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Petrucci admits to letting Rossi by at Valencia

Meant first mate, my bad - typo

Is one of those races I remember because of the sheer audacity to do what he did for the win

The "sheer audacity" of Kocinski "for a win" got him dropped from Castro Honda, imagine that. When he passed his Kiwi Aaron Slight teammate on the last lap to take a win Honda didn't take too kindly. Crazy I know.

Still not a fan of Kocinski though ............. deliberate lunching of the 250cc bikes was petulance

Not arguing that he could ride ............

Brother, I don't know what you mean by "lunching", but if you're talking about his falling out with Suzuki in 93 to go race for Cagiva, what bothered you so much?
 
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The "sheer audacity" of Kocinski "for a win" got him dropped from Castro Honda, imagine that. When he passed his Kiwi Aaron Slight teammate on the last lap to take a win Honda didn't take too kindly. Crazy I know.

Would need to check, but didn't that also cost slight the championship?

The audacity of Lawson to start on slicks on a wet day made the race memorable and one for the ages of tactics and risk.

EDIT. Checked, doesn't look like it but from memory I recall reading that there was a lot more to it ..........


Brother, I don't know what you mean by "lunching", but if your talking about his falling out with Suzuki in 93 to go race for Cagiva, what bothered you so much?

Lunching as in when he pinned the throttle in top, pulled the clutch, went down to first and let out the clutch destroying the bike and motor. Story was along the lines of he returned to the pits, said it seized but early days telemetry told a different story
 
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Would need to check, but didn't that also cost slight the championship?

No sir. It was the last round of the season, Kocinski had the title wrapped up. Slight needed the win to take runner up spot in the championship. John wanted another win. It was a teammate dual on the last lap. The kid from Arkansas took the win, the Kiwi 2nd. But that also meant Aaron would finish 3rd in the championship. I guess Honda wanted a 1-2 manufacturers season ending position in points. I guess they expected Lil John to just pull over. Politics. Reminds me of Senna, what's the point of racing if you're not gonna go for the win. It was a 'slightly' (see what i did there) aggressive pass, but clean enough for this level.

Edit: I love youtube. Found the lap I was just talking about. Enjoy ( btw, i once read on this forum that Honda dont do team orders. Haha. .... team orders).


"1997 World Superbike Sentul - Last Lap"


Lunching as in when he pinned the throttle in top, pulled the clutch, went down to first and let out the clutch destroying the bike and motor. Story was along the lines of he returned to the pits, said it seized but early days telemetry told a different story

Cool story bro.
 
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No sir. It was the last round of the season, Kocinski had the title wrapped up. Slight needed the win to take runner up spot in the championship. John wanted another win. It was a teammate dual on the last lap. The kid from Arkansas took the win, the Kiwi 2nd. But that also meant Aaron would finish 3rd in the championship. I guess Honda wanted a 1-2 manufacturers season ending position in points. I guess they expected Lil John to just pull over. Politics. Reminds me of Senna, what's the point of racing if your not gonna go for the win. It was a slightly aggressive pass, but clean enough for this level.


From Neil Tuxworth
He won the 1997 World Superbike championship for Honda, of which, Castrol Honda team manager Neil Tuxworth has said several times, "We did the one year with John and we won the title, so it was all good. But I seriously doubt we could have done another year with him".
sOURCE - Soup :: Kocinski in Arch Digest

Obviously a lot more to it than just beating slight (The Mamola of WSBK)

Cool story bro.

Interestingly, Herve Poncharal was his 250cc Suzuki team boss until they sacked him (by the look of it)

That was the story of the day ............
 
Gaz, listen to the commentary of the vid I posted above. They were even stunned JK passed Slight for the win. I think it was a big deal for Honda. Yeah I'm sure there was other stuff that Tuxworth is referring to, but beating Aaron and taking away a 1-2 Honda championship wasn't just the last straw or a nail in the coffin, it was more like the pinewood, nails, and much of the hardware of said coffin. But who knows, I didn't follow his career like say NH, so much of what I know is from vids, occasional interviews, and he said she said reports.
 
Gaz, listen to the commentary of the vid I posted above. They were even stunned JK passed Slight for the win. I think it was a big deal for Honda. Yeah I'm sure there was other stuff that Tuxworth is referring to, but beating Aaron and taking away a 1-2 Honda championship wasn't just the last straw or a nail in the coffin, it was more like the pinewood, nails, and much of the hardware of said coffin. But who knows, I didn't follow his career like say NH, so much of what I know is from vids, occasional interviews, and he said she said reports.


Jums, when you look at commentary (not racing) of JK, one thing seems to be very clear which is that he was a prick to his team, team mates, media etc.

Because of your posts I have been reading some anecdotes and it is universal from what I read that to say he had a large ego and was difficult, may be to pleasant a description as he seems to have been far worse

Sure it was found towards the end that he was severely OCD which no doubt played it's part in his mannerisms and probably led to some misunderstanding between him being a prick and his OCD causing him to act as a prick.

There is one anecdote where he is said to have made comments at a media conference such that 'If had not won the world championship within 2 years then he should move on for another rider' and so on. Sounds good but the anecdotes make it less so given the apparent manner it was said and the audience as it came across far different (the anecdotes I read were public and media). Another where he sacked his motorhome driver who dared to use the motorhome toilet during a journey as JK was OCD Clean and it just upset his equilibrium.

That all said, take him away from racing and it seems that he has been extremely smart in his business dealings within Real Estate which is a major credit to him, his advisors or both (whomever is responsible), but with most stories saying it was all Kocinski, than more power.

I will be brutally honest and say that I did not like him as he was the young brash rider of the time and (from my view) was not just challenging but beating us Aussies (and he would beat Rainey, my personal second fave).

Never met him personally, know a few who say they have when he was racing but it was so long ago they genuinely cannot recall the interaction.

To see his name here again though is a blast from the past a bit, and the more I think of the manner in which he rode and was publically received I see parrallels with the likes of Spencer and even Stoner. Strange I know, but I do see some aspects that apply to all three of those guys (personally I do not rate Kocinski their equal however, more from a personality side I see some parallels)

It is always fun though going through the old videos, I occasionally check out the likes of Ruggia, Sarron, Chili and so on together with the old SBK stuff
 
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I can't watch your video here in Australia, so I'm not sure what angle it's from.

The ones Gaz posted show Rossi pass on the brakes as MM was lining up for the right hander at Turn 5, then in the second half of the hairpin MM tries to come inside Rossi, and his fairing hits VRs body/knee at the apex of the corner. This causes Rossi's Yam to twitch and drift away from the apex allowing MM to get alongside on the short run down to turn 6, but not past. This is the initial contact and you are saying VR instigated it?!



Really? Maybe your video shows a different angle, but watching Gaz's, especially frame by frame, I cannot see how you think VR instigated that. Firstly VR was cleanly and completely past into the first part of the hairpin. That is the clean pass I was referring to.

MM then tries to come back up the inside. MM's bike hitting VR causes the lunge you describe - you can see VR's foot on the left footpeg bounce at the point of contact and then the Yamaha's trajectory changes, drifting away from the racing line as it would if pushed wide by the contact. No-one at the time analysed this part of the incident and said it was VR's intiation of contact, because the evidence simply isn't there.

You say MM had enough corner speed to pass without the contact, but he was on the outside for the next corner - he have needed to have huge amounts more corner speed to pull that one off from where he was, cleanly, and the videos do not bear this out.

After that VR casts a very rapid glance to the side where he had just felt the impact from Márquez, and sees MM drifting back behind him. I would guess that he assumed MM would tuck in behind from there, but instead MM doesn't. For VR to have planned the 2nd contact he needed MM to do something unusual, ie leave his front wheel level with Rossi's rear, in VRs blind spot, knowing Rossi needed to drift right in order to follow the racing line and aim for the apex of Turn6.

According to David Emmett on MotoMatters at the time :


If you are basing your whole argument of VR being a dirty rider and hence planning on taking MM down in Sepang, on VR causing the initial contact in Argentina, I think your agrument is, at the very least, flawed. If you are referring to the 2nd contact, then there is no real way of knowing if VR deliberately moved into the space MM was in, but it's a risk that VR didn't need to take as the ensuing tangle could have taken both bikes down. I think both were racing incidents, TBH.

Deliberately causing a rider to crash is very rare as AntG says, and there is no evidence that VR has done, or tried to do, this before, so it's a hard argument to make for either Sepang or Argentina IMO.

Finally, you state making contact during an overtake is something that has "happened far too many times with Rossi for it to simply be just a racing incident." with a reference to him doing so with Hayden in Australia, 2010. I can find nothing on the net about that - I remember the battle for 3rd in the final laps, but nothing about any incident, contact or controversy.

If it really has happened so many times, as you state, surely the evidence would be easy to present. It does happen as "rubbing is racing", but personally I don't recall VR being any more likely to cause contact on an overtake than any other rider out there, now, or in the last 30 years
I am with you on the Argentina incident, although I didn't see it live and only in replay which makes it harder to make up your own mind.

VR is really smart, but not clairvoyant, and a "deliberate" take-out of MM would have required the latter as you have more or less said, VR caught up 4 seconds on MM and didn't have much trouble passing him, so he would have been relying on MM making a re-pass attempt which was quite unlikely to be successful and even less likely to stick for a take-out to be pre-meditated/planned. Going by the way MM rode in the second half of the season and what he said he had learned from the season at the conclusion of the season he would settle for second and the points if in a similar position in future.

That said, I don't think watching a replay of this incident and calling ill-intent on VR's part is more outrageous than claims by some of VR's fans about MM's riding at PI, Sepang and Valencia, or by VR himself about PI and Valencia, particularly the former race.
 
I am with you on the Argentina incident, although I didn't see it live and only in replay which makes it harder to make up your own mind.

VR is really smart, but not clairvoyant, and a "deliberate" take-out of MM would have required the latter as you have more or less said, VR caught up 4 seconds on MM and didn't have much trouble passing him, so he would have been relying on MM making a re-pass attempt which was quite unlikely to be successful and even less likely to stick for a take-out to be pre-meditated/planned. Going by the way MM rode in the second half of the season and what he said he had learned from the season at the conclusion of the season he would settle for second and the points if in a similar position in future.

That said, I don't think watching a replay of this incident and calling ill-intent on VR's part is more outrageous than claims by some of VR's fans about MM's riding at PI, Sepang and Valencia, or by VR himself about PI and Valencia, particularly the former race.
I'd agree it's no worse than some of the claims yellow horde have come out with over MM, not just at PI, Sepang & Valencia, but also at Argentina. You had people saying that MM was trying to intimidate Rossi, that it showed MM was a dirty rider, or even saying that the second contact was deliberate from MM and could have injured Rossi.

However, JPS seems to feel that the first contact in Turn 5 was initiated by VR, was deliberate and that consequently it was proof that VR intended to crash MM both in Argentina at Turn 6 and also in Sepang. That's a whole lot of reaching in my book.
 
I'd agree it's no worse than some of the claims yellow horde have come out with over MM, not just at PI, Sepang & Valencia, but also at Argentina. You had people saying that MM was trying to intimidate Rossi, that it showed MM was a dirty rider, or even saying that the second contact was deliberate from MM and could have injured Rossi.

However, JPS seems to feel that the first contact in Turn 5 was initiated by VR, was deliberate and that consequently it was proof that VR intended to crash MM both in Argentina at Turn 6 and also in Sepang. That's a whole lot of reaching in my book.

Sorry dude, if you look at the contact in mid-corner in Argentina, you will see Rossi making a move into MM that makes absolutely no sense. That alone was extremely questionable, and had shades of Motegi 2010 in it.

Rewatch Phillip Island 2010, and you will see the move on Hayden. It was just chalked to VR being a real daring racer and all that .........

My point still remains, has any world champion rider initiated as much contact with other riders than VR?

VR has used contact as a way to unsettle riders or try and win a race.
 
I said it back then and still believe the same. Rossi used the advantages his bike gave him to make a move that hung Marquez out with no place to go. Since he had the lead at that moment, i say it was sketchy but acceptable and Marquez was a ....... for fighting the inevitable. Him saying he thinks he could have beaten Rossi is plain goofy after giving up a 4 second lead, unless he did it on purpose to add drama to the race. If thats the case, hopefully he learned a lesson, dont race unless you have to. If you can win by 5 seconds, win by 5 seconds.
 
. If you can win by 5 seconds, win by 5 seconds.

But that is not racing, it is just boring and a time trial.

Or so some want us to believe (unless their rider does it of course ;) )




If a rider can win by 30 seconds because that rider and bike package have had that level of perfection ........ more power to them.
 
Sorry dude, if you look at the contact in mid-corner in Argentina, you will see Rossi making a move into MM that makes absolutely no sense. That alone was extremely questionable, and had shades of Motegi 2010 in it.

Rewatch Phillip Island 2010, and you will see the move on Hayden. It was just chalked to VR being a real daring racer and all that .........

My point still remains, has any world champion rider initiated as much contact with other riders than VR?

VR has used contact as a way to unsettle riders or try and win a race.

Nope, I looked at the contact in Turn 5 and the video, together with the laws of physics support the fact that Marquez' bike collided with Rossi's body. The Yams trajectory was roughly on the racing line around the apex of the second part of the hairpin. Once contact had been made you saw Rossi's body lurch and his left foot bounce off the foot peg. At the same time the trajectory of the Yam changed and became wider of the apex. At no time did the trajectory of the Yam tighten as would have been necessary for VR to initiate contact. What I think you are seeing is Rossi's lurch as coming first and being the cause, where as in reality it came second and was the reaction.

I've never seen anyone crazy enough to deliberately lurch their body into the fairing of a bike coming underneath them. Firstly it's unlikely to unsettle your opponents bike one iota, due to the gyroscopic forces involved and secondly it seriously risks you coming off your bike.

I'm on a horribly expensive mobile broadband 3G dongle thing from Telstra as I'm home in Oz for a couple of months so can't watch the whole of PI 2010. I did watch the highlights on MotoGP.com and I saw no contact in the overtakes it showed between VR & NH.

Surely, as you are again repeating that no other WC has initiated so much contact with other riders as VR, you can come up with some examples other than Motegi & PI 2010? Maybe some with footage easily available like there is for all of the incidents I listed up thread.
 
Nope, I looked at the contact in Turn 5 and the video, together with the laws of physics support the fact that Marquez' bike collided with Rossi's body. The Yams trajectory was roughly on the racing line around the apex of the second part of the hairpin. Once contact had been made you saw Rossi's body lurch and his left foot bounce off the foot peg. At the same time the trajectory of the Yam changed and became wider of the apex. At no time did the trajectory of the Yam tighten as would have been necessary for VR to initiate contact. What I think you are seeing is Rossi's lurch as coming first and being the cause, where as in reality it came second and was the reaction.

I've never seen anyone crazy enough to deliberately lurch their body into the fairing of a bike coming underneath them. Firstly it's unlikely to unsettle your opponents bike one iota, due to the gyroscopic forces involved and secondly it seriously risks you coming off your bike.

I'm on a horribly expensive mobile broadband 3G dongle thing from Telstra as I'm home in Oz for a couple of months so can't watch the whole of PI 2010. I did watch the highlights on MotoGP.com and I saw no contact in the overtakes it showed between VR & NH.

Surely, as you are again repeating that no other WC has initiated so much contact with other riders as VR, you can come up with some examples other than Motegi & PI 2010? Maybe some with footage easily available like there is for all of the incidents I listed up thread.

Trust me, Rossi moved before the contact actually happened. It is very difficult to pickup, but it is there.

Why is it so outrageous for Rossi to have done such a thing? He essentially did the same ....... thing in Assen. He knew MM was going to try a move going into the final chicane, and put himself at risk, especially when MM had been bowling guys over.

In fact why is it even outrageous when one considers what he did to Gibernau and then Lorenzo in 2010. Hell go back to 1997 when he kicked another rider's bike.

Every WC rider in recent memory has made contact at some point with another rider, but VR seems to have had more incidents than I can recall with other riders.

The fairest rider of the more recent world champions was Stoner. I never saw him do anything stupid in terms of trying to squeeze guys out the way VR has done for years. Even his insane overtake on Lorenzo at the kink on the main straight at Laguna Seca, he gave plenty of room in spite of going for that overtake.

The point is Rossi has NEVER shied away from contact with other riders at various times through his career.
 
Cool story bro.

I've always had a lot of sympathy for Kocinski. Loved his 1990 WC (250s ....... rule(d)), loved his SBK title and having the giant of the sport Raney bagging you couldn't have made it easy. It alsi seemed he was the prototype for the journo driven paddock-object-of-mockery that started seriously infesting the coverage.

But!
1993 Assen TT was where the incident Gaz reports on supposedly occurred.
Came third. The (apocryphal) tale is he stopped on the cool down lap, revved it to the moon and dumped it in 1st. Left it out on the track. Didn't attend podium.
Suzuki and Lucky Strike not happy (strange that) and sacked him.
Luckily, for us and for Lil' John, Cagiva were already looking to get rid of Mladin, so JK got a 593 for the last few rounds of 93. With that first dry win at LS...brill
 
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But!
1993 Assen TT was where the incident Gaz reports on supposedly occurred.
Came third. The (apocryphal) tale is he stopped on the cool down lap, revved it to the moon and dumped it in 1st. Left it out on the track. Didn't attend podium.
Suzuki and Lucky Strike not happy (strange that) and sacked him.
Luckily, for us and for Lil' John, Cagiva were already looking to get rid of Mladin, so JK got a 593 for the last few rounds of 93. With that first dry win at LS...brill



That'd be it.

Thanks doc :)
 
That'd be it.

Thanks doc :)


Sorry Jums, but for all his mercurial talent which he had in spades, I simply cannot look past his deliberate lunching of the Suzuki 250cc bike...

And that's why you can't accept Kocinski? Because there's an unsubstantiated rumor that he grenaded a Suzuki 250 (that probably was a POS)? How do you feel about John Hopkins then? Haha. Jesus, I thought Lil John had ran a rider wide and kicked him or something for you to be so upset at the lad. :)
 
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And that's why you can't accept Kocinski? Because there's an unsubstantiated rumor that he grenaded a Suzuki 250 (that probably was a POS)? How do you feel about John Hopkins then? Haha. Jesus, I thought Lil John had ran a rider wide and kicked him or something for you to be so upset at the lad. :)

Jums, back when it happened it was far more than unsubstantiated rumour

Suzuki made comments (well after the event)

Others made comments

And Kocinski himself was said to have made comments 'not denying' the accusation

It is no different to why I do not like Capirossi ............ I cannot look beyond the Harada incident and with Kocinski, the grenading of the Suzuki just went with the impressions I had and still have.

He may be a nicer guy now that he is away from the sport, and if so then excellent but anecdotes couples with stories told to me by officials weigh on my mind.
 
Jums, back when it happened it was far more than unsubstantiated rumour

Suzuki made comments (well after the event)

Others made comments

And Kocinski himself was said to have made comments 'not denying' the accusation

It is no different to why I do not like Capirossi ............ I cannot look beyond the Harada incident and with Kocinski, the grenading of the Suzuki just went with the impressions I had and still have.

He may be a nicer guy now that he is away from the sport, and if so then excellent but anecdotes couples with stories told to me by officials weigh on my mind.
Wait, you have similar feeling for a guy who grenaded a 250 motorcycle after a race where perhaps he felt he could have won except for the ...... machine to a guy who deliberately crashed out another rider to preserve a points lead to secure a cheated championship? Again, how do you feel about John Hopkins then? Sounds a bit harsh to me.

Edit: just looked up 93 250cc race on motogp vid pass. Mothafuckers don't have it in the archive. Damn it. They used to have it. Not anymore. And what happened to full races, they only have highlights of other races that year. Vid pass has gone to .....
 
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Wait, you have similar feeling for a guy who grenaded a 250 motorcycle after a race where perhaps he felt he could have won except for the ...... machine to a guy who deliberately crashed out another rider to preserve a points lead to secure a cheated championship? Again, how do you feel about John Hopkins then? Sounds a bit harsh to me.

Edit: just looked up 93 250cc race on motogp vid pass. Mothafuckers don't have it in the archive. Damn it. They used to have it. Not anymore. And what happened to full races, they only have highlights of other races that year. Vid pass has gone to .....

With Hopkins I am actually nether here nor there .........

I was not impressed with his attitude at times when on the Suzuki (the time he is said to have sat out a race due to 'being under the weather) and nor did I fully support his chase for the dollar to Kawasaki (do not blame him however - yes, hypocritical), but I admired his sheer desire and will on a motorbike. Personally I have enjoyed watching him more in the BSB than I did at MotoGP but that may be because he gets more air time than he did in MGP.

To my knowledge, Hopkins has not deliberately destroyed another riders chance or the machinery which he had been provided, although it has let him down numerous times and if he learnt how to kick (lessons from Yates required perhaps) I do think he may have damaged a fairing.

Further with Hopkins (and maybe this thread needs to change name) but I do seriously rate his sheer bravery at times well up there, perhaps even stupid or idiotic in that he rode when so injured much to the detriment of his own health.

My only serious question with Hopkins was more in his first few years where I saw immaturity which is why I have greatly enjoyed his riding in BSB where he has taken some seriously hard racers and schooled them to a degree.
 
Wait, you have similar feeling for a guy who grenaded a 250 motorcycle after a race where perhaps he felt he could have won except for the ...... machine to a guy who deliberately crashed out another rider to preserve a points lead to secure a cheated championship? Again, how do you feel about John Hopkins then? Sounds a bit harsh to me.

Simple, yes.

Both showed total disregard for others (riders, mechanics, team) and were entirely selfish in that disregard.

If a guy you worked with destroyed a computer because it was to slow or did not perform as they wanted I suspect that he would not be employed for long (and again, read of Kocinski, the grenading was a final straw from all reports)
 
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