Petrucci admits to letting Rossi by at Valencia

If we're still commenting on whether Rossi's petulance has been public or private, I'll share my view. The first instance that I can remember Rossi showing public-ill humor was after the Qatar race in......2003? He was penalized for cleaning his spot on the grid and he had to start from the back.

He got all angry about it and said it was unfair. Later he won in Sepang and his celebration was to sweep the pavement in front of his bike. People said it was a playful way for him to show that the incident in Qatar didn't bother him. I always thought he was really putting up his middle finger to the MotoGP management.

EDIT: I think that was also the year that he predicted that Gibernau would never win another race, a prophecy that he helped realized in Jerez a couple years later.

kurre said:

If we're still commenting on whether Rossi's petulance has been public or private, I'll share my view. The first instance that I can remember Rossi showing public-ill humor was after the Qatar race in......2003? He was penalized for cleaning his spot on the grid and he had to start from the back.

He got all angry about it and said it was unfair. Later he won in Sepang and his celebration was to sweep the pavement in front of his bike. People said it was a playful way for him to show that the incident in Qatar didn't bother him. I always thought he was really putting up his middle finger to the MotoGP management.

EDIT: I think that was also the year that he predicted that Gibernau would never win another race, a prophecy that he helped realized in Jerez a couple years later.

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Of course he cared and of course he was showing a finger to both Gibernau and Dorna. It was SG and/or his team that complained and caused the penalty. It had been done for years by many teams, so obviously he felt it unfair. I don't think anyone with any real comprehension thought the incident didn't bother VR - of course the mejia have NFI most of the time.

And not just about bike racing

JPSLotus said:

Trust me, Rossi moved before the contact actually happened. It is very difficult to pickup, but it is there.

Why is it so outrageous for Rossi to have done such a thing? He essentially did the same ....... thing in Assen. He knew MM was going to try a move going into the final chicane, and put himself at risk, especially when MM had been bowling guys over.

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What VR did at Assen is not the same as you are saying he did at Argentina. One, he puts himself in the way of a MM torpedo with a plan for a way out if the torpedo comes, but deliberately blocking the overtaking manoeuvre MM had been seen planning all weekend. The other you say he lurched his body into MM's fairing in an attempt to bring him down or at least intimidate him. You even say that "MM had been bowling guys over", implying that MM is, at the very least, a known hard passer who has a habit of causing other riders to fall or run wide during passes, so why is it so hard to believe that both are MM's bike hitting VR or his bike?

Now MM has been in the top class for 3 years and I would say offhand that he has passed with contact in at least a similar percentage of races as VR has after 14 years. But why not pick any 3 of VR's years in the top class and come up with your definitive list of VR shockers and I'll try to counter with MM clashes.

JPSLotus said:

In fact why is it even outrageous when one considers what he did to Gibernau and then Lorenzo in 2010. Hell go back to 1997 when he kicked another rider's bike.

Every WC rider in recent memory has made contact at some point with another rider, but VR seems to have had more incidents than I can recall with other riders.

The fairest rider of the more recent world champions was Stoner. I never saw him do anything stupid in terms of trying to squeeze guys out the way VR has done for years. Even his insane overtake on Lorenzo at the kink on the main straight at Laguna Seca, he gave plenty of room in spite of going for that overtake.

The point is Rossi has NEVER shied away from contact with other riders at various times through his career.

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Different standards for different riders, much? "Hell, Rossi kicked another rider's bike" vs "Never saw Stoner do anything stupid".

Here is Rossi's kick (from Argentina 98, not 97) which you keep mentioning - note it was during practice, not the race and Rossi was angry because Yasu Hatakeyama was riding / meandering slowly on the racing line & Rossi nearly hit him. Remember the gyroscopic forces in play because of the two wheels spinning means that kicking the side of a fairing will do very little. You must have seen riders highside off a bike, only for the bike to stay rubber side down, rotate back to fully upright and keep going until it hits something solid or runs out of momentum. Kicking a bike fairing at this type of speed is not dangerous to the bike being kicked. This is why I am saying that no matter what you think you can see in the Argentina vid it's your eyes playing tricks. No-one can hope to affect another bike's trajectory by leaning on the fairing whilst managing to stay on their own bike. Single frame the gif Gaz posted and you'll what see is cause and what is reaction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfjIoyIHogY

Here is Stoner punching Randy De Puniet in Le Mans 2011 during practice as Stoner was angry because de Puniet was riding / meandering slowly on the racing line and Stoner nearly hit him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMUyw9N6RDY

And the difference is? None IMO, neither were dangerous, both "aggressors" were justifiably annoyed. Should they have done it in the heat of the moment? Not sure, but I have kicked a car on a sopping wet French autoroute in the pouring rain. It was a Golf GTi which came on from a slip road & tried to drift straight out into the outside lane as he got up to speed, Unfortunately I was in lane 2 with bright red & sliver Rukka waterproofs and a red & white Nava helmet. He pushed me into the outside lane by leaning on the panniers of the 1000RX with his front wing. I braked slightly to get free and then accelerated and kicked his door hard. That was pretty stupid as I genuinely think he hadn't seen me and could have panicked and had me off, However I was justifiably annoyed as he nearly killed me. :unsure:

Stoner was penalised where Rossi was not, but times change and so do rules and rulings, as shown in the discussion about Rossi cleaning his grid slot - that had been done for years without penalty on little used tracks until SG & his team complained.

BTW, I have a huge amount of time for Stoner and my wish for Xmas was for Stoner wildcards for 2016 as a minimum

Gaz said:

Mind you, with the shaking of hands there is always this that is often overlooked

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And of course the underlying, unspoken narrative is that this is a symbolic or implied "crossing of swords".

Watched the Capirossi/Harada incident on Youtube and with all the Japanese commentators shrieking hysterically like a courtyard filled with effeminate, terrified, out-of-practice samurai in one of those classic chaotic movie scenes where they're all being slaughtered by a small handful of battle-hardened Ronan, it kind of gives the whole clip a sort of Asian Keystone Cops feeling. Kinda hard not to laugh.

The contact at Assen, if you want to call it that, was not enough to shoot Rossi in a completely different direction. It was a planned response for a move he knew was coming. It would have been funny had Marquez not made the move and wAtch Rossi " bounce off "someone who wasn't even there. Obviously you two are not changing g each other's minds. Argentina was acceptable in my book, If RD can magically determine that Rossi's actions in Sepang were somewhat justified , they should be able to come to the conclusion that Assen was a planned maneuver

povol said:

The contact at Assen, if you want to call it that, was not enough to shoot Rossi in a completely different direction. It was a planned response for a move he knew was coming. It would have been funny had Marquez not made the move and wAtch Rossi " bounce off "someone who wasn't even there. Obviously you two are not changing g each other's minds. Argentina was acceptable in my book, If RD can magically determine that Rossi's actions in Sepang were somewhat justified , they should be able to come to the conclusion that Assen was a planned maneuver

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I have to say I am with Yamaka on the Assen thing. I am sure it was pre-planned, but in this case I would give VR credit for his foresight. There were 3 options for Rosssi at Assen, stay on the racing line where he was entitled to be and accept much greater contact, take the course of action he did, or go off the track without contact; the latter may have been best from the safety point of view, but would have cost him the race and he can hardly be blamed for not finding it a desirable option. There was no way MM was passing Rossi without significant contact or even making that corner on anything resembling a racing line.

It does go back to something J4rn0 raised in the "Untouchables" thread imo; it is hardly surprising that MM considered the Assen move valid/viable, given the precedents of Rossi's move on Gibernau at Jerez 2005 and his own move on Lorenzo at Jerez 2013 which RD had deemed acceptable.

povol said:

The contact at Assen, if you want to call it that, was not enough to shoot Rossi in a completely different direction. It was a planned response for a move he knew was coming. It would have been funny had Marquez not made the move and wAtch Rossi " bounce off "someone who wasn't even there. Obviously you two are not changing g each other's minds. Argentina was acceptable in my book, If RD can magically determine that Rossi's actions in Sepang were somewhat justified , they should be able to come to the conclusion that Assen was a planned maneuver

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It's ironic that if you present this notion to Rossi boppers, they will shout in reply "WHERE'S YOUR PROOF!?" Yet they claim, without proof, that it was obvious Marquez was hindering Rossi in both PI and Sepang.

#22 said:

It's ironic that if you present this notion to Rossi boppers, they will shout in reply "WHERE'S YOUR PROOF!?" Yet they claim, without proof, that it was obvious Marquez was hindering Rossi in both Assen and Sepang.

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Except that MM actually went off track as well, and presumably by the same argument not due to the contact with VR, so the main alternative to what Valentino did was more severe contact not of his own causation, which of course doesn't make the reverse argument about Sepang less nonsensical.

Apologies, I meant PI instead of Assen.

JPSLotus said:

Putting himself at risk in Assen while getting tons of applause from many, was a risky proposition because one could never know how much force they are going to get hit with. Basically it shows he is willing to risk contact in pursuit of a race victory because he believes he will not be the one to go down. It's precisely the belief that MM makes contact that has made people blind to VR engaging in contact intentionally with MM not once just at Sepang, but additional times.

I was talking under race conditions. Did Stoner ever do even half of what VR did? Hard racer absolutely, but he always left his opponents space. As I have stated already, VR is from the Michael Schumacher school of overtaking and defending. Many of VR's reactions to these things are similar to how Schumacher would react in the press conference; minimize and chalk it up to just racing for position even when everyone knew better.

lol so it's okay to kick someone's bike because the gyroscopic forces ensure very little will happen? Okay by your logic we should just let riders kick each others bikes so long as the one doing the kicking is on the inside of the receiving rider, and the receiving rider is leaned over. That's what you're essentially advocating for by minimizing the very act.

It was a dumb move from Stoner, the worst move he did. He was fined for it, and admitted to being wrong. When did VR ever admit he was wrong? Even in the aftermath of Sepang where he admitted to what his intent was, he issued a justification saying why he did it, and why he should not have been punished.

Neither were dangerous in your estimation because of what the outcome was; no one going down. However, if it becomes a habit, that may not hold true any longer. Again, that's the sort of mindset led to people saying MM going down wasn't a big deal...as if going down on a bike moving 40MPH is no big deal.

Regarding your incident, that sucks. I wouldn't kick purely because I have seen people put themselves down because of trying to kick another vehicle when on a bike.

I get where you are coming from on some of this. My point still stands that VR has made it an art form to make contact with guys on the track, and act as if it was no big deal.

Agreed though on the Stoner wild card...god if that happens I don't even know what my reaction is going to be.

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As Povol says, we are not changing each others minds, however, like michaelm, I enjoy a good argument

You seem to equate how much applause VR gets with whether he thinks the risk is worth taking. I put it to you that you have NFI on this. What VR did in the last corner at Assen, as others have said on this thread, was the best and safest option he had given how close MM was and the maneouvre MM had been practising all weekend. Maybe MM is immature enough to go for plaudits over safety AND a win, but who knows.

Risking some crazy mofo riding into you and having a safe exit strategy if that should happen, which also happens to make you win the race, has .... all to do with a willingness to instigate contact. I'll see your "the fact that MM makes contact that has made people blind to VR engaging in contact intentionally" and raise you "MM makes contact intentionally - cf. Assen".

What should VR have done at Assen, in your opinion? You decry (correctly IMO) the Michael Schumacher tactics of intimidation, yet you imply that by VR putting his bike in the way of MM storming to victory in the last corner on the line MM'd been practising all weekend, puts VR in a bad light and....

JPSLotus said:

...shows he is willing to risk contact in pursuit of a race victory because he believes he will not be the one to go down.

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So what should VR have done given the fact that MM was obviously all out for contact if need be, as that's exactly what happened at Assen when VR did what he did. Plus MM then petulantly claimed he was the moral victor. VR may have been talking arse on the Thursday in Sepang, but so was Marquez post Assen.

To continue with your other points, to try to paraphrase what I said about gyroscopic forces as "it's OK to kick an opponents bike", is just being silly. The point I was making is that Rossi lurching into MM's fairing was unlikely to do much to MM's bike's trajectory, and given Rossi's experience (in being a dirty rider (IYO) so doubly less likely to think it would work ) that this is why it was reaction not cause you were seeing.

Despite what you claim, you were not talking "under race condtions"in your original comment - you brought up VR kicking someone's bike in "97" as evidence of VR instigating contact. Did you not realise the circumstances when you used this to try to help underpin your argument?

The one bit of my comment you appear to have missed out in yor reply was my challenge to you to put some kind of empirical evidence where your "mouth" is on this "VR is the WC to have initiated the most contacts" type of thing. I repeat it below and hope you'll take me up on it. Without that your point is simply that I say it IS the way I see it and YOU are wrong. If you don't anti-up I call ........ on your POV. In a nice way of course - it is Xmas and all!

Yamaka46 said:

Now MM has been in the top class for 3 years and I would say offhand that he has passed with contact in at least a similar percentage of races as VR has after 14 years. But why not pick any 3 of VR's years in the top class and come up with your definitive list of VR shockers and I'll try to counter with MM clashes.

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Go on - you know you want to

BTW, MM going down in Sepang could have been a big deal. It wasn't at 40mph as that is the normal speed for the corner and they were nowhere near that as Rossi had slowed them massively. However, the way the body copes with falls is fickle to say the least - one day a person can come off a bike at >100mph and be badly bruised only. Another time the selfsame person could trip down a step and bust an ankle. FYI I was never one that said MM's fall at Sepang was no big deal, I said that VR didn't plan for it to happen.

yamaka46 said:

As Povol says, we are not changing each others minds, however, like michaelm, I enjoy a good argument

You seem to equate how much applause VR gets with whether he thinks the risk is worth taking. I put it to you that you have NFI on this. What VR did in the last corner at Assen, as others have said on this thread, was the best and safest option he had given how close MM was and the maneouvre MM had been practising all weekend. Maybe MM is immature enough to go for plaudits over safety AND a win, but who knows.

Risking some crazy mofo riding into you and having a safe exit strategy if that should happen, which also happens to make you win the race, has .... all to do with a willingness to instigate contact. I'll see your "the fact that MM makes contact that has made people blind to VR engaging in contact intentionally" and raise you "MM makes contact intentionally - cf. Assen".

What should VR have done at Assen, in your opinion? You decry (correctly IMO) the Michael Schumacher tactics of intimidation, yet you imply that by VR putting his bike in the way of MM storming to victory in the last corner on the line MM'd been practising all weekend, puts VR in a bad light and....



So what should VR have done given the fact that MM was obviously all out for contact if need be, as that's exactly what happened at Assen when VR did what he did. Plus MM then petulantly claimed he was the moral victor. VR may have been talking arse on the Thursday in Sepang, but so was Marquez post Assen.

To continue with your other points, to try to paraphrase what I said about gyroscopic forces as "it's OK to kick an opponents bike", is just being silly. The point I was making is that Rossi lurching into MM's fairing was unlikely to do much to MM's bike's trajectory, and given Rossi's experience (in being a dirty rider (IYO) so doubly less likely to think it would work ) that this is why it was reaction not cause you were seeing.

Despite what you claim, you were not talking "under race condtions"in your original comment - you brought up VR kicking someone's bike in "97" as evidence of VR instigating contact. Did you not realise the circumstances when you used this to try to help underpin your argument?

The one bit of my comment you appear to have missed out in yor reply was my challenge to you to put some kind of empirical evidence where your "mouth" is on this "VR is the WC to have initiated the most contacts" type of thing. I repeat it below and hope you'll take me up on it. Without that your point is simply that I say it IS the way I see it and YOU are wrong. If you don't anti-up I call ........ on your POV. In a nice way of course - it is Xmas and all!



Go on - you know you want to

BTW, MM going down in Sepang could have been a big deal. It wasn't at 40mph as that is the normal speed for the corner and they were nowhere near that as Rossi had slowed them massively. However, the way the body copes with falls is fickle to say the least - one day a person can come off a bike at >100mph and be badly bruised only. Another time the selfsame person could trip down a step and bust an ankle. FYI I was never one that said MM's fall at Sepang was no big deal, I said that VR didn't plan for it to happen.

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All my worst injuries were in slow corners. Went down doing about 90 mph at Mid Ohio and only suffered bruised ribs. Crew replaced a clip-on and the brake lever, my partner went out and did 40 minutes (endurance race) and I went out and finished the last leg. Falling and sliding - not too bad usually. Falling and tumbling - no bueno.

I wasn't surprised that MM walked away uninjured. It wasn't a giant high-side and .... man... the suits, gloves and helmets are so good nowadays.

MM's most controversial moves happened in the lower classes and had absolutely nothing to do with Rossi.

Mick D said:

MM's most controversial moves happened in the lower classes and had absolutely nothing to do with Rossi.

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Where were you last month? THEE most "controversial moves" happened at Sepang. And it had ALL to do with Rossi. FACT!

JPSLotus said:

Yama, we're never going to see eye to eye on Rossi.

You're a fan of his, I'm not.

He's the dirtiest rider of the last 20 years without question. Talented? Yes. Worth emulating? Absolutely not.

MM's most controversial moves were all homages to VR because VR did those moves himself to others.

As I have stated time and time again, Rossi's .... behavior on the track has all been sanctioned by Dorna as okay, and it influenced a new generation of riders to see his moves as being perfectly acceptable. I shudder to think of what we may see after his late season meltdown.

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Not asking for you to see what I do, simply asking for you to back up what you say you see.

You say (yet again) he is the dirtiest rider yet provide no evidence (yet again) despite repeated requests, and without evidence your statements are pure non-sequitur.

I have provided evidence of the extremely few incidents Rossi has been involved in over 14 years, some definitely his fault, others definitely not. No one, yourself included (other than your assertion that PI 2010 with Hayden was an issue) has added to that list other than MichaelM & Gaz.

I have no issue with disagreeing with someones thought out POV, but without you providing some evidence it is simply you shouting that you are right on the internet.

If you are unable to argue your case using evidence (regardless of who is a fan of whom) then your statements can only be seen as your beliefs and therefore carry little weight in the real world of hard facts.

BTW, you brought up the concept of emulation - you say VR's not worth it, yet also say that MM's most controversial moves were copies of VRs. Make your mind up For me I can only think of 2013 on Lorenzo at Jerez and 2013 on Rossi at Laguna in the corkscrew that fall into this category.

MM's most controverial move was on Willarot and that is definitlely something that he copied from no-one else. As Mick D says, most of MMs more iffy moves were in the lower classes, and had NTDWR.

Mick D said:

MM's most controversial moves happened in the lower classes and had absolutely nothing to do with Rossi.

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Everything to do with Rossi.

Rossi has effectively legitimized dirty racing and Marquez emulated him.

I agree with the statement that Rossi's behaviour is not worth emulating, but that won't keep it from happening.

Bern1 said:

Everything to do with Rossi.

Rossi has effectively legitimized dirty racing and Marquez emulated him.

I agree with the statement that Rossi's behaviour is not worth emulating, but that won't keep it from happening.

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Marquez was emulating Rossi when he slammed into the back of Willarot on a cool down lap? Interesting.

Jumkie said:

Where were you last month? THEE most "controversial moves" happened at Sepang. And it had ALL to do with Rossi. FACT!

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Skewzme? Same as you, I believe MM was racing in Sepang and did nothing controversial until Rossi lost his .....

His few other transgressions in MGP pale in comparison to his narcissistic disregard for his peers in the lower classes.