Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
Not much grabbing me here... Maybe winter testing will bring me around.
Joined Sep 2007
2K Posts | 60+
here
And as I said at the time. why would he take that risk. He was catching at a rate of knots and there were plenty of laps to go. Why would VR risk going down the road for some imagined payback for a move that MM made on him which was a copy of the one he made on CS? You are seriously reaching here, IMO.
At the end of the day Rossi was past when MM came back at him and then contact was made. For it to be a deliberate punt why would VR pass him cleanly then have to rely on MM trying for a re-pass in order to "deliberately" take him out? What if MM had conceded after the initial pass? Seems way too convoluted to me,
Regarding Sepang, when MM accelerated he was as close to the edge of the track as he got - VR pushed him no further and at around the same time as MM accelerated VR looked ahead and accelerated too. So he defo realised at the point of acceleration how close to the track edge VR was going to push him because he was there. VR headed out of the corner, loosely following the track edge rather than heading more for the inside of the track as MM did. The apex had long been missed and the racing line after the corner is toward the outer edge of the track, so VRs route after the incident was not unlike that which a rider would take having run seriously wide at that corner.
This is where Gaz and michaelm's supposition that MM still has some vision issues begin to make sense. Possibly, allegedly, etc.
Regarding not cedeing an inch being foreign to MM - your 'avin a larf
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
And as I said at the time. why would he take that risk. He was catching at a rate of knots and there were plenty of laps to go. Why would VR risk going down the road for some imagined payback for a move that MM made on him which was a copy of the one he made on CS? You are seriously reaching here, IMO.
At the end of the day Rossi was past when MM came back at him and then contact was made. For it to be a deliberate punt why would VR pass him cleanly then have to rely on MM trying for a re-pass in order to "deliberately" take him out? What if MM had conceded after the initial pass? Seems way too convoluted to me,
Regarding Sepang, when MM accelerated he was as close to the edge of the track as he got - VR pushed him no further and at around the same time as MM accelerated VR looked ahead and accelerated too. So he defo realised at the point of acceleration how close to the track edge VR was going to push him because he was there. VR headed out of the corner, loosely following the track edge rather than heading more for the inside of the track as MM did. The apex had long been missed and the racing line after the corner is toward the outer edge of the track, so VRs route after the incident was not unlike that which a rider would take having run seriously wide at that corner.
This is where Gaz and michaelm's supposition that MM still has some vision issues begin to make sense. Possibly, allegedly, etc.
Regarding not cedeing an inch being foreign to MM - your 'avin a larf
Sepang proved just how far VR is willing to go. The contact he made with MM in the corner at Argentina during the overtake was something he is notorious for doing.
This is why I think much of his past cannot be overlooked.
No premier class world champion in recent memory has made more contact with other riders on the track than VR. That is not a good thing. Much of it was chalked up as "racing" but I don't see it this way at all. Much, if not all of it was all calculated contact.
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
Crab Key
Interesting post JPS. And not in a Willski way.
I'm with you in that Marquez was incredulous that Rossi was going to continue to run him wide. At some point he thought he could turn in.....but no, that wasn't happening.
I've said it before, but that race was ....... amazing until VR's brain-snap. Rossi fans would have been howling with glee had VR managed to gap Marquez at Sepang. Quite rightly, too.
Instead, we got a complete wtf!? moment.
I still can't believe I read comments on boards that MM deliberately binned it.
Great race. ...... up by petulance
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
This is my problem with posting pictures of VR alongside MM, what gets left out of the discussion of whether MM should have seen it, is that everyone is analyzing what MM should have done based on what the outcome was.
When VR was alongside MM and looking back at him, I was absolutely incredulous!
I have never seen such a thing happen under race conditions, and that's as a fan.
Now imagine being on the bike and being in MM's shoes where you likely have never had a competitor ever do such a thing like that. The idea that he isn't going to budge wouldn't even process for most people.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Wait wait, the Rossi fans are not upset with dirty race fixing Petrucci? Surely magnitude has nothing to do with it, it's the principle of deliberately helping or hindering a contender with the intent of effecting the title. Where are all the new boppers joining the site to voice their concerns and angry admonishments toward Petrucci? He has admitted to race fixing! This is the equivalent to cheating, juicing, doping, betting on the sport.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Race-fixing only occurs when VR doesn't benefit.
All those years where VR was given preferred winner status by Dorna happened to be perfectly acceptable because he was seen as the only worthy rider by his the boppers.
I mean jesus christ, we had TIRES being altered to suit the needs of VR to the detriment of the entire field, and this is all considered normal by his fans!
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Post Valencia race: Rossi's press conference where he goes completely JFK on Marc's integrity. Watch Rossi openly accuse Marquez of title fixing in detail. Scenes never seen in this sport, but worse, watch how Rossi's McCarthyist assessment of Marquez goes relatively unchallenged! The first reporter's reaction is pure comedy (and scary as it indicates the lack of objectivity and presence of mind as to the gravity of the moment). She seems so concerned for the emotions of Rossi's friends who she says look "devastated by the loss". Her probing question after she just heard the voice of the sport questioned the validity of the championship is to ask what words of encouragement he has for Uccio? Are you shitting me!? Rossi accuses the former 2 time reining champion of the last two years of dubiously finagling with the authenticity of the title, and her big question to Rossi is how he will lift spirits of his homies, hahaha. For real? Only one reporter mildly challenges Rossi on his dastardly assessment of Marc but only does it by telling him what Marquez said, giving Rossi an easy out with little follow up. This press conference is 10 minutes long. Its almost like everyone in the room is scared to call ........ on him, which frankly based on his weak logic, would have been easy to challenge the man. This reminds me of when politicians agree to a sit down interview with a friendly reporter to ask the "hard questions" which are pre choreographed worded questions to give the politician a way to get his message out. Except this was a press conference with multiple reporters who you would think are at liberty to take a person to task in light of such extraordinary accusations. Yet it was treated as a run of the mill post race debrief as if nothing astounding, sensational, or exceptional was coming out of the mouth of the sport's greatest figure. Krops manages to try and get the conversation back onto Marquez after that laughable first question to his credit. But basically Rossi's accusations went relatively unchallenged.
Watch "Full Rossi Post Race Media Debrief" on YouTube
Petrucci openly tried to CANCEL the punishment that Rossi was issued for deliberately crashing out a fellow competitor! That is, Petrucci's action SUBVERTED an official action by the League. There is no way around this fact. It was an act of defiant SUBVERSION.
I wonder if the sport's media will take Petrucci to task despite his likeable character and be made to answer for his admitted attempt at title fixing. It matters not the magnitude but the principle of such an action on his part. Is there an explicit rule that Petrucci broke? Certainly the League thought Marquez was engaging in dishonest racing without breaking a rule, but had he admitted to deliberately slowing Rossi down would this be punishable? If so, in the interest of maintaining the integrity of the sport, what will Petrucci ' s punishment be? If Petrucci engaged in this cheater activity how will the League address it? Will it just be swept under the rug as something that was a non issue because it was perceived to be a moot point, as he has justified his actions? Perhaps riders can engage in just a little cheating then. Maybe just a little doping, or a little betting on the outcome of races. Does it matter if he bets $2 or $20,000? Petrucci says he helped Rossi, what if Marquez makes that attempt to pass and accidentally crashed out Lorenzo, would Rossi’s title be legitimate given Petrucci (and likely others) made it easy for Rossi to arrive in 4th? This whole episode is about Rossi accusing another rider of deliberately engaging in rigging, that is engaging to conspire an unfair advantage to another rider, this is exactly what Petrucci just admitted to doing. He provided Rossi an unfair advantage. This is yet another perversion of racing if this is allowed to stand. Think about this, if Petrucci can do it, what's stopping every friend of Rossi from doing it next year? How much cheating is acceptable? Will those official voices in our sport who in no uncertain terms made their opinions known about Marquez engaging in dubious racing (on a hunch, as a matter of faith and nothing more) now call out Petrucci for cheating?
Watch "Full Rossi Post Race Media Debrief" on YouTube
Petrucci openly tried to CANCEL the punishment that Rossi was issued for deliberately crashing out a fellow competitor! That is, Petrucci's action SUBVERTED an official action by the League. There is no way around this fact. It was an act of defiant SUBVERSION.
I wonder if the sport's media will take Petrucci to task despite his likeable character and be made to answer for his admitted attempt at title fixing. It matters not the magnitude but the principle of such an action on his part. Is there an explicit rule that Petrucci broke? Certainly the League thought Marquez was engaging in dishonest racing without breaking a rule, but had he admitted to deliberately slowing Rossi down would this be punishable? If so, in the interest of maintaining the integrity of the sport, what will Petrucci ' s punishment be? If Petrucci engaged in this cheater activity how will the League address it? Will it just be swept under the rug as something that was a non issue because it was perceived to be a moot point, as he has justified his actions? Perhaps riders can engage in just a little cheating then. Maybe just a little doping, or a little betting on the outcome of races. Does it matter if he bets $2 or $20,000? Petrucci says he helped Rossi, what if Marquez makes that attempt to pass and accidentally crashed out Lorenzo, would Rossi’s title be legitimate given Petrucci (and likely others) made it easy for Rossi to arrive in 4th? This whole episode is about Rossi accusing another rider of deliberately engaging in rigging, that is engaging to conspire an unfair advantage to another rider, this is exactly what Petrucci just admitted to doing. He provided Rossi an unfair advantage. This is yet another perversion of racing if this is allowed to stand. Think about this, if Petrucci can do it, what's stopping every friend of Rossi from doing it next year? How much cheating is acceptable? Will those official voices in our sport who in no uncertain terms made their opinions known about Marquez engaging in dubious racing (on a hunch, as a matter of faith and nothing more) now call out Petrucci for cheating?
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Joined Sep 2007
2K Posts | 60+
here
Hang on, aren't you ignoring the fact that Rossi's overtake was clean and the Argentinian incident happened (MM's front wheel and VRs rear made contact.) when MM came back at him. Sepang happened. It is not a license to re-write previous history.
Your hyperbole about more contact than any other recent WC - really? How about offering up some facts to go with that?
In his top class (500/MotoGP) career, the incidents (not necessarily causing a crash) I can remember that VR's been involved in where IMO an argument can be made for it being, or it is obvious that it was VRs fault are:
2015 MM, Sepang
2011 CS, Jerez,
2010 JL, Motegi,
2008 CS Laguna,
2005 SG, Valencia
Ones where it is a serious reach to argue it's VR's fault, IMHO
2015 MM, Assen
2015 MM, Argentina
2011, MS, Sepang
2011 AB, Valencia
2001 MB, Suzuka
50-50
2013 AB, Mugello - note VR blamed AB, AB was very neutral, reporting contact but not assigning blame, so this probably belongs in the previous category.
I don't have an encyclopedic memory, but the above is hardly a list that stands out, given VRs 14 years in the top class.
Which incidents are you thinking of? You must have a list as you are apparently convinced that in most if not all of cases the contact VR caused was calculated - ie not just that he caused the incident, but that it was deliberate. :unsure:
Sure, he has taken out less riders than anyone on a per capita basis, in the time I have followed the sport, except perhaps Stoner in the premier class although the one crash caused by Stoner had rather severe consequences in terms of injuries to other riders.
Nothing at all arguable about Valencia 2006, Jerez 2011, or Sepang 2015 imo; you can quibble about the final mechanism at Sepang, but definitely entirely a result of a non-racing move by Rossi. He actually didn't take Stoner out at LS 08; Stoner actually put the bike down and said it was his own error due to inattention; I think Stoner had reason for discontent about the Corskcrew 08 incident since Rossi overcooked it and the result would have been a high speed collision but for Stoner saving the situation, but it was an error and did not eventually result in contact. I don't have much problem with Motegi 2010, just with the hypocrisy of some who acclaimed Rossi's riding in that race but now condemn MM for his riding in the end of season races; the hypocrites include Rossi himself imo. Hard for me to know about the incidents with Biaggi since I had a prejudice against Max preceding Rossi's entry to the premier class due to his contretemps with Doohan.
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That is about how I remember it Yam although for some strange reason I am thinking another during the ducati years - but it may be someone taking VR down that then took Hayden down - into a left corner off the start line.
IMO only, VR is not a 'clean' rider as he races hard and can be extremely hard where he makes you decide whether you really want to 'push the point for position', much as Doohan and the likes of those era did, but I would not call him dirty.
BTW, I realise that you included 2011 Sepang but if anyone genuinely felt that VR was to blame there than I suggest that those people have a serious psychological issue
Also De Puniet at Assen 2008, but that was a pure riding error on cold tyres on the first lap, with nothing Machiavellian involved (there are those who would perhaps see some irony in the subject of Machiavelli's famous "The Prince" substantially being Duke Valentino, aka Cesare Borgia).
I don't think the incident involving Edwards and Hayden when he was at Ducati was his fault, although he did lose it a bit towards the end of 2011 and I remember a rather optimistic attempt to overtake the field in the first corner in another late season race which caused no problems more by good luck than good management.
I would classify only Jerez 2005 and Sepang 2015 as unequivocally dirty, although perhaps some incidents with Biaggi could be seen differently with a perspective different than I had at the time. Jerez 2011 was just egregiously stupid if perhaps somewhat motivated by Stoner being his direct oppponent. LS 2008 and Motegi 2010 are only problematic imo if VR or supporters of his wish to take MM to task for Sepang 2015.
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Joined Sep 2007
2K Posts | 60+
here
I was sure there was a DePuniet one where he lowsided into him, just couldn't remember where or when. Although un-intended, it was still Rossi's fault, as Jerez 2011 was.
I really don't remember an incident with Edwards & Hayden (too many years drinking Sav Blanc possibly
). Remind me, where / when was that?Regarding LS 2008, I was really referring to the corkscrew incident - without quick thinking and reactions from CS, VR would have skittled him. I'd agree that VR can't be blamed for Stoner's actual off track excursion at Laguna, except from a "mind games" POV, having hassled him so much to stop him riding away into the lead. But JPS thinks VR deliberately caused the Argentina incident this year, so....
I was trying to list all the incidents I could remember where Rossi was at fault in order to try to see if I could make any sense of JPS's comments. Motegi 2010 was a race that people have complained about, in particular the other rider in the battle, so it was in there; same with Laguna 2008.
I'd agree that Jerez 2005 was dirty and, as you know, I am in two minds as to how dirty Sepang 2015 actually was - yes VR was in the wrong and the penalty was justified under the rules, but to say he had an intent to cause MM to crash, not so, IMO.
Those that witter about VR kicking the brake lever need lessons in the laws of physics IMO. With the lever guard in place there is no way to get a foot inbetween the guard and the lever, especially when you are looking forward and your bike is accelerating (how ever little) away from the other bike. Even assuming it was possible to get it in there, how to get it out without getting it stuck and causing yourself to crash as well, becomes the next challenge!
It's why I have given much more serious consideration to you and Gaz thinking MM's vision still has issues - the fact MM claimed that the impossible had happened and Honda claimed they had data to show it had happened but then conveniently didn't want to release that data as it would pour fuel on the fire... It makes a lot more sense if MM & his employer are trying to draw attention away from the odd fact that MM appeared to deliberately ride into another bike at close to walking speeds, given his obvious skill on a bike. If he did have even occasional vision issues, and it came out, I presume he'd lose his race license...
Sometimes the impossible does happen though cf MM cutting the wire on Dani's bike last year; just because that incident was freakish doesn't let MM off imo, he was following Dani too closely for no apparent reason and with no room for error, and could as easily have hit Dani's wheel. As I have said, whatever happened in the end at Sepang was Rossi's fault also imo, he shouldn't have been there, and can't presume how MM will react to such a non-racing move. I don't believe he deliberately kicked out, or that he deliberately kicked the brake lever in particular, but the contact was due to Rossi's move and once it occurred became uncontrolled; even if MM's response was due to him being startled Valentino is still the cause.I was sure there was a DePuniet one where he lowsided into him, just couldn't remember where or when. Although un-intended, it was still Rossi's fault, as Jerez 2011 was.
I really don't remember an incident with Edwards & Hayden (too many years drinking Sav Blanc possibly
Regarding LS 2008, I was really referring to the corkscrew incident - without quick thinking and reactions from CS, VR would have skittled him. I'd agree that VR can't be blamed for Stoner's actual off track excursion at Laguna, except from a "mind games" POV, having hassled him so much to stop him riding away into the lead. But JPS thinks VR deliberately caused the Argentina incident this year, so....
I was trying to list all the incidents I could remember where Rossi was at fault in order to try to see if I could make any sense of JPS's comments. Motegi 2010 was a race that people have complained about, in particular the other rider in the battle, so it was in there; same with Laguna 2008.
I'd agree that Jerez 2005 was dirty and, as you know, I am in two minds as to how dirty Sepang 2015 actually was - yes VR was in the wrong and the penalty was justified under the rules, but to say he had an intent to cause MM to crash, not so, IMO.
Those that witter about VR kicking the brake lever need lessons in the laws of physics IMO. With the lever guard in place there is no way to get a foot inbetween the guard and the lever, especially when you are looking forward and your bike is accelerating (how ever little) away from the other bike. Even assuming it was possible to get it in there, how to get it out without getting it stuck and causing yourself to crash as well, becomes the next challenge!
It's why I have given much more serious consideration to you and Gaz thinking MM's vision still has issues - the fact MM claimed that the impossible had happened and Honda claimed they had data to show it had happened but then conveniently didn't want to release that data as it would pour fuel on the fire... It makes a lot more sense if MM & his employer are trying to draw attention away from the odd fact that MM appeared to deliberately ride into another bike at close to walking speeds, given his obvious skill on a bike. If he did have even occasional vision issues, and it came out, I presume he'd lose his race license...
(EDIT Pinot Gris in my case. I think there was an incident with Spies and Lorenzo in 2011)
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Joined Sep 2007
2K Posts | 60+
here
Indeed, the improbable can happen such as MM cutting that wire on DP's bike. Freakish is possible, however the impossible is genuinely just that. Kicking MM's brake lever was not possible. Rossi was at fault for taking MM to the edge of the track. MM's reaction of riding straight into Rossi's bike, at such slow speeds that he had plenty of time to consider the 70m of tarmac runoff available, made no sense unless you consider vision issues or deliberate self takedown for whatever reason....
Regarding Spies - was that Motegi 2011? Lorenzo not involved, but possibly the incident you were thinking of. If you have MotoGP.com coverage :
MotoGP?
BTW, did you remember anything more on the Hayden/Edwards/Rossi incident tickling your mind?
So we'll add that Spies/Rossi incident to the ones I remebered, plus DePuniet and that'll be a total of seven incidents we can lay squarely (or otherwise) at VRs door in 14 years. .... me, what a dirty crash-happy rider - the worst record of any WC in recent years... Or not.
JPS, your turn....
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Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Yamaka46, you're the homie but brother, make a list titled: DELIBERATE ACTION TO CRASH A RIDER. Then start to tally. See what you come up with.
Edit: I didn't realize you also subscribe to the explanation that Marquez crashed himself out while Rossi initiated the action to crash out Marquez. In that case you render the list absolutely useless. All you have to say is no crash ever was intentional. Even with the astonishing admission that Rossi DELIBERATELY initiated an action that resulted in Marquez crashing, you not only believe Rossi at his word that he didn't "mean" for Marquez to crash, you go a step further and say, Marquez crashed into Rossi. Wow that is awesome.
Zidane did not headbutt Materazzi, no no. It was Materazzi who walked into Zindane's head. To shed light on this notion of who is the most dangerous aggressive dirty players let's make a list of how many times Materazzi has walked and accidentally bumped into fellow players and tally that against how many times players have accidentally bumped into Zidane. That's what this tally amounts to. EXCEPT it's meaningless because you refuse to see it for what it is: Rossi DELIBERATELY crashed out Marquez at Sepang. Period.
Edit: I didn't realize you also subscribe to the explanation that Marquez crashed himself out while Rossi initiated the action to crash out Marquez. In that case you render the list absolutely useless. All you have to say is no crash ever was intentional. Even with the astonishing admission that Rossi DELIBERATELY initiated an action that resulted in Marquez crashing, you not only believe Rossi at his word that he didn't "mean" for Marquez to crash, you go a step further and say, Marquez crashed into Rossi. Wow that is awesome.
Zidane did not headbutt Materazzi, no no. It was Materazzi who walked into Zindane's head. To shed light on this notion of who is the most dangerous aggressive dirty players let's make a list of how many times Materazzi has walked and accidentally bumped into fellow players and tally that against how many times players have accidentally bumped into Zidane. That's what this tally amounts to. EXCEPT it's meaningless because you refuse to see it for what it is: Rossi DELIBERATELY crashed out Marquez at Sepang. Period.
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Joined Oct 2008
6K Posts | 5K+
In Cider
This is where we disagree Y46, and where peoples perception is often one sided. You make a point of saying that Marquez deliberately moved into the side of Rossi but fail to put it into the context that he was in the position to begin with because Rossi deliberately moved into the side of Marquez to push him out.
I still maintain that while Marquez may have turned into Rossi, it was with the intent of undercutting Rossi to get back onto the racing line, and not to bang fairings with him.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
It's quite amazing this is even debatable. But that's the odd world that Rossi fandom has created. A world where too many 'clean' overtaking moves is 'dirty' racing. Where not being able to pass a rider who's pattern of winning, won 7 flag to flag races, is proof of protecting him. Where winning a ....... race against the guy you are supposedly protecting is the spark that initiated all this suspicion. Its futile to argue with someone that believes Marquez is at fault in any shape or form once Rossi made the deliberate surprise attack on him to take him off the race line and while there manipulated the speed and position of his machine ultimately causing the victim to crash.
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