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Rossi the next Melandri??

povol said:
Your pissing in the wind my friend, they will NEVER NEVER see the inequities when it comes to Rossi. Their only defense is, he earned it.
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Whilst he may have benefited, I can't see how rossi can be blamed for michelin's long term practices, and he did win the 2009 championship fairly handily with everyone on a control tyre. It could also be argued (and has been by j4rno) that the control tyre now works against him because it suits jorge better. My issue would be if stoner was denied the tyre he won with in 2007 as lex has postulated particularly if this was due to political machinations.



I would agree with you to the extent that nobody seemed concerned about tyre advantages until it was stoner/ducati that appeared to have one.
 
Jumkie said:
Yes, so you can imagine the effect it would have it one or two of its contestants had a and advantage or disadvantage written into the contest before it even starts. That what it meant for Hayden when he was forced to race with a bike not designed or developed for him, and that's what it meant when Dorna coerced that Rossi should be on Bstones while detrimentally allowing others to ride in what was perceived to be inferior equipment. And for years, when under the approval of the governing body, certain riders were given superior tires for race day.
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Yes, it is a negative effect to be in a 'losing' position before you have even started. That is part of the game, and always has been. Just like starting a race on a Suzuki means you pretty much aren't going to win. That is part of the game, and is why i always say in response you your insistance that the results are not a pure reflection of a riders ability that there is a difference between being the best at riding motorcycles and being the best motorcycle racer. There will always be a difference unless the riders race in a spec series and even then the winner is only the best at riding motorcycles in that context, as they may get on with that particular bike/tyre/track combination better than the others. Assigning one rider as a number 1 or giving someone superior equipment is the prerogative of the equipment suppliers to satisfy their competative and commercial intentions. Things are a little differnt when it comes to the governing body and organizers interfering in the competition to satisfy the commercial requirements of the sport itself, i think a line is being crossed because i don't feel it is their place to manipulate the competition from their position. With the Bridgestone thing (which is the most significant example i can think of), the control tyre was a necessary result as soon as they had given Rossi tyres that were not available to others (if that is in fact what happened).
 
povol said:
Your pissing in the wind my friend, they will NEVER NEVER see the inequities when it comes to Rossi. Their only defense is, he earned it.
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Actually Pov he has a number of things in his bow he hasnt earned but the results in history dont lie & when you perform well & get results then your influence will grow with your employer. As ive said before everyone who has won that title has deserved it - end of story. Granted i think some riders have had a bit of luck in being noticed & this is where i think Nicky has been particularly unlucky as i think he like Depuniet is very underrated. I think if he sticks with it at Ducati they WILL reward him, he is THE hardest worker on the grid - something Rossi can definatly learn from him!



We can deliberate to the end of time with hignsight but advantage, no advantage, most of them have had this or that & used whatever influence they can to get what they see that they need to be able to win, they are competitors after all.



I think its just a case of Rossi & Stoner in particular have made the best use of the advantages that have came their way.
 
johnnyvvc said:
Actually Pov he has a number of things in his bow he hasnt earned but the results in history dont lie & when you perform well & get results then your influence will grow with your employer. As ive said before everyone who has won that title has deserved it - end of story. Granted i think some riders have had a bit of luck in being noticed & this is where i think Nicky has been particularly unlucky as i think he like Depuniet is very underrated. I think if he sticks with it at Ducati they WILL reward him, he is THE hardest worker on the grid - something Rossi can definatly learn from him!



We can deliberate to the end of time with hignsight but advantage, no advantage, most of them have had this or that & used whatever influence they can to get what they see that they need to be able to win, they are competitors after all.



I think its just a case of Rossi & Stoner in particular have made the best use of the advantages that have came their way.
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Couple of things, why do you believe that Rossi doesn't work extremely hard? Not bopping, I have always understood from years and years ago that Rossi worked his arse off. Maybe that's wrong so if it is, please someone enlighten me - evidence would be good.



I think you can add lorenzo to the list of making best use of advantages now as well.
 
michaelm said:
I don't quite follow your line of argument; I don't see how the existence of a conspiracy to favour nicky hayden would make a conspiracy/conspiracies to favour valentino rossi less likely, not that I am arguing the latter on this thread at least.



As johnny has already posted hayden didn't exactly come from nowhere, he was the reigning ama championship, and signing ama champions has resulted in some success historically, including nicky's recruitment actually since as I recall nicky won a world championship for honda, their only one in the last 7 years. Perhaps honda should ask dorna to foist more riders on them. I think nicky also had strong backing from american honda, with the usa being an important market.



There is no need to invoke back room deals where dorna is concerned in this context anyway, since they very openly try to influence the national variety on the grid ; they partially funded stoner's entry into motogp with lcr in 2006.
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So your denying that Honda USA had a very large say in who rossi's factory teamate was to be in 2003. It's very simple, and I'm not directing this at you at all, but many here love their conspriacy theories about all sorts of advantages and disadvantages for certain riders and being gifted the best ride in motogp I consider to be a fair advantage.



Just as is with Cal crutchlow, not even a superbike champ,But at least in the world series, Ben spies was the world champ, Nicky was the domestic champ-straight onto a factory ride. Anyway let's just get back to the rossi conspiracys, that's how most seem to like it.
 
woody996 said:
Couple of things, why do you believe that Rossi doesn't work extremely hard? Not bopping, I have always understood from years and years ago that Rossi worked his arse off. Maybe that's wrong so if it is, please someone enlighten me - evidence would be good.



I think you can add lorenzo to the list of making best use of advantages now as well.
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Sure Wood, while Nicky, DePuniet & to some extent this season Lorenzo (credit where it is due), are out at the start of every session getting as much time in the seat as possible where Rossi comes out with barely half the session left, even at times when his side of the garage hasnt really improved and provided him with a package to fight for the win. Sure i agree that Rossi & Burgess are the masters when it comes to finding something at the very last minute like in the morning warmup & will always be in there around the win r podium. Ive just thought a number of times over the past few years that he should get his arse out there & sort the settings out, especially as the young guns are breathing down his neck getting closer & closer, a lseeon to learn fomr Nicky.
 
Frizzle said:
Pedrosa has Puig in his corner, that's how he got the switch done. By that time Bridgestone was already announced as the sole tyre supplier for 09.

They got the switch done so they could get a head start on all the other Michelin riders who had to make the switch the following year. Smart of them? Yes absolutely. Fair? No, definitely not.

These 2 riders got to switch tyre manufacturers without their teams doing so. No other rider whether at the front or not, would have got that pushed through for them. So the part I bolded in your statement to me is completely & utterly wrong.

I think if you can't see there are more than one set of rules for different riders then you have blinders on to the world my friend.







The tyres were only 1 part of the problem for Rossi in 07.

Besides Stoner's Ducati, he still easily beat every other Bridgestone rider in the championship easily.

Yes there were problem circuits for Michelin where a podium was not possible like Laguna Seca & Turkey, but they also had a qualifying advantage with their soft tyre.

Yamaha getting their lack of top speed issues sorted was more than anything the reason Vale was able to win the title back in 08. I think the bike was already the best turning bike even in 07, but if you get blown away down the straight it makes it very tough.

Having said that, every other Ducati rider still had the same advantage Casey did, and were unable to get the results he achieved.
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That's your opinion about this situation, anyway i do believe They will do the same for Stoner and Lorenzo and even a few others, but especially those 2 are next to Rossi and Pedrosa. that's what i mean with theyr taking care of their business. Most money comes in motogp because of these 4 riders and anyone of aliens who leaves motogp, he will hurt their business.



Tires were not Rossi's only problem, i mentioned that because all the attention it got, but anyway what i remember, in 2008 he didn't lose his advantages in the last few laps of a race, while in 2007 he had that problem a few times. I think in 2008 Rossi was less worry about his tires and that helped him mentally.
 
Talpa said:
Yes, and dually noted that the debate as to how Nicky got the official factory ride on the best bike in the world next to Rossi in the first place doesn't seem to come up much, especially with the conspiracy champions that exist here, probably the biggest back room deal ever............
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I had never looked at it this way, this is a a big clue for a great conspiracy theory, and it really could be true too. Will the conspiracy masters take a look at this and give it a try?
<
 
johnnyvvc said:
You are wrong here Frizz!!



Firstly Rossi changed tyres at the end of the season when he just got his arse handed to him with no increrase in performance likely so no way to win, there is nothing wrong with that!

So you would stay on equipment that you had no chance of winning on would you, either a fool or a liar me thinks.



I agree that just like Pedrosa he used his influence to get what he wanted but he is a competitor just like them all, they all want to win & to do so they need the equipement to enable them to win.
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+ I believe if Rossi/Yamaha at that moment even had a contract with Micheline, they had enough money to buy themselves out of that contract before 2008, but in the case of Pedrosa it wasn't only about his/Honda contract with the tire company, but also breaking a rule in the championship, for changing his tires in the middle of 2008 season (or at least i expect this to be a rule in motogp), and that should have been canceled by Dorna or whoever was responssible for defending of the rules. and to think no team complained and they didn't even take his points off(points scored on micheline tires).

I remember even Lorenzo was talking about a plan for tire change in the end of that year, and all of these things made the Dorna/fim oblige to go with the single tire.
 
johnnyvvc said:
I think you will find Nicky earnt his place on the GP grid as much as anybody has, if you dont like it tough. He came from a similar background to Spies beatign down on guys in the national championchips to get noticed by the top dogs.
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I think the point was; if you want to see conpiracy, you can see it where ever you want.

About him earning his place in motogp or not, he is there and that's what counts in the end.
 
rossiofsky said:
I had never looked at it this way, this is a a big clue for a great conspiracy theory, and it really could be true too. Will the conspiracy masters take a look at this and give it a try?
<
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As I said in reply to talpa's post there is no need to invoke conspiracies, dorna very openly try to increase the variety of nationalities on the grid, and openly prosecute this policy including by subsidising teams as was the case with stoner.
 
Talpa said:
So your denying that Honda USA had a very large say in who rossi's factory teamate was to be in 2003. It's very simple, and I'm not directing this at you at all, but many here love their conspriacy theories about all sorts of advantages and disadvantages for certain riders and being gifted the best ride in motogp I consider to be a fair advantage.



Just as is with Cal crutchlow, not even a superbike champ,But at least in the world series, Ben spies was the world champ, Nicky was the domestic champ-straight onto a factory ride. Anyway let's just get back to the rossi conspiracys, that's how most seem to like it.
Click to expand...

You again miss my point or points which were directed at your argument, which I think is poor, rather than you.



It is not a conspiracy if dorna and american honda promoted hayden, these things are done openly, and I can't see how dorna et al pulling the levers to get hayden on to the grid if they did affects the argument that dorna would influence things on rossi's behalf (which I am not currently arguing btw), other than to make it more likely I would have thought.



You are very dismissive of the AMA superbike championship, but the odd fairly handy rider has come from there direct to motogp, including king kenny, fast freddie, steady eddie and kevin schwantz. Spies himself also probably had that choice but wisely opted not to kill his motogp career before it had started by signing with suzuki. Mick doohan also went pretty well directly from a national superbike championship to motogp; he did win wsbk races but I think did so as a wild card. It is actually wsbk which has a poor record of producing motogp champions or even race winners, although spies may change this .
 
michaelm said:
As I said in reply to talpa's post there is no need to invoke conspiracies, dorna very openly try to increase the variety of nationalities on the grid, and openly prosecute this policy including by subsidising teams as was the case with stoner.
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I actually dont care about these conpiracy theories (or most of them anyway), and this one was made after my reply to Jumkie's comment, That motogp kept Hayden because of American money, which i was also joking.(that comment is in the last page),

But later Talpa came with a bigger one about Hayden's start in motogp, and i saw that if we want to see conspiracy in things, then we can.
 
Marco did well on the tried and tested most awesomest motorcycle ever to grace this mudball of a planet the RC211V..
 
Tom said:
Yes, it is a negative effect to be in a 'losing' position before you have even started. That is part of the game, and always has been. Just like starting a race on a Suzuki means you pretty much aren't going to win. That is part of the game, and is why i always say in response you your insistance that the results are not a pure reflection of a riders ability that there is a difference between being the best at riding motorcycles and being the best motorcycle racer. There will always be a difference unless the riders race in a spec series and even then the winner is only the best at riding motorcycles in that context, as they may get on with that particular bike/tyre/track combination better than the others. Assigning one rider as a number 1 or giving someone superior equipment is the prerogative of the equipment suppliers to satisfy their competative and commercial intentions. Things are a little differnt when it comes to the governing body and organizers interfering in the competition to satisfy the commercial requirements of the sport itself, i think a line is being crossed because i don't feel it is their place to manipulate the competition from their position. With the Bridgestone thing (which is the most significant example i can think of), the control tyre was a necessary result as soon as they had given Rossi tyres that were not available to others (if that is in fact what happened).
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Tom. R u messing with me? Ok i basically agree here but u just made another take in which i took issue for it inconsistentcy. Wtf dude.
 
michaelm said:
You again miss my point or points which were directed at your argument, which I think is poor, rather than you.



It is not a conspiracy if dorna and american honda promoted hayden, these things are done openly, and I can't see how dorna et al pulling the levers to get hayden on to the grid if they did affects the argument that dorna would influence things on rossi's behalf (which I am not currently arguing btw), other than to make it more likely I would have thought.



You are very dismissive of the AMA superbike championship, but the odd fairly handy rider has come from there direct to motogp, including king kenny, fast freddie, steady eddie and kevin schwantz. Spies himself also probably had that choice but wisely opted not to kill his motogp career before it had started by signing with suzuki. Mick doohan also went pretty well directly from a national superbike championship to motogp; he did win wsbk races but I think did so as a wild card. It is actually wsbk which has a poor record of producing motogp champions or even race winners, although spies may change this .
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Haha. Pretty good Mick. Can i make an equally absurd attempt at fishing as Talps has? Ok, Rossi was gifted the best seat in MotoGP on account that he never won an AMA championship.
<
 
johnnyvvc said:
Sure Wood, while Nicky, DePuniet & to some extent this season Lorenzo (credit where it is due), are out at the start of every session getting as much time in the seat as possible where Rossi comes out with barely half the session left, even at times when his side of the garage hasnt really improved and provided him with a package to fight for the win. Sure i agree that Rossi & Burgess are the masters when it comes to finding something at the very last minute like in the morning warmup & will always be in there around the win r podium. Ive just thought a number of times over the past few years that he should get his arse out there & sort the settings out, especially as the young guns are breathing down his neck getting closer & closer, a lseeon to learn fomr Nicky.
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I really don't know why you're saying that Rossi hasn't been going out until half the session is over and why you believe Hayden has outperformed him in this area as it just isn't right. Now I don't believe that the number of laps completed every weekend is necessarily an indicator of how hard a rider is working but you have aluded to that being an indicator. If we look at 2010, Rossi has completed 66 more laps than Hayden over the course of the season in FP1, FP2 FP3 and the WUP in practice sessions where both participated. For this purpose, QP and the WUP at Mugello have been excluded as well as all sessions at Silverstone, Assen and Catalunya. The numbers include Mugello FP2 where Hayden completed the whole session and Rossi completed half. In a head to head comparison of being out there on the track, Rossi completed more laps than Hayden 30 times to Hayden's 10. They completed the same number of laps on 21 occasions. That's 51 out of 61 times where Rossi has completed the same or more laps than Hayden. I honestly don't believe that Rossi wasn't working hard last year and I wouldn't fault him for his effort. My memory is that he was spending a large amount of time on the track because he was behind. He was working to find that elusive setting that would make everything ok.



This post is not saying that Hayden has not worked as hard as Rossi. It simply says that I don't believe Rossi was slack or lazy in his effort in 2010.
 
Both Rossi & Hayden have been hard workers. I think John was just saying Nick has a rep for it. No biggy.
 
Jumkie said:
Haha. Pretty good Mick. Can i make an equally absurd attempt at fishing as Talps has? Ok, Rossi was gifted the best seat in MotoGP on account that he never won an AMA championship.
<
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Actually by my calculation 16 of the last 33 premier class world championships have been won by riders who came directly to the premier class from national superbike championships, 11 by AMA riders, 5 by mick doohan who came from the australian superbike championship. If 7 were won by valentino rossi being valentino rossi which talpa would presumably argue and with which I would not disagree, that leaves 10, of which 3 were won by wayne rainey who should have gone directly to the premier class rather than wasting a year riding a 250, and his results in that year were certainly not what earnt him the 500 ride
<
.



(EDIT) I am warming to your argument jumkie. I have of course neglected wayne gardner, who basically also proceeded from domestic superbikes (australian and bsb) to premier class gp racing, making it 20 out of the last 33 championships from ama or australian superbike riders, and 19 of the 22 championships preceding rossi's recruitment for the 2000 season; it was valentino who took the anomalous pathway and was bloody lucky to get that nastro azzurro ride based on mere 125 and 250 world championships
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