Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Certainly did!, where's the bits showing that Rossi will be up there next tests?
Who said Rossi will be up there?
Who said Rossi will be up there?
I cant quite make up my mind about you Jumkie (I don't mean that in a derogatory way)
Most of the time, I find your posts interesting, well thought out & well written. But sometimes I cant decide if you are well informed, full of it, or just have way too much time on your hands.
This thread is a perfect example with your Dorna / Rossi conspiracy theory. Are there back room deals going on that we don't know about?, I guess like in all business, they do go on. Is it all as bad as you made it sound? I hope not, but if it is, I'd rather not know about it. Ignorance really can be bliss.
Don't get me wrong, it was an interesting read non the less, but I'm not quite there yet.
Keep posting and I'll keep reading.
Most of the time, I find your posts interesting, well thought out & well written. But sometimes I cant decide if you are well informed, full of it, or just have way too much time on your hands.
This thread is a perfect example with your Dorna / Rossi conspiracy theory. Are there back room deals going on that we don't know about?, I guess like in all business, they do go on. Is it all as bad as you made it sound? I hope not, but if it is, I'd rather not know about it. Ignorance really can be bliss.
Don't get me wrong, it was an interesting read non the less, but I'm not quite there yet.
Keep posting and I'll keep reading.
Initially at least, yes he is. Rossi, just like Melandri is an Italian who has moved from a team they've been with for a long time and fallen out of love with, and over to Ducati with a lot of hype about how his form will improve in the Italian dream team. Like Melandri Rossi had hoped he could unlock Stoner's speed and show the world how good he is, but is a rider who needs a smooth bike and a planted front end. Like Melandri he got on the Ducati and couldn't do it.
That is where the similarity ends though because Rossi is head strong, he wouldn't fall into the pit that Melandri got into at the worst of times, also, Ducati will listen to Rossi and not question his feedback because A) Rossi has a proven record of success and the stature not to be questioned on such issues, and
Definitely
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
I think it is not a conspiracy theory to say that dorna are suited by rossi doing well, and I certainly don't think they would deliberately impede him or favour others over him. The problem with any conspiracy theory involving dorna is that they are imo very definitely not sufficiently competent to carry out a successful conspiracy. The thing that lends credence to there being a conspiracy regarding rossi and tyres in recent times is that the current control tyre appears to disadvantage rossi, which would be consistent with dorna trying to help him
I don't have a problem with rossi ending up with access to the same tyres as stoner and everyone else; I do have a problem with rossi fans complaining about stoner having had advantages, and I have a problem if stoner/ducati were deliberately with malice aforethought denied the tyres for which ducati had developed their bike (lex's theory which I don't think can be entirely dismissed), although as with all human endeavours particularly those invoving dorna this was more likely an unintended consequence. Where I would part company with jumkie is if he thinks rossi's success is unrelated to his talent; I am sure he does not think this.
Fwiw regarding the michelin/bridgestone tyre war including saturday night specials in 2006 and recent years preceding then I am pretty much in agreement with jumkie.To my knowledge michelin, the very long term premier tyre provider, provided tyres free to some teams, notably hrc and the yamaha factory team, and charged other teams, obviously all of whom were non-factory teams but not necessarily all the non-factory teams . I think it unlikely that they would have charged the teams to whom they otherwise provided tyres for free for sns tyres; whether the teams they already charged paid extra for sns tyres I do not know. It was also rumoured to which I think kropotkin alluded that in addition to teams to whom they regularly provided sns tyres extra allocations were made to riders and/or teams who performed well in practice for a given race. Bridgestone on the other hand entered motogp to take on michelin, whether for commercial/advertising reasons, because they genuinely believed racing helped tyre development, because they had some mad bike racing enthusiasts or whatever and provided tyres for free to ducati, suzuki and their satellite teams.
Whether the tyre situation was unfair is a philosophical question rather than one with a definite answer. It could perhaps be considered at least inequitable that the most monied teams did not have to pay for tyres. It is fairly definite that valentino rossi had a tyre advantage over some michelin riders, including casey stoner in 2006.
Jumkie, WWF looks real but isn't? The only way WWF looks real is if you poke a stick in both eyes and then squint with what ever eye sight you have left!!!
Michael, A conspiracy theory requires an attempt to keep the act secret. It is my opinion that there was no attempt to keep the act of assisting Rossi to get BS's a secret. I think Dorna is happy to be upfront with Rossi's fans that they will do what ever is necessary to ensure he wins. After all they want to keep on side with the 80% of people who watch.
I have said it before but the politics of MotoGP is enthralling if you are into that sort of thing. In the corporate world it is far less likely to get blow by blow media insights into the secret deals happening behind closed doors. Where as in MotoGP it gets played out in the media on a weekly basis. The best way to follow the politics is to not follow a specific rider as it clouds your perception. We see this from Rossi fans who deny politics happens even when it happens in black and white in front of them. I don't blame them as when I watch my rugby team play I only see and swear at the bad calls the ref makes against my team!
Michael, A conspiracy theory requires an attempt to keep the act secret. It is my opinion that there was no attempt to keep the act of assisting Rossi to get BS's a secret. I think Dorna is happy to be upfront with Rossi's fans that they will do what ever is necessary to ensure he wins. After all they want to keep on side with the 80% of people who watch.
I have said it before but the politics of MotoGP is enthralling if you are into that sort of thing. In the corporate world it is far less likely to get blow by blow media insights into the secret deals happening behind closed doors. Where as in MotoGP it gets played out in the media on a weekly basis. The best way to follow the politics is to not follow a specific rider as it clouds your perception. We see this from Rossi fans who deny politics happens even when it happens in black and white in front of them. I don't blame them as when I watch my rugby team play I only see and swear at the bad calls the ref makes against my team!
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Thank you for your honest reply. I appreciate what you are saying. Usually people just battle for the sake of it because they peg me as hating Rossi. This is were the conversation usually ends and the arguing begins. The truth is, some, not all, does unfortunately revolve around him since he's become such a prominent figure. I've often said, but they will ignore it, that Rossi has the right to ask, hell he can ask for an extra few ccs or even a head start, its up to the governing body to deny this and treat everybody even handed. But the Rossi fan will continue to argue with me as its just unacceptable to them for me to include Rossi in a conversation of favoritism even thought I place more blame on Dorna.
Now on this thread, the question is will Melandri experience the same as Rossi. Again, Rossi is sown within the fabric of the conversation, and since Melandri has recently indicted GP as having uneven handed treatment of its contestants, then its fair to explore this reality. (Even though, as you can see, a few have dropped off from the thread because they view it as another Rossi vs X thread. Well the fact is, most threats are going to have this element, since he has become such a great figure in the sport, and I'd say, even to the point that some see him as the sport or above the sport. They won't admit that, but the debate they propose will certainly express it. Just a small example, check out the Burgess quote I posted, at the time, peeps rationalized that it was fair since Rossi had won so many titles, therefore deserved a special treatment. If that is not enough, just re-read what Burgess said, he said "alarm bells would have been ringing" where? In the Dorna office. Why? Well Burgess tells us why, because Rossi pulls in "20-60 percent" of the viewers at a GP. He goes on to say, he had to "push" and he did so not through the "normal channels". Have you asked yourself what other channels exist? Are this "channels" also available to all the contestants? If not, then what is this in reference to?
So what about this, am I making up? What about this is "misinformation"? I'm just showing you a quote, and its rather self explanatory. It quiet reveling, and infact I have a worse one I shared recently with another member. Would you like to see it?
Sadly, I think its even worse than what we are privy to, since most that leaks out is on the heels of a few who, when asked careful questions, reveal more than they wanted. Also, like this year, sometimes a rider's ego is so strong that they will say things in the media that also reveals much about the dynamic. I'm not the one asking them the questions. But sometimes the series of events are so suspect that even a journalist feels compelled to call these guys on the carpet. And make no mistake, all of these journalist are fans of the sport, which means they are also fans of Rossi as is much of their readers. So journalist must be careful not to upset their readers base. Can you imagine if I was a journalist? How many readers would I get if I questioned the integrity of the sport and the pressure its greatest figure exerts on the governing body.
I don't know how old you are or if you follow politics, but here is an example. Sorry for the example, but please, lets not argue it particulars of the example. Most people around the world will tell you The US go involved in Iraq because of OIL. Yet, I never read a press release that stated this. Why? Because its obvious right? Without getting more into politics, this is my point, that people who have argued against what I've proposed counter with the fact that a press release is missing to confirm this as "fact".
Anyway, I accept the flaws of the sport. I was asked why I watch, its because I like all things motorcycle. All these men on the grid are extraordinary! None of the bikes ride themselves. But also,I am under no allusion that the contest is a pure and authentic competition. Listen to the post race interview, notice how all the riders will cite a small problem (including the winners) that hampered thier race progress. That's how technical the sport is, that even a small nuance can have a dramatic effect on the result. So why, oh why, when we are privy to some advantage ill gotten do we forget about it, sweep it under the rug? Then declare, all is even handed and the results represent purely the rider's talent. I don't think I've asked this before, but many argued that Rossi getting the Bstones was simply making the playing field even. It was something that Rossi needed to compete on a level with Stoner. Then what about the other riders who were left to battle on Michelins? Was this not decidedly unfair to them? How about the reverse, had Dorna not pressured Bstone into supplying Rossi and he had stayed on the Michelins, would this have been an unfair situation? The biggest problem was that Dorna did pressure Bstone for only one contestant. At the time, Pedrosa and Hayden also wanted Bstones. So why did only one get it? Pedrosa then changed mid season, an egregious act of favoritism, while his teammate Nicky was left on the Michelins. This left the top two factories split, Yamaha and Honda. The two most influential riders of the sport were awarded the Bstones after the manufacture had publicly said they would not do so. What could possibly make them change their mind? It sure wasn't Jesus.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
I think it is not a conspiracy theory to say that dorna are suited by rossi doing well, and I certainly don't think they would deliberately impede him or favour others over him. The problem with any conspiracy theory involving dorna is that they are imo very definitely not sufficiently competent to carry out a successful conspiracy. The thing that lends credence to there being a conspiracy regarding rossi and tyres in recent times is that the current control tyre appears to disadvantage rossi, which would be consistent with dorna trying to help him.
I do have a problem with Rossi ending up with the Bstones because of the way it went down. The series of events was clearly an indication that Dorna were going to change everything and nothing was off the table to ensure that Rossi got what he wanted. This lead to the scrapping of a 59 year history of a tyre war. Of course Rossi is among the most talented riders ever. That has not been the question, ever with me. Not sure why you would even mention this, its the advantage he's enjoyed by virtue of his influence and Dorna's willingness to do his bidding (and not entirely without Rossi's pressure) that I have a problem with. I place most of the blame on the governing body, but Rossi is not blameless.
This is rather generally accpeted truth. Which I find it hilarious that Talpa, our friend, would question this, and then suddenly think this was recent news.
Had Bstone held their ground we might have a Michelin control tire in the sport. That is outrageous right. Well, it almost came to that, as Bstone were threatened in such a manner. But lets for a moment toy with the idea had Bstone held its ground and Rossi would have been forced to ride on Michelin or nothing (pun intended). He either would have retired or raced on Michelin, right? So if he had stayed on Michelin, would the perceived advantage of the Bstones would have been so that many would have seen the title as tainted? Yes or no? I'd think yes, there would have been hell to pay, right. Well, infact, some riders were forced to stay on Michelin. This is the year where Rossi scored (up until this season) the most points ever. Now think about this.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Yes, so you can imagine the effect it would have it one or two of its contestants had a and advantage or disadvantage written into the contest before it even starts. That what it meant for Hayden when he was forced to race with a bike not designed or developed for him, and that's what it meant when Dorna coerced that Rossi should be on Bstones while detrimentally allowing others to ride in what was perceived to be inferior equipment. And for years, when under the approval of the governing body, certain riders were given superior tires for race day.
Thank you for your honest reply. I appreciate what you are saying. Usually people just battle for the sake of it because they peg me as hating Rossi. This is were the conversation usually ends and the arguing begins. The truth is, some, not all, does unfortunately revolve around him since he's become such a prominent figure. I've often said, but they will ignore it, that Rossi has the right to ask, hell he can ask for an extra few ccs or even a head start, its up to the governing body to deny this and treat everybody even handed. But the Rossi fan will continue to argue with me as its just unacceptable to them for me to include Rossi in a conversation of favoritism even thought I place more blame on Dorna.
-----------------------------------------Edited to save space----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This left the top two factories split, Yamaha and Honda. The two most influential riders of the sport were awarded the Bstones after the manufacture had publicly said they would not do so. What could possibly make them change their mind? It sure wasn't Jesus.
Just I said. Interesting,well thought out & well written.
I may not subscibe to all that you say, but I dont think I'd have it me to argue points to any great length.
You certainly have a talent for putting your viewpoint forward.
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
i can recall a lot of people saying that but even though i'm not a big fan of hayden i can't stand that hes usually regarded as a second rate driver. if nicky gives it everything i'm pretty sure that there is not too much left to be squeezed out ,even by the goat
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Thanks. I'm tickled you held on to the end of that essay.
Roots, perhaps. I don't doubt Rossi's talent, its fantastic. I just watched Catalunya 2009 again today; this was perhaps one of the best examples of Rossi's talent! But it’s also an example of two talented riders on the best package in MotoGP too. So, you may disagree with what I deduce from the series, but notwithstanding, here is my take on your point; I wouldn't say it’s a difference in talent necessarily, as it will be team orders. Yes, I know peeps think Rossi is 10x the rider that Nicky is, but I wholeheartedly disagree. While I don’t think Nicky is better than Rossi, Nicky has decidedly been on the wrong side of factory support his entire GP career. Its really amazing he even scored a championship. What I don't have is the results to back up my claim, but I do have an understanding of the sport and its nature to equip certain riders with a fighting chance. Sure, something difficult to prove, unless you are paying close attention to some of the indictments that sometimes surface about the parity of the playing field. For a good example of this, look up an recorded interview on superbikeplanet from Kenny Roberts Jr. about the scripted nature of GP.
So, about team orders, something that both Ducati and Rossi hold near to them, and consider it almost a right. Ask Alex Barros, when at Mugello he did the unthinkable; he beat a factory rider, Stoner, to the podium. He was reprimanded by Ducati. Now consider that much of the drama this year was about Rossi's discontent with Yamaha for having the audacity of allowing Lorenzo an equal status. I can't help but think that as part of the negotiation that Rossi had with Ducati was a stipulation that he would be the sole #1 rider and given the chance, Nicky was to explicitly follow suit. Sure, I don't have the contract in front of me. But one only need to look at other similar examples. Now we can ignore this and continue to look at the results throughout GP history and conclude, well the championship position is the only indication of rider talent. But it’ss my personal opinion (and many will disagree) that this is NOT the ONLY direct indication of talent, as I believe many factors must be combined with that assessment. GP is not a tennis match, where you have one guy battling the other, and the only thing they volley is a ball showcasing individual talent.
For ..... sake Jum, i think maybe you have far too much time on ya hands pal -
Hands off socks, hands on cocks or somin before ya get RSI!!
Hands off socks, hands on cocks or somin before ya get RSI!!
I try to be fair about bike racing on this forum, but this does not extend to rugby, where I do subscribe to conspiracy theories involving northern hemisphere and south african referees
Thanks. I'm tickled you held on to the end of that essay.I use to write even longer ones than that ya know. Much to many's chagrin.
Roots, perhaps. I don't doubt Rossi's talent, its fantastic. I just watched Catalunya 2009 again today; this was perhaps one of the best examples of Rossi's talent! But its also an example of two talented riders on the best package in MotoGP too. So, you may disagree with what I deduce from the series, but notwithstanding, here is my take on your point; I wouldn't say its a difference in talent necessarily, as it will be team orders. Yes, I know peeps think Rossi is 10x the rider that Nicky is, but I wholeheartedly disagree. While I dont think Nicky is better than Rossi, Nicky has decidedly been on the wrong side of factory support his entire GP career. Its really amazing he even scored a championship. What I don't have is the results to back up my claim, but I do have an understanding of the sport and its nature to equip certain riders with a fighting chance. Sure, something difficult to prove, unless you are paying close attention to some of the indictments that sometimes surface about the parity of the playing field. For a good example of this, look up an recorded interview on superbikeplanet from Kenny Roberts Jr. about the scripted nature of GP.
So, about team orders, something that both Ducati and Rossi hold near to them, and consider it almost a right. Ask Alex Barros, when at Mugello he did the unthinkable; he beat a factory rider, Stoner, to the podium. He was reprimanded by Ducati. Now consider that much of the drama this year was about Rossi's discontent with Yamaha for having the audacity of allowing Lorenzo an equal status. I can't help but think that as part of the negotiation that Rossi had with Ducati was a stipulation that he would be the sole #1 rider and given the chance, Nicky was to explicitly follow suit. Sure, I don't have the contract in front of me. But one only need to look at other similar examples. Now we can ignore this and continue to look at the results throughout GP history and conclude, well the championship position is the only indication of rider talent. But itss my personal opinion (and many will disagree) that this is NOT the ONLY direct indication of talent, as I believe many factors must be combined with that assessment. GP is not a tennis match, where you have one guy battling the other, and the only thing they volley is a ball showcasing individual talent.
I see what you are trying to say - I don't agree with it all but I'm not so naive as to believe that politics and money don't drive the riders' access to the right equipment. While I believe that Nicky probably knows that he is the number 2 rider and Valentino has a contract that says he is number 1, I don't believe that Nicky will be told to finish behind Valentino, nor do I want that.
Have you got a link to Barros' reprimand? I haven't read about that. Interestingly, it seems that maybe Stoner has been given a helping hand as well if you subscribe to your way of thinking. That is, if Barros was the one to ignore the rule, maybe the other riders are observing the rule.
Sometimes, it would be nice to just know the facts. Save time hypothesising strange conspiracy theories which ultimately, although based on events and snippets of comments, remain just that... theories.
