Petrucci admits to letting Rossi by at Valencia

moto vudu said:

Premeditated illegal attack? Lol, you're really reaching on that one. You think before the race Rossi was sitting with his team planning on running Marc wide? Exactly how much was premeditated? IMO, Rossi never attacked Marc at all... he slowed ran him close to the edge of the track. After that Marc made a decision to turn into Rossi and made contact. Marc simply got the worse of that contact. Rossi was punished for his role in the incident so as far as I'm concerned it's a dead issue.

Rossi is in good shape going into 2016. For the first half of last season he really struggled with his qualifying, but his race pace was excellent. Towards of the of the season he finally started to qualify better. If Rossi can qualify well next year, I like his chances to challenge for the title again.

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Except that qualifying better didn't seem to help him, he out qualified Jorge at Sepang after all and couldn't stay ahead of him, and was beaten by Dani Pedrosa in 4 of the last 5 races, despite qualifying better than he did early season. Dani is presumably not going to miss several early season races for arm pump surgery either in 2016, although a different physical malady is always on the cards for that unfortunate rider.

So even if you are correct and VR may be better placed against Jorge, he will have to beat Dani and even more so a highly motivated (significantly by him) MM who showed signs in the second half of the season of being capable of more judicious race strategies.

Anyway, we shall see, that is why they have the races.

michaelm said:

Except that qualifying better didn't seem to help him, he out qualified Jorge at Sepang after all and couldn't stay ahead of him, and was beaten by Dani Pedrosa in 4 of the last 5 races, despite qualifying better than he did early season. Dani is presumably not going to miss several early season races for arm pump surgery either in 2016, although a different physical malady is always on the cards for that unfortunate rider.

So even if you are correct and VR may be better placed against Jorge, he will have to beat Dani and even more so a highly motivated (significantly by him) MM who showed signs in the second half of the season of being capable of more judicious race strategies.

Anyway, we shall see, that is why they have the races.

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Right, the races will sort it out. It was a bit late when Rossi finally did start to get his qualifying issues worked out. If he could've qualified well right from the start, his points lead would've been bigger by the time they got to Sepang.

moto vudu said:

It's absolutely ridiculous to think it's okay for a non-championship contender to set his sights on a championship contender to do nothing more than attempt to disrupt his race pace. We're not talking about simply racing a championship contender, but purposely attempting to slow him down to give advantage to another rival.

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This your opinion, not established fact, and the contretemps probably gained VR 3 points rather than costing him anything.

A problem for VR which far outweighed anything MM may have done, even theoretically, was the Aragon race where Pedrosa finished 2nd to his third, Motegi where Pedrosa won to his second, PI where Iannone finished 3rd to his 4th, and Dani beating him at Sepang and Valencia.

michaelm said:

Revelation 4. If Rossi had not punted MM at Sepang and not received a penalty, he still would have finished 4th at Valencia and more than likely at Sepang as well, and lost the championship by 8 points rather than 5.

As David Emmett said, his problem was that he needed to subcontract beating Lorenzo to MM, yet abused him for actually doing so at PI, which is why some including David Emmett have called that a momentary lapse of reason.

Valentino also lost the championship because Iannone beat him at PI and Pedrosa beat him in 4 late season races other than PI; whatever MM did at Sepang or Valencia would have been irrelevant had VR not lost those points to the other two.

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You need glasses. Marquez was run wide and was the one who caused the contact. Why not put aside your massive personal hate for Valentino aside for 30 seconds, play it frame by frame to see who causes the contact. Your own countryman (Doohan) says Marquez opened the throttle and turned into Rossi. I think I'd rather put more stock in what Mick Doohan says rather than you with an obvious bias.

michaelm said:

Absolutely spot on. Since as Jumkie says there are only 4 contenders to start with, the logical end point of this nonsensical line of reasoning is for all but the factory Honda and Yamaha bikes to stay parked in pit lane, where this year the 2nd HRC bike could have joined them after Dani missed those races.

Thank you for succinctly making the basic point in the whole saga, which as you say which was Rossi "punting and crashing Marquez early on with an obvious non-racing move" as you say.

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If you seriously think this is 'spot on' you know nothing about racing, and your credibility just took a hit. I have never heard of a rider/driver of in any form of motorsport who is mathematically eliminated in a championship attempt to get involved in a title battle down the stretch with 1-2 races remaining if he is incapable of staying with the leaders. Until Sepang this was unheard of. Up until this comment, you had my respect only because you were weakly try to remain 'impartial' but you need to pick up your mask that dropped to the ground.

paparazzo said:

If you seriously think this is 'spot on' you know nothing about racing, and your credibility just took a hit. I have never heard of a rider/driver of in any form of motorsport who is mathematically eliminated in a championship attempt to get involved in a title battle down the stretch with 1-2 races remaining if he is incapable of staying with the leaders. Until Sepang this was unheard of. Up until this comment, you had my respect only because you were weakly try to remain 'impartial' but you need to pick up your mask that dropped to the ground.

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Watch the Motegi 2010 race as you have been told repeatedly, and read the rest of the Mick Doohan interview you cite in the preceding post.

Since you again demonstrate your complete unfamiliarity with the principles of logical debate and with logic itself, my argument in the first paragraph of the post you cite is known as reductio ad absurdum, but actually is the logical endpoint of your argument, which you haven't refuted and can't refute.

Again your main argument in your post is argumentum ad hominem, as well as counting assumption as fact since you don't know what MM would have been capable of on an emptier fuel tank later in the race, Valentino understandably made no attempt to see what MMs pace was vs the leaders had he accepted he couldn't pass him in any case, and you have claimed yourself in contradiction to this post that MM was capable of riding faster than the leaders; neither Lorenzo nor VR was in the lead at the time of their clash at Motegi 2010 btw.

What on earth makes you think that someone I have never met disliking me because he can't out- argue me on an Internet forum would concern me?

If you want to talk mathematics, the whole Sepang thing which likely gained VR 3 points rather than costing him championship points anyway is a red herring since he lost far more points due to Pedrosa and Iannone beating him than he did from anything that MM did.

paparazzo said:

If you seriously think this is 'spot on' you know nothing about racing, and your credibility just took a hit. I have never heard of a rider/driver of in any form of motorsport who is mathematically eliminated in a championship attempt to get involved in a title battle down the stretch with 1-2 races remaining if he is incapable of staying with the leaders. Until Sepang this was unheard of. Up until this comment, you had my respect only because you were weakly try to remain 'impartial' but you need to pick up your mask that dropped to the ground.

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Hmm, are you saying that MM was incapable of staying with the leaders here .................... after all of your commentary that he was capable of .5 second faster lap times than those that he was doing?

Or are you suggesting that if a rider is incapable of going at the leaders pace then they should not battle with a rider who may have started slow but who's pace has improved as fuel load drops etc?

Genuine question btw.


As for the rest, it happens from time to time and had particular relevance in in the 125/250 classes of years past where the 'italian/spanish mafia' (take your pick as to the nationality) of riders were quite well known to have caused other championship contenders (aside from their countryman) no ends of grief (Hans Spaan was one well recorded on the receiving side).

What is alleged to have happened is not new to the sport.

paparazzo said:

You need glasses. Marquez was run wide and was the one who caused the contact. Why not put aside your massive personal hate for Valentino aside for 30 seconds, play it frame by frame to see who causes the contact. Your own countryman (Doohan) says Marquez opened the throttle and turned into Rossi. I think I'd rather put more stock in what Mick Doohan says rather than you with an obvious bias.

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As it happens I have perfect vision and don't need glasses (nor goggles, google or any other visual aids and my father who is 86 doesn't need them even now). Read the rest of the Doohan interview as I said in reply to your other post, he says that he thinks MM could have avoided collision, not that VR was guiltless

I don't hate anyone I don't know btw, and not really anyone I do know. I was going to say this to Yamaka, a long term poster and Rossi fan of the non-religious zealot variety I have always greatly respected and whose participation in the forum I have always enjoyed, and it is wasted on the likes of you, but recent events have changed my attitude to Rossi.

I will continue to acknowledge his greatness as a rider as evidenced by his stellar record from which I will continue to not detract or attempt to subtract. But yes I have lost considerable respect for his character after his petulance late season in trashing the sport, trashing the legitimate title winner's championship, and smearing MM's character, probably permanently, a process well and truly initiated before the events of the Sepang race, all in the vain (in both senses of the word) pursuit of a 10th title he in no way required to validate his career anyway, and which he lost rather simply because he was not fast enough late season, including against riders other than MM. I found his attempt in the face of this to win the championship by off track manipulation reprehensible, and given his very open employment of the element of his fan base which would seem to include you against MM I now regard him as complicit in the campaigns of vilification against all his previous rivals as well.

I sure he remains a charming, convivial, highly intelligent and witty man away from racing, but that does not excuse him imo.

michaelm said:

Watch the Motegi 2010 race as you have been told repeatedly, and read the rest of the Mick Doohan interview you cite in the preceding post.

Since you again demonstrate your complete unfamiliarity with the principles of logical debate and with logic itself, my argument in the first paragraph of the post you cite is known as reductio ad absurdum, but actually is the logical endpoint of your argument, which you haven't refuted and can't refute.

Again your main argument in your post is argumentum ad hominem, as well as counting assumption as fact since you don't know what MM would have been capable of on an emptier fuel tank later in the race, Valentino understandably made no attempt to see what MMs pace was vs the leaders had he accepted he couldn't pass him in any case, and you have claimed yourself in contradiction to this post that MM was capable of riding faster than the leaders; neither Lorenzo nor VR was in the lead at the time of their clash at Motegi 2010 btw.

What on earth makes you think that someone I have never met disliking me because he can't out- argue me on an Internet forum would concern me?

If you want to talk mathematics, the whole Sepang thing which likely gained VR 3 points rather than costing him championship points anyway is a red herring since he lost far more points due to Pedrosa and Iannone beating him than he did from anything that MM did.

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You do not need to bring out your heavy English artillery, Latin skills and debate skills just for me. I do get it and I am impressed, you are genius in English for me it is not my first language, so you win. No need to type 1000 word post to prove your IQ sir.

Gaz said:

Hmm, are you saying that MM was incapable of staying with the leaders here .................... after all of your commentary that he was capable of .5 second faster lap times than those that he was doing?

Or are you suggesting that if a rider is incapable of going at the leaders pace then they should not battle with a rider who may have started slow but who's pace has improved as fuel load drops etc?

Genuine question btw.

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Of course if his pace improves he should pass if it is possible. You know what I mean, you are trying to play with words. Either stay in front or stay behind. Yes Marc had 4-5 tenths in the bag, there is no other way a battle like that is possible for 15 passes over 2 laps, one or both riders must be sandbag. You know this, I am sure.

does any of you remember the press after the race in germany - Sachsenring; where someone asked marquez this race was kinda differenet and you usually like to battle (or something to that extend).do you guys remember he replied "yeah i do like to battle but today we needed a victory and 25 points, i will have plenty of time to battle later."

i seriously dont wanna start an arguement about this again,but just take a look at PI differently, the most obvious is doohan corner, and corner entry, it seems like marquez has very good way to handle that one, but just look at how he enters the corner on the last lap, or even the laps he is falling behind, and the laps he is in front with a considerable gap, they are very different, almost every time he is in front he choose a different line to enter the corner and run well wide, this is just the first corner so ....

im not saying there is anything wrong with what he did and I COMPLETELY DISAGREE WITH ROSSI ABOUT IT BEING INTENTIONAL TO HELP LORENZO, but tbh, now that things are over, we can look at it from a different angle, you all know its not out of character for marquez to toy around, kid around or even .... around during the race, he was just doing it for his own amusement since he had nothing to lose and tbh he was good enough to do so AND NO ONE CAN BLAME HIM FOR THAT, but the thing is it cost someone(Rossi) probably the most important thing in his life right now (8th championship).


about the speed;

in PI i think it was rossi who was constantly setting the best lap time and he visibly had the pace to catch lorenzo,

in Malaysia; didnt he set a better time than lorenzo in Q2? and if it was a normal race, im pretty confident he could catch him in the last few laps(specially cuz sepang is not lorenzo's track(i wouldnt say this if it was brno or silverstone)

so please give a guy a break, he does have a point when he says marc was playing around. (and that shouldve been his finish and getting lorenzo involved was eeww...)

paparazzo said:

Of course if his pace improves he should pass if it is possible. You know what I mean, you are trying to play with words. Either stay in front or stay behind. Yes Marc had 4-5 tenths in the bag, there is no other way a battle like that is possible for 15 passes over 2 laps, one or both riders must be sandbag. You know this, I am sure.

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Was it not 7 laps?

As for sandbagging I will say not necessarily as tactics can lead riders to do some interesting things in races that some may accuse as sandbagging whilst others may claim race craft.

IMO, as I stated previously, Rossi's racecraft at Seca in 2008 was brilliant and no single superlative can really do justice to what Laguna gave us for the laps up until CS dropped it in the last corner - that was one of the best Rider v Rider duels of a number of years.

This was a race where there were no accusations of sandbagging as the recognised 'slower' rider was the one controlling the race.

Sepang, well I remain unconvinced of a lot of things .............. but that also does not mean that I do not see possibilities, just that I like to see or read more than someone with a vested interest making a claim.

Could MM have gone quicker - well you believe so but without access to the full telemetry data is is open to interpretation .............. big shame that HRC have not followed through with the release comments and one that likely casts their side in a gray light.

Is MM a quicker rider - well on his day hell yes, he is vastly faster than is Rossi, but as we have seen time again, speed on track is often usurped by racecraft, and in that VR has spades.

One fact is that .... hit the fan, a rider hit the deck and that the remaining rider was not able to improve his lap times for any manner of reason ......

IMO only here, but MM was NOT going to win Sepang no matter how fast he did or did not ride .......... Pedrosa was in the zone that weekend and when he is in the zone, he is unbeatable no matter who the chasing rider or riders may be

paparazzo said:

You do not need to bring out your heavy English artillery, Latin skills and debate skills just for me. I do get it and I am impressed, you are genius in English for me it is not my first language, so you win. No need to type 1000 word post to prove your IQ sir.



Of course if his pace improves he should pass if it is possible. You know what I mean, you are trying to play with words. Either stay in front or stay behind. Yes Marc had 4-5 tenths in the bag, there is no other way a battle like that is possible for 15 passes over 2 laps, one or both riders must be sandbag. You know this, I am sure.

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FFS as you have repeatedly been told that is exactly what happened at LS 08 except for many more laps, and Stoner did have greater whole lap pace as was shown by him making up ground very quickly after losing time following failed passes as well as being about half a second faster in what may have been different conditions in the earlier warm-up session; VR did this by being faster than Stoner in the corners allowing him to block Stoner, both because the Yamaha was inherently better at cornering and because he and JB had spent many hours setting up the bike to maximise this advantage on what is a tight track with limited passing opportunities. He made sure he immediately re-passed after any pass by Stoner because if Stoner had gotten ahead on the part of the track which suited him he was away and gone. Hence VR's desperation at the Corkscrew.

If MM did exactly what you claim he did at Sepang he may well have used LS 08 as his model given he has been known to imitate VR/follow precedents set by him previously. You also continue to fail to explain why the Sepang incident, which in all likelihood actually gained Valentino 3 points, is so overwhelmingly important rather than all the points he lost by Pedrosa beating him in 4, and Iannone in one, of the last 5 races.

If you are going to throw down on an English language forum you probably shouldn't be surprised if someone comes back at you in that language, and it is your unfamiliarity with logic with which I have taken issue rather than making any criticism of your skills in the English language, which are considerably better than adequate and far exceed mine in the French language.

moto vudu said:

Premeditated illegal attack? Lol, you're really reaching on that one. You think before the race Rossi was sitting with his team planning on running Marc wide? Exactly how much was premeditated? IMO, Rossi never attacked Marc at all... he slowed and ran him close to the edge of the track. After that Marc made a decision to turn into Rossi and made contact. Marc simply got the worse of that contact. Rossi was punished for his role in the incident so as far as I'm concerned it's a dead issue.

Rossi is in good shape going into 2016. For the first half of last season he really struggled with his qualifying, but his race pace was excellent. Towards of the of the season he finally started to qualify better. If Rossi can qualify well next year, I like his chances to challenge for the title again.

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Who said he planned it before the race, if he made up his mind to do it the corner before he actually did it, that is pre meditated.

povol said:

Who said he planned it before the race, if he made up his mind to do it the corner before he actually did it, that is pre meditated.

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It was definitely a deliberate move as Rossi himself admitted.

povol said:

Who said he planned it before the race, if he made up his mind to do it the corner before he actually did it, that is pre meditated.

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Rossi has mind control powers? Because the action he decided to take was simply to slow MM down and take him wide. He had no mind control over Marc to force him to turn into his bike. Again, Rossi never "attacked" Marc. Punishment for running Marc wide has been served. There is will be no further punishment for the incident so it doesn't matter if you agree with RD's decision. What's done is done.

moto vudu said:

Rossi has mind control powers? Because the action he decided to take was simply to slow MM down and take him wide. He had no mind control over Marc to force him to turn into his bike. Again, Rossi never "attacked" Marc. Punishment for running Marc wide has been served. There is will be no further punishment for the incident so it doesn't matter if you agree with RD's decision. What's done is done.

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So MM was not entitled to turn in to make the corner, and should have ridden off the track to avoid any possibility of collision? We don't even know if MM knew where VR was, he certainly wasn't where MM could have had any reasonable expectation of him being, while VR very deliberately put his bike where it was.

feros said:

in Malaysia; didnt he set a better time than lorenzo in Q2? and if it was a normal race, im pretty confident he could catch him in the last few laps(specially cuz sepang is not lorenzo's track(i wouldnt say this if it was brno or silverstone)

so please give a guy a break, he does have a point when he says marc was playing around. (and that shouldve been his finish and getting lorenzo involved was eeww...)

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The only session where Rossi was faster than Lorenzo at Sepang was in Q2, on the last lap of that session by .011 of a second, which didn't stop Lorenzo from passing him from one position behind on the grid early in the race. Not a lot to hang your hat on.

michaelm said:

So MM was not entitled to turn in to make the corner, and should have ridden off the track to avoid any possibility of collision? We don't even know if MM knew where VR was, he certainly wasn't where MM could have had any reasonable expectation of him being, while VR very deliberately put his bike where it was.

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MM had options. He could've stayed on the brakes, cut under Rossi, then accelerate away. He could've used the 3-5 ft of open track Rossi left at the edge to go around Rossi as well. MM instead chose to take his chances with contact.

How could MM not know where VR was? If he couldn't see VR he would've never slowed down and run wide with him.

moto vudu said:

MM had options. He could've stayed on the brakes, cut under Rossi, then accelerate away. He could've used the 3-5 ft of open track Rossi left at the edge to go around Rossi as well. MM instead chose to take his chances with contact.

How could MM not know where VR was? If he couldn't see VR he would've never slowed down and run wide with him.

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He was at the the point in the corner when making the corner is the priority not passing anyone, and Valentino very definitely wasn't making an overtaking move which is rather the whole point.

michaelm said:

So MM was not entitled to turn in to make the corner, and should have ridden off the track to avoid any possibility of collision? We don't even know if MM knew where VR was, he certainly wasn't where MM could have had any reasonable expectation of him being, while VR very deliberately put his bike where it was.

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I'm not sure as to what you mean by MM not knowing where VR was at the point he decided to turn in and accelerate. See attached picture.

If you meant that MM would not have any expectation that Rossi would be coming underneath him in that corner, whilst MM was unsighted as he was ahead, Marques was quite wide of the racing line entering the corner. This can be seen by the number of tyre marks inboard of even where VR was. MM ran wide having just overtaken VR in the previous corner, and given the cut and thrust of the racing to that point would surely have expected VR to come back underneath him. Once in MM's eyeline I agree, Rossi did not do what could have normally been expected by MM, but from that point MM could see VR's bike quite clearly. See video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_53E6cxlfU