anything outside of the racing itself. The one thing I will give Casey is that when he wanted to, he could make some pretty ballsy overtakes. In particular, Laguna 11 and 12 when he pinned it over the crest leaned over. I couldn't imagine having the balls to keep the throttle pinned on a piece of track like that.

mylexicon said:

I try to view Pecco's accomplishments objectively because I don't think he resonates with fans emotionally. Also, after a quarter century of following the sport, I've realized that context is best applied to a rider's career near its conclusion. Pecco has been the best rider for the last 2 seasons, and he delivered the first rider's world title to Ducati in 15 years. These are significant accomplishments, and I resist the attempts by some fans (perhaps subconsciously) to discredit or lessen his record because he's boring, particularly as he comes into conflict with Marc.

I think most of us would agree that some riders are more equal than others, and Marc Marquez is one of the riders who enjoys elevated status among fans, organizers, and race stewards (most of which he has earned). Marc's incursion into Pecco's territory, and the ease with which Marc has seemingly turned Ducati's management, gives me some empathy for Pecco's situation. Interference from a hegemon tends to reduce a rider's accomplishments on paper. Stoner dealt with the same situation, as did Lorenzo. The amount of interference Marc imposes on Pecco's reign with Ducati should affect they way his career is viewed historically.

Casey is still occasionally referred to as Casey Moaner. Why? Obviously because Rossi only complained when people actually deserved it . Lorenzo won 3 titles by defeating Rossi, Stoner,and Marquez, yet he's known as the fat guy who occasionally appears on Spanish TV. Why? Because even though he won 3 titles with Yamaha (same number Rossi won), Rossi is the real brand ambassador and true Yamaha champion. Juvenile tribalism does not help the business of marketing the sport, and it might be in Marc's best interest to avoid direct conflict with Pecco unless it's on track.

The block pass at Le Mans was class. Pecco's discretion was also classy compared to his riding at Portimao. Hopefully, Marc will not resort to taking Pecco's toys and building a wall in the garage.

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I don't dislike Pecco, but my opinion on his is one of being stale because he has won 2 title, yes, but he has also not won them decisively. Both have gone down to the last race when they really should have and I have long said that 2024 will be his real test now there are more knives in the fight. He has the record for world titles with the most DNF's each season, and he's already had what, 3? this season. Admittedly 1 was a mechanical, but the Jerez sprint was a factor of him qualifying to low.

I do think though, that both Pecco and Marc will avoid a war of words, even if they come to blows on track. Unless Rossi speaks in Pecco's ear.

mylexicon said:

I try to view Pecco's accomplishments objectively because I don't think he resonates with fans emotionally. Also, after a quarter century of following the sport, I've realized that context is best applied to a rider's career near its conclusion. Pecco has been the best rider for the last 2 seasons, and he delivered the first rider's world title to Ducati in 15 years. These are significant accomplishments, and I resist the attempts by some fans (perhaps subconsciously) to discredit or lessen his record because he's boring, particularly as he comes into conflict with Marc.

I think most of us would agree that some riders are more equal than others, and Marc Marquez is one of the riders who enjoys elevated status among fans, organizers, and race stewards (most of which he has earned). Marc's incursion into Pecco's territory, and the ease with which Marc has seemingly turned Ducati's management, gives me some empathy for Pecco's situation. Interference from a hegemon tends to reduce a rider's accomplishments on paper. Stoner dealt with the same situation, as did Lorenzo. The amount of interference Marc imposes on Pecco's reign with Ducati should affect they way his career is viewed historically.

Casey is still occasionally referred to as Casey Moaner. Why? Obviously because Rossi only complained when people actually deserved it . Lorenzo won 3 titles by defeating Rossi, Stoner,and Marquez, yet he's known as the fat guy who occasionally appears on Spanish TV. Why? Because even though he won 3 titles with Yamaha (same number Rossi won), Rossi is the real brand ambassador and true Yamaha champion. Juvenile tribalism does not help the business of marketing the sport, and it might be in Marc's best interest to avoid direct conflict with Pecco unless it's on track.

The block pass at Le Mans was class. Pecco's discretion was also classy compared to his riding at Portimao. Hopefully, Marc will not resort to taking Pecco's toys and building a wall in the garage.

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Thought-provoking post honestly.

After that record lap Pecco put in at Jerez, I've got a better appreciation for him than I did previously. Regardless of anything, he's been proven to be the most consistent and successful rider of the Ducati Desmosedici since Casey. I think he's an incredibly fast rider but just has not worked out the consistency that you would expect of at this point a double world champion. Also his racecraft leaves a bit to be desired. But at the same time, I believe he is not the fastest rider of the GP24 which belongs to Jorge Martin without a doubt. And now that Marc has gelled with the Ducati, he's struggling to hold off a GP23 that has only had one update that I'm aware of as it relates to the upper exhaust. But the fact that Marc got this update and suddenly was running with Jorge and Pecco after starting P13 would be concerning to me if I were either of those riders. But let's face it, only Gigi and Tardozzi really know what Marc is doing relative to the GP24 riders.

I don't think Marc is intentionally turning Ducati's management, I've always felt when those situations happen, it's because of a racer with supreme talent. Ayrton did it at Lotus and McLaren in the 1980s. Schumacher did it with Ferrari in the 90s into the 00s. I don't believe either were necessarily malicious in it happening. Perhaps Ayrton a little more but he knew Lotus were not capable of supporting 2 drivers equally. At any rate, I believe supreme talent holds a magic-like sway over everything. Gigi knows he has a window to get perhaps the most talented GP rider since Mike Hailwood or Casey Stoner, and I don't envy him having to make a decision of that magnitude.

I think Marc is canny enough to avoid media interactions that result in negative outcomes. He doesn't use the media for some underhanded motive the way Rossi did. The Casey Moaner detractors were out in full force when he said he was not a fan of the 850cc regulations. It's funny how 12 years since he retired, he still lives rent-free in the heads of the VR fanbase.

I don't think Marc would ever request a wall built or anything of that nature. He enjoys beating people in a straight fight because there's no better way to stamp your authority by beating everyone else.

JPSLotus said:

I think the hyper-fixation on MM even for Pecco stems out of everything Rossi said.

These guys haven't learned anything from VR that I would consider useful.

In particular, I think that last lap overtake by MM yesterday on Pecco was entirely to show it could be done without contact, and also a slight '.... you' to VR for saying he told Pecco and the rest of the world how to race MM. Pecco didn't seem to know how to race him yesterday, and I suspect Marc saw he can get by and hold position, so he knows he can do it again which is not good for Pecco who should be expecting Marc to come up the inside any time now.

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What we saw yesterday was Pecco being passed and accepting the fact.

#22 said:

I don't dislike Pecco, but my opinion on his is one of being stale because he has won 2 title, yes, but he has also not won them decisively. Both have gone down to the last race when they really should have and I have long said that 2024 will be his real test now there are more knives in the fight. He has the record for world titles with the most DNF's each season, and he's already had what, 3? this season. Admittedly 1 was a mechanical, but the Jerez sprint was a factor of him qualifying to low.

I do think though, that both Pecco and Marc will avoid a war of words, even if they come to blows on track. Unless Rossi speaks in Pecco's ear.

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Incontrovertible stats. In 2022, his best finish through 5 rounds was 5th place. In 2023, he had 3 DNF's in the first 5 GP's. This year he is 3 points behind his total from last season through 5 rounds; however, he is coming off of his best finish at LeMans in the premier class. Quite unusual that 3rd place is the best GP finish at LeMans after 6 seasons, 20 wins, and 2 world titles in MotoGP.

Time will tell whether Bagnaia is a chronically slow starter with a history of inconsistent results. He's 27 so he's got 4-5 more years to write his autobiography.

MdubSTYLIE said:

What does that have to do with anything? If anything the proves my point more. Every single ducati for the last couple seasons is regularly in the top 10. 8 bikes taking up all but two spots. Only time I can think of Honda sweeping the podium was 2006 Istanbul Melandri, Stoner, Hayden with Elias finishing 5th. Tell me how that even remotely compares to every weekend being a ducati battle mixed with an additional Aprillia or KTM sometimes.

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It has to do with the fact that there are many more Ducatis on the grid than any other bike. It being the dominant bike, there are many more opportunities for it to dominate. Thus it makes it appear even more dominant than the Honda was, with one factory bike in the hands of one rider who could consistently win.

Bern1 said:

It has to do with the fact that there are many more Ducatis on the grid than any other bike. It being the dominant bike, there are many more opportunities for it to dominate. Thus it makes it appear even more dominant than the Honda was, with one factory bike in the hands of one rider who could consistently win.

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There was 6 Hondas on the grid on and around 2005 all capable of winning. The race I mentioned above was won by a satellite honda. Second and fifth were also satellite bikes. Nicky took third and Dani was the last of all of the hondas. Hondas finished 1st 2nd 3rd(factory) 5th 11th 14th(factory) in Istanbul. The most dominate race I recall Honda ever having. Any given race Stoner, Elias, Melandri, Hayden, and Pedrosa were capable of podiums but not all races. Ducati on the other hand every rider last year was riding above their level due to having by far the best bike on the grid. In all my years I have never seen a bike more dominate than the gp22 23 and 24. One reason is because the Japanese bikes are total trash but that doesn't diminish the dominance of the Ducati right now. You say having 8 bikes on the grid gives the more chance of dominating but it also gives them more chance of riders failing which none of them do. This bike is the most dominate of all time making riders look better than they are, example Luca Marini. Who was fighting for wins last year. Now he can't even beat the other honda riders or anyone for that matter DFL. Any rider on the grid is instantly fighting for podiums on the desmo. Thats unheard of in the history of gp as far as I know. I really want to see Martin go to Aprilia to see if he is as good as he looks or if the bike is that good. Same with Pecco. I'm not sure he could win a single race the last 3 years on any other bike. More bikes does not mean better results.