Petrucci admits to letting Rossi by at Valencia

Gaz said:

Simple, yes.

Both showed total disregard for others (riders, mechanics, team) and were entirely selfish in that disregard.

If a guy you worked with destroyed a computer because it was to slow or did not perform as they wanted I suspect that he would not be employed for long (and again, read of Kocinski, the grenading was a final straw from all reports)

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Well then, if that's your standard, you probably don't like a bunch of riders. I'd say what Capirossi did ranks up there with the worst behavior I've ever seen in grand prix, so for you to even put Kocinski's act of protest in the category is eye opening. Total disregard for others? Why do you assume the mechanics were the victims? There was discord in the team. How do you know it wasnt garage personnel incompetence putting Kocinski in a bad spot over shoddy work?


Brother, if a rider displaying disgust for a machine in the heat of the moment, then Hopkins must be a regular slim ball too for his act of protest for his ...... machine. (Edit: just read your post about Hopper). Who was it that let a Ducati drop on the tarmac in disgust? I forgot. Anyway, that sounds like you have a very low tolerance buddy. But also, you may be assuming what Kocinski did wasn't deserved. If a tech put him on a bike that was dangerous, I'd want to grenade it too as a FU. Thing is, you nor I know the real story behind it. Seems a bit harsh to categorize a rider for hearsay, for one solitary incident, that is a bit ambiguous.

I just saw the highlights of the German round, the event after the Assen TT in 93. The commentary does mention Kocinski, and the uncharacteristically poor performance and makes a point of saying it's indication of the situation in the garage. If his team was putting a ...... machine on the grid, I can understand Kocinski's reaction. Its not the first time we've seen riders frustrated with the motorcycle. I have memories of riders kicking their bikes, letting them drop on the tarmac, spitting at the machine, punching the windscreens and tanks in disgust. That didn't exactly make me lose respect for them. Ben Spies had one of those seasons on the Yamaha. The look of disgust for his M1 was justified, yet how many techs were called on the carpet publicly? None. Btw, Ben also lost his job. So Kocinski grenading a bike and losing his job over it (same outcome as Spies) probably at least felt good. I have more respect for that than Spies taking it up the ... with a smile. You see what im saying? You seem to assume its all on Kocinski, yet i bet you'd say the garage was putting together a piece of .... machine for Spies. How many people do you think would have had a problem with Ben Spies if he would have ghost rid his M1 into a wall in protest? Categorizing Kocinski's frustration in the same category of deliberately crashing out another rider like Capirossi is a bit much for me.

Edit: just found highlights of that race. On the last lap Kocinski is battling with Harada for the podium. The Japanese passes him what looks to be on power. Perhaps that's what frustrated John and he reacted by grenading the bike. For the qualifying commentary, Dave Despain of ESPN makes a particular interesting point about Kocinski down in 8th alluding to the problematic Suzuki and says "who knows what the Suzuki is going to do its been very unpredictable this year." He also mentions after the race the team gave Kocinski "his walking papers" after his machine was found to have broke "under suspicion circumstances" haha. Yeah he probably did grenade the bike. Good for him. Ben Spies should have done the same .....

Simply Jums, I don't have to explain my reasons, likes or dislikes to you just as you do not to me and if my settings or standards are to much, then so be it (no skin of my nose just as I suspect no skin of your nose).

As I have said many times that when it comes to Kocinski where there is so much smoke there is very likely fire and so many anecdotes, stories, reports would seem to indicate that the guy was not the ideal person to be around.

What he did to the Suzuki was inexcusable.

What Capirossi did was inexcusable

What Hanika did this year, way inexcusable

All three behaved in a manner that quite simply for me means no respect.



As for Hopper, as you would know I have been very critical of hi GP times but as I mentioned, his BSB times have given me an appreciation of his SBK skills and I have no qualms admitting so.

Gaz said:

Simply Jums, I don't have to explain my reasons, likes or dislikes to you just as you do not to me and if my settings or standards are to much, then so be it (no skin of my nose just as I suspect no skin of your nose).

As I have said many times that when it comes to Kocinski where there is so much smoke there is very likely fire and so many anecdotes, stories, reports would seem to indicate that the guy was not the ideal person to be around.

What he did to the Suzuki was inexcusable.

What Capirossi did was inexcusable

What Hanika did this year, way inexcusable

All three behaved in a manner that quite simply for me means no respect.



As for Hopper, as you would know I have been very critical of hi GP times but as I mentioned, his BSB times have given me an appreciation of his SBK skills and I have no qualms admitting so.

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Of course you don't have to explain homie, but you did and are doing it anyway (afterall, your input on the topic of Kocinski was to air out that you held an incident against him).

Gaz said:

Sorry Jums, but for all his mercurial talent which he had in spades, I simply cannot look past his deliberate lunching of the Suzuki 250cc bike...

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And because you did, i get to air out what I think of the opinion based on the logic you have offered. I accept I may not convince you otherwise (nature of a forum and all) as much as you've not been able to convince some people Casey Stoner is undeserving of being categorized as a petulant person who deserves his villain status. Though if you're gonna put Kocinski and Capirossi in the same category for very different behaviors and try to pass it off as or imply it's equally "inexcusable" then I'll point out there are a lot more guys you'll need to put on your list because that's a universe apart as far as I'm concerned. Capirossi torpedoed a guy for the worst possible act antithetical to fair play competition! Kocinski over reved an engine after a race in disgust. That's about in the same ballpark as mother Teresa and Jeffery Dahmer.

I can make the case kicking a bike and ruining the fairing is just as much an "inexcusable" act of "petulance" and if i follow that logic; that is to say, your margin is so wide that perhaps looking at the bike in disapproval in public is so "inexcusable" too because it showed disrespect to the manufacturer or personnel in the garage. I'm just pointing it out brother, since you mention why you thought Kocinski deserves villain status. Sure you have that prerogative, great, I also have the prerogative of pointing out another viewpoint buddy.


Btw brother, I added this Edit to my post above.


Edit: just found highlights of that race. On the last lap Kocinski is battling with Harada for the podium. The Japanese passes him what looks to be on power. Perhaps that's what frustrated John and he reacted by grenading the bike. For the qualifying commentary, Dave Despain of ESPN makes a particular interesting point about Kocinski down in 8th alluding to the problematic Suzuki and says "who knows what the Suzuki is going to do its been very unpredictable this year." Perhaps some insight as to why Kocinski would be justifiably frustrated? Despain also mentions after the race the team gave Kocinski "his walking papers" after his machine was found to have broke "under suspicion circumstances" haha. Yeah he probably did grenade the bike. Good for him. Ben Spies should have done the same .....

Jumkie said:

And because you did, i get to air out what I think of the opinion based on the logic you have offered. I accept I may not convince you otherwise (nature of a forum and all) as much as you've not been able to convince some people Casey Stoner is undeserving of being categorized as a petulant person who deserves his villain status.

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...., I call Stoner petulant and have done many times, thus I will not try to convince people that he isn't petulant as (IMO only) he is likely the most petulant and at times childish rider to have gone through the paddock in the last 5 - 10 years (and I say this based on who springs to mind and the relevant incident)

Jumkie said:

Edit: just found highlights of that race. On the last lap Kocinski is battling with Harada for the podium. The Japanese passes him what looks to be on power. Perhaps that's what frustrated John and he reacted by grenading the bike. For the qualifying commentary, Dave Despain of ESPN makes a particular interesting point about Kocinski down in 8th alluding to the problematic Suzuki and says "who knows what the Suzuki is going to do its been very unpredictable this year." Perhaps some insight as to why Kocinski would be justifiably frustrated? Despain also mentions after the race the team gave Kocinski "his walking papers" after his machine was found to have broke "under suspicion circumstances" haha. Yeah he probably did grenade the bike. Good for him. Ben Spies should have done the same .....

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Were this the case than Rossi and near all would have been grenading their bikes each time a Ducati or in some tracks a Honda hit the turbo and left them for dead, but they didn't.

And the fact that Spies who may well have been more justified given some of the 5c failures he had (the Laguna one sticking in mind) didn't detonate a bike or from what I have seen has not denigrated the team or his mechanics says a lot about why I rate him highly.

Gaz said:

...., I call Stoner petulant and have done many times, thus I will not try to convince people that he isn't petulant as (IMO only) he is likely the most petulant and at times childish rider to have gone through the paddock in the last 5 - 10 years (and I say this based on who springs to mind and the relevant incident)
.

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News to me. I pegged you as a Casey Stoner fan. So, Kocinski = petulant, Stoner = petulant, got it. Well, I guess we can't agree on everything eh buddy?

Maybe we can find some common ground in other areas. Are you a ....... man or an ... man?

Me, I love ..., lots of it.

Jumkie said:

News to me. I pegged you as a Casey Stoner fan. So, Kocinski = petulant, Stoner = petulant, got it. Well, I guess we can't agree on everything eh buddy?

Maybe we can find some common ground in other areas. Are you a ....... or an ... man?

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Nah man, I admired the way Stoner rode the bike and will defend a lot of what he has to say, but sometimes the manner in which he acted/behaved or the way in which he would speak I found petulant (not shaking hands after Laguna for example)

No question that the guy (CS) can ride ............. and as much as I do not like him, Kocinski was special when he was 'on'. Some of the rides on the YZR were brilliant and as a young guy he was able to compete with and beat guys who are legends of the sport. No question or dissing of that ability and as I said, it would seem that he has made a brilliant success of life away from the sport which is sensational to see a rider, any rider who can use the money earnt through racing and build the empire he seems to be building. More power to him and wish him well, at least he seems to have gotten out of the sport without any severe or ongoing injury battles.

.... or ... all depends actually as whilst the Mrs has a great set of ....s I do admire a nice butt from time to time, but it has to be a butt and not so damn flat you could place a marble on it and it would not move a mm (Millimetre to non Aus).


EDIT.
Of course, as an Aussie I would always support CS on track and did want him to do well ........... no question, but I do that for all Aussies actually (and did kind of support Spies as well, more for the fact I believe that he underachieved through no fault of his own - he seemed to me to have World Champ all over him but circumstances ruled that out - and in that I have a theory)

Gaz, not shaking hands with the guy who moments earlier almost ended your life in one of the gnarlyest parts of the track, who did that because he was trying to slow you down. Uhm, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no member here would have shaken hands either (well at least not the honest ones). But wait, I'm looking for common ground...

Ok, yeah I like me a nice rack, but I'm always looking for a tight voluminous bubble butt. Youtube: Brazilian bum bum contest

Jumkie said:

Gaz, not shaking hands with the guy who moments earlier almost ended your life in one of the gnarlyest parts of the track, who did that because he was trying to slow you down. Uhm, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no member here would have shaken hands either (well at least not the honest ones). But wait, I'm looking for common ground...

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Remember that Stoner had no issues with the corkscrew incident and the issues he had were elsewhere on the track.

As an Aussie, not shaking hands no matter the circumstances is akin to spitting in someone's face .............. it may seem hard to fathom but crowds at sports events in Oz had boo'd players who have refused to shake hands (same as UK soccer).

The hand shake is just something we do ............... f*ck, I shook the hand of a guy who only 10 minutes earlier had called me a 'fat white c*nt' (amongst other things). Sure I didn't speak to him but I offered and he shook.

I grew up in an era of it was the done thing, no matter what the circumstances.

Jumkie said:

Ok, yeah I like me a nice rack, but I'm always looking for a tight voluminous bubble butt. Youtube: Brazilian bum bum contest

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Not so much a bubble butt here .............. that f*cking song annoys me but more a nice athletic butt.

And let us not overlook legs ............... hell no, good legs

Miss Bum Bum Brazil


Everything I've ever wanted in life. All in one video.

Mind you, with the shaking of hands there is always this that is often overlooked

Jumkie said:

Gaz, not shaking hands with the guy who moments earlier almost ended your life in one of the gnarlyest parts of the track, who did that because he was trying to slow you down. Uhm, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no member here would have shaken hands either (well at least not the honest ones). But wait, I'm looking for common ground...

Ok, yeah I like me a nice rack, but I'm always looking for a tight voluminous bubble butt. Youtube: Brazilian bum bum contest

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I disagree with Gaz on this, Stoner was not unknown for revisionism in his public statements, and I think was genuinely pissed off about VR's triumphalism in the face of Casey having possibly saved both their lives at the Corkscrew, as well as about being nearly forced off the track whilst on the racing line immediately before the Corkscrew, and that he had personal standards which VR possibly lacked which led to him putting the bike down in the sand later in the race rather than plowing into Rossi which would have actually been to his advantage. I suspect if Rossi had said that was a close run thing, I am glad we both got out of it, Stoner would have shook hands. I also think there was something in what Lex said once, that Stoner having to wind himself up so tight to ride the Ducati well past the edge made him prone to outbursts in the letdown when a race was over.

Stoner was petulant on occasion, but even when he was petulant in his method of prosecuting his point was usually correct. I can't defend him for making Nicky stand up his bike in that practice incident that time when Nicky was on an out lap, and found the rough pass on Bautista the race after Sachsenring 2012 hypocritical in view of his previous stance, not that he really risked taking Bautista out or altered their respective finishing positions. I also saw hubris in his obvious disdain for Marco Melandri when Marco couldn't ride the 2008 Ducati.

michaelm said:

Stoner was petulant on occasion, but even when he was petulant in his method of prosecuting his point was usually correct. I can't defend him for making Nicky stand up his bike in that practice incident that time when Nicky was on an out lap, and found the rough pass on Bautista the race after Sachsenring 2012 hypocritical in view of his previous stance, not that he really risked taking Bautista out or altered where their respective finishing positions. I also found his obvious disdain for Matco Melandri when Marco couldn't ride the 2008 Ducati hubristic.

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To start a likely flame war of sorts with others, the highlighted point is something I fully agree with Michael and one that seems borne out to have proved true.

Over the years we have seen much of what CS complained about as having been recognised as a danger with the artificial grass on some rumble strips and of course the oft-complained of slow rider on a fast line plus let us not forget that he campaigned about the lack of punishment afforded by tarred run-off areas etc.

Of all these I have no issue at all, only to wish that he had been afforded an ear or even support during the time he was raising these concerns but it was not to be as he was not marketable as (IMO) a virtue of good for the sport, as he was the villain of the piece.


As for Laguna (and I fully recognise that the comments may have changed or been re-written) but I seem to recall that CS' initial comments at the after race interview (the parc ferme interview) paid no issue with the corkscrew incident and nor with the famed last corner issue. I do recall subsequent interviews where mention of a 'brake check' was made by a journalist to which CS replied 'I have no idea, you would need to ask Valentino that' (or similar) and do distinctly recall him mentioning moves 'over the back' where there was no cameras.

To me, his behaviour with Hayden was over the top, his use of Bautista as a brake was hard but nothing not done by others (just that CS often complained of said moves) and some other comments from time to time were poor (the comment regarding Lorenzo's ankles etc).

Mind you, that all said and done he was a breath of somewhat fresh air as today we seem to have tennis like automotons who all seem to toe the party line (with the exception of Sepang onwards)

Lil Jon was sacked for not turning up to the podium. Well, according to his ciggy sponsors.
A couple of decades on, and in the midst of a .... load more commercialiasm. . . this is now Ok. <cough> vr

To quote Trunkman:

And what it also does is continue to grow a bigger, very carefully manufactured image, of Rossi. And this in turn continues to grow the preconceived image of his rivals. Rossi is the king, the funloving, charismatic, good guy. Pedrosa is boring, Lorenzo sulks and Stoner moaned. For example. Well, all four of quick character bios are both as true as they are false. Rossi is undeniably characteristic. It’s part of why the fans flocked to him in the first place. But I have also seen, first hand, that same man chuck a tantrum with the best of them. But that doesn’t fit the narrative and so it is not covered. When the toys get chucked out of Lorenzo’s pram though, that is covered because that’s the character the media has set him up as.

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JPSLotus said:

Gaz I think you would find many of those guys, in particular Rossi are just as petulant as Stoner. Only difference was that side of VR never got talked about by the media. They just ignored it, but had no problem showing Stoner as a whiner, probably because they needed a foil however fake it was for the narrative of VR. Yeah it's his fault in some regards because he didn't take a different approach. But overall, it was still better to have someone speaking their mind since no one else really wants to do much of it in the paddock.

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Having friends in some paddocks (Phillip Island, Malaysia) I can tell you that VR has his petulant moments, but until Sepang he does his away from the media eye and it has been said to me that when it happens, it is a big dummy spit.

These same friends tell stories of many a dummy spit and/or pleasant moment with the throwers of the moment often the least expected (never have I had one of them say bad words of Hayden aside from 'man he is funny when he gets pissed off, he just goes on and on but he will then say sorry' (reported by a female official from PI)


EDIT:
JSP, Stoner's issue was delivery, not much more or less (something I have long said)
We would see Edwards say something and people would accept it because of the manner in which it was said whereas CS saying the same thing was whining.
If Rossi says it, then it must be true.
But if CS, Lorenzo, Pedrosa etc all said it, then it was whining ................. the public has been accustomed to specific delivery methods and unless it is delivered in that way, it must be whining.

#22 said:

To quote Trunkman:

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That series of quotes from Trunkman (glad you posted the original link, like his work) actually mirrored some friends experiences ............. particularly of Stoner and moreso when he is away from the track.

Gaz said:

... I can tell you that VR has his petulant moments, but until Sepang he does his away from the media eye....

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..... say what? I can off the top of my head cite several instances when VR had an epic petulant moment decidedly in the media's eye...for affect! Thing is when he is petulant everyone's perception is that it's a mastermind genius mindgame to be admired.

Where to start:
I didn't lose the title, my tires were switched.
Toni Elias hate me.
I want Bstones or I'll quit.
I want to be number 1 at Yamaha or I'll quit.
Ducati aren't listening to me, I quit trying.
If I can't compete for wins I'll quit (enter Carmelo Clause).
Marquez is helping Lorenzo.
Race Direction are unfair, I think I'll quit from Valencia.
Marquez protected Lorenzo, they ganged up against me.
You see Carmelo, i demand u come to my trailer.
I didn't win so I won't go to award show.
I'm gonna stop selling 93 gear because he hates me.

Shall I go on? ALL of it in public!

Jums, what you have seen lately is said to pale compared to some that have transpired (and it is said to not always be VR but a member of the entourage).

Most of the ones you list are comments, minor (IMO) as we saw the petulance from Thursday before Sepang but there have been many instances throughout the years away from media.

Remember the 10 second penalty ............ it did not go down to well when it was applied and RD were made well aware of it (not VR although it was reported that he did comment 'casually' to some involved)

Ask around, there are stories that are known but hidden ............. most of these riders have them, some good, some bad, some funny.

Your last 4 I agree.
Yamaha #1 threats, yep but at the same time I understand his point as it is not easy to recognise or accept that you are being 'dethroned' (and I suspect even now, he is not the #2)
B'stones - not really in some way as his contract had expired so he could leav but yes in the threat component

But I ask, is this Rossi throwing the toys or is this DORNA allowing Rossi to believe that he has the power to make the demands?

In some cases mate, the issue is not the individual but the organisation and most people will take advantage of the organisation if they are allowed.



BTW, if you go back and read my Spies comments you are now encroaching into my theory/conspiracy area