MotoGP: Shell Advance Malaysian Motorcycle Grand Prix predictions/buildup

Sloth u said u understand the differences but honestly im not sure u are making the connection that distinguish what exactly Lorenzo was talking about, which I outlined above. Was the contact that is alleged between Jlo/MM (only seen race once) of the SAME "type" that occured in Aragon PD/MM (of which Jlo protested)? YES OR NO?




In one hand u say u get the difference in 'type of contact'i n the other u insist contact is contact. And conclude there is hypocrisy. Then I conclude u still dint understand the differences.



Side note: did u see the crash in Moto2? That bike on the tarmac was struck and it reminded me of how easily consequence can become uber dangerous. VR (I think) mentioned cringing to miss Pedros bike at Aragon. Reminded me of Jarno Saarin. This obstacle of Pedros RCV strung in the middle of the course was not caused by two rider vying for position. It was caused by a rider error, one that can be argued was done by unmindful unnecessary risk which led to collision, regardless and irrelevant of the unusual circumstances.

Mick D

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Looked but can't find official attendance for this yr. I'm guessing near 100,000 for Sunday... my perception only but it seemed way busyier than last yrs 77,000. 30,000 first yr I went in 06 for perspective!

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You were there in '06?

A couple of mates and I flew over that year, first visit to Sepang.

I think this year got to 85k, last year seemed packed, but maybe that was just all of us crammed under whatever cover we could get...

I seen on twitter Emmet retweeted 80, 000

Jumkie

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Hawk Sloth, u boys dont understand the difference in contact. At first I was thinking u guys are just going on about to advance your position, holding fast to bolster it. Now I realize you two (like some others) simply dont comprehend the difference. This is why this debate is impossible to carry. Notwithstanding, I'll articulate it for others reading here. Contact is sometimes made in vying for position, this can be clean even if some contact is made inadvertently, both riders are aware and both are in mutual combat, neither is put in an overly precarious position (today's race, and a plethora of similar ones in history), this can also be the result of aggressive 'racing', this is NOT to be confused with a mistake leading to collision ( MM Aragon, which had it not been for a long string of prior similar unmindful incidents, the rider himself would have been spared 'warning') or a collision (of the type we call torpedoes) made by gross errors (Baustista on Lorenzo), or those collisions with intent of forcing another rider to lose advantage precariously by the impact itself (Loris Arg 98, VR Jerez 05, MM Jerez 13).


To honestly fail to understand these distinctions reflects one's fundamental understanding of the sport.

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What happened to contact is contact? Jlo is not differentiating between mistakes and aggressive riding.

<span style="color:rgb(58,59,62);font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px;“I could have been damaged in Jerez, Dani could have been damaged in Aragon very badly, and in the past some Moto2 riders. But for the show it is a great option.” 

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MM said Jlo caught him out by surprise on the hit and a replay shows MM being taken off his line, now all the sudden this is okay because it's just aggressive racing? What makes it aggressive racing when Jlo does it, but negligent riding when MM does it. 


Does MM ride close on the rear wheel of other riders, yes he does, and he's also the best on the brakes in the paddock and his bike is better than all the rest in braking according to Jlo himself.


Jlo also hit Pedro's rear wheel in the race with his front tire, Jlo took that risk on a bike he knows is inferior on the brakes, why was he so close?Not dangerous or negligent, he didn't mention if it was a mistake, looked like a mistake, there was no way in hell he could pass unless traveling directly through Pedro. 


My only point is that Jlo has now done the mistake and the aggressive riding contact in one race, it happens. Jlo and MM were both good enough not to punt Pedro off his bike, but MM was unfortunate to cut Pedro's sensor wire. If MM was punting people off their bikes I would understand.

No, the contact was not the same.


 


I recognise the difference, really it isn't that hard. I don't think 'contact is contact'. What happened yesterday in Sepang is fine by me, and probably ok with most riders. What happened in Jerez with MM/JL isn't ok and plenty would agree. My opinion is that MM/DP at Aragon is more like Rossi/Stoner in the rain at Jerez, where the following rider made a mistake and took the other out. I don't think there was any intent, just a ....... Bautista made plenty of those types of mistakes, but I never thought he deserved a penalty.


 


It just comes across as double standards when Lorenzo is lecturing us one day and then doing whatever he wants the next. He even tried to suggest yesterday after the race that Marquez didn't leave him enough space on the outside of a corner. Like c'mon, they were both dishing it out evenly to each other.


 


Yes, the Moto2 crash had me properly worried. It's one of those types of accidents that will never be totally avoidable no matter how safe the tracks, bikes and riders become. Pons had a monster highside (again), and the following riders were left without many options. It serves as a reminder that you need to be especially careful in the first few laps to not go down or cause someone else to go down, because the field hasn't spaced out enough to avoid a pileup. It's the thing I'm most conscious of myself when riding on the track - I doubt I'd ever be in a position to hit a wall or have a huge highside or anything like that, but even a low speed spill can easily lead to be struck by a following rider.

Sloth_27

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No, the contact was not the same.


 


I recognise the difference, really it isn't that hard. I don't think 'contact is contact'. What happened yesterday in Sepang is fine by me, and probably ok with most riders. What happened in Jerez with MM/JL isn't ok and plenty would agree. My opinion is that MM/DP at Aragon is more like Rossi/Stoner in the rain at Jerez, where the following rider made a mistake and took the other out. I don't think there was any intent, just a ....... Bautista made plenty of those types of mistakes, but I never thought he deserved a penalty.


 


It just comes across as double standards when Lorenzo is lecturing us one day and then doing whatever he wants the next. He even tried to suggest yesterday after the race that Marquez didn't leave him enough space on the outside of a corner. Like c'mon, they were both dishing it out evenly to each other.


 


Yes, the Moto2 crash had me properly worried. It's one of those types of accidents that will never be totally avoidable no matter how safe the tracks, bikes and riders become. Pons had a monster highside (again), and the following riders were left without many options. It serves as a reminder that you need to be especially careful in the first few laps to not go down or cause someone else to go down, because the field hasn't spaced out enough to avoid a pileup. It's the thing I'm most conscious of myself when riding on the track - I doubt I'd ever be in a position to hit a wall or have a huge highside or anything like that, but even a low speed spill can easily lead to be struck by a following rider.

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I had to laugh after I saw that and I couldn't believe he said MM was racing clean up until that point, after he hit MM. 

Dr No

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You were there in '06?

A couple of mates and I flew over that year, first visit to Sepang.

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maybe we,be met and don't even know it! Spent some time with random antipodes in 06!

hawkdriver

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What happened to contact is contact? Jlo is not differentiating between mistakes and aggressive riding.

MM said Jlo caught him out by surprise on the hit and a replay shows MM being taken off his line, now all the sudden this is okay because it's just aggressive racing? What makes it aggressive racing when Jlo does it, but negligent riding when MM does it. 

Does MM ride close on the rear wheel of other riders, yes he does, and he's also the best on the brakes in the paddock and his bike is better than all the rest in braking according to Jlo himself.

Jlo also hit Pedro's rear wheel in the race with his front tire, Jlo took that risk on a bike he knows is inferior on the brakes, why was he so close?Not dangerous or negligent, he didn't mention if it was a mistake, looked like a mistake, there was no way in hell he could pass unless traveling directly through Pedro. 

My only point is that Jlo has now done the mistake and the aggressive riding contact in one race, it happens. Jlo and MM were both good enough not to punt Pedro off his bike, but MM was unfortunate to cut Pedro's sensor wire. If MM was punting people off their bikes I would understand.

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Long bow you are attempting to stretch.  Not even sure you kept yourself straight there.  You are trying to make the case MM overshooting his braking resulting in collision is the same as what occurred between Jlo and MM today vying for position, not sure many would agree with you (though I'm sure there are some).  Simply put, neither does Lorenzo, this is why its not hypocritical (which is the point I'm making).  If Lorenzo repeatedly overshot his braking point and collided with the lead rider, and thought nothing of it, then it would be hypocritical.  I don't think you are understanding it or just sticking to your guns for the sake of argument, I'm inclined to believe the latter. 

Sloth_27

3634771381728338

No, the contact was not the same.


 


I recognise the difference, really it isn't that hard. I don't think 'contact is contact'. What happened yesterday in Sepang is fine by me, and probably ok with most riders. What happened in Jerez with MM/JL isn't ok and plenty would agree. My opinion is that MM/DP at Aragon is more like Rossi/Stoner in the rain at Jerez, where the following rider made a mistake and took the other out. I don't think there was any intent, just a ....... Bautista made plenty of those types of mistakes, but I never thought he deserved a penalty.


 


It just comes across as double standards when Lorenzo is lecturing us one day and then doing whatever he wants the next. He even tried to suggest yesterday after the race that Marquez didn't leave him enough space on the outside of a corner. Like c'mon, they were both dishing it out evenly to each other.

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It comes across as a "double standard" if one assumes that the contact was the same in either circumstance.  Its not a double standard if one understand that vying for position while inadvertent contact occurs is fundamentally not the same thing.  Spitting on somebody and walking in the rained may get you wet, but its totally different.


 


 
Sloth_27

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Yes, the Moto2 crash had me properly worried. ...It serves as a reminder that you need to be <u>especially careful in the first few laps</u> to not go down or cause someone else to go down, because the field hasn't spaced out enough to avoid a pileup.

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Lap 6, Aragon. 

Mick D

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maybe we,be met and don't even know it! Spent some time with random antipodes in 06!

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JK was at Laguna in 06, I was there too.  Didn't know him back then, and frankly I don't remember seeing a guy walking around with a dildo hat. But there might have been a chance we almost crossed paths though.  Weird aint it. 

Jumkie

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Long bow you are attempting to stretch.  Not even sure you kept yourself straight there.  You are trying to make the case MM overshooting his braking resulting in collision is the same as what occurred between Jlo and MM today vying for position, not sure many would agree with you (though I'm sure there are some).  Simply put, neither does Lorenzo, this is why its not hypocritical (which is the point I'm making).  If Lorenzo repeatedly overshot his braking point and collided with the lead rider, and thought nothing of it, then it would be hypocritical.  I don't think you are understanding it or just sticking to your guns for the sake of argument, I'm inclined to believe the latter. 

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No Jumkie I said MM making mistakes on the brakes is different than the contact that happens with aggressive riding. The two situations were not completely the same, but they were both filled with risk. During the race Jlo made the same mistake against Pedrosa, the lead rider, and hit his back wheel. 


I personally think MM rides so close in hopes that he can take advantage of the mistake of the lead rider overshooting on the brakes, he did of course commit the same mistake as Lorenzo and went in to hot at the Jerez incident, I don't think Jlo left that open for him, he changed his line because he went in to fast. I think they both over cooked it. MM has since cleaned up his act and realized he needs to stay to the outside to avoid what happened at Jerez. He's learning and you can see it on the track in his riding, the new competition doesn't leave many opening even when they make mistakes, but I wouldn't hold it against him if he did it again in a heated moment, it was the last corner. 


 


I don't think Lorenzo is saying there is a difference like you're saying when he brings up every single indecent. If MM was dangerous he wouldn't be so cautious in the first two laps and lose his poll position advantage as often as he does. This is also not the first race that Jlo has made contact with other riders, if you go back and watch those lightning starts, they are not without their victims, something MM is not yet willing to do.


 


Finally Jlo tried to act like he made no contact with MM, so if he does think there is a difference why not admit the mistake and say it's not the same. He can't and we both know why.

Mick D

3634801381728786

maybe we,be met and don't even know it! Spent some time with random antipodes in 06!

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We were swanning it up courtesy of Aprilia and their local importer. If you saw a pyramid of Tiger cans in the window of one of the rooms (too bloody cold in there but they wouldn't let you out with open alcohol..) overlooking the back straight...that was us.

Jumkie

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It comes across as a "double standard" if one assumes that the contact was the same in either circumstance.  Its not a double standard if one understand that vying for position while inadvertent contact occurs is fundamentally not the same thing.  Spitting on somebody and walking in the rained may get you wet, but its totally different.

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It's different, but a lot similar than you say. Unless Lorenzo thinks his form of contact carries significantly less risk.


 


A better example would be to say I am against violence against women, so I don't punch my wife. But sometimes I trip her over.

Sloth_27

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It's different, but a lot similar than you say. Unless Lorenzo thinks his form of contact carries significantly less risk.


 


A better example would be to say I am against violence against women, so I don't punch my wife. But sometimes I trip her over.

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Then again with the Pedrosa/MM incident the analogy I might choose to draw if I wanted to be vexatious is that arguing Pedrosa wasn't really taken out because it was only a cable that was cut is analogous to claiming that killing someone by stabbing him in the heart doesn't count as murder because you didn't shoot him,  then taking issue with Darwin or God according to your predilections for the poor design of the human body which allowed a knife to pass between the ribs into the heart.


 


I don't have any problem with contact in a contested pass when the pass is feasible and the passer is in control of his bike, and I don't think anyone else does either. What people are complaining about in MM is not his passing other than the Jerez pass, which is a separate argument to the Pedrosa incident, but his apparent disinterest in the presence of others ahead of him on the track, as illustrated by several practice incidents.

Lorenzo's "nudge" was far worse than the clip with Marq's elbow, part of which was provided by Pedro shifting the back end offline under braking. I don't get why you folk are saying Marq missed a braking point ........ crap ....... he was going to go outside and Pedro's wiggle caused contact so Marq evaded.

michaelm

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Then again with the Pedrosa/MM incident the analogy I might choose to draw if I wanted to be vexatious is that arguing Pedrosa wasn't really taken out because it was only a cable that was cut is analogous to claiming that killing someeone by stabbing him in the heart doesn't count as murder because you didn't shoot him,  them blaming Darwin or God according to your predilections for the poor design of the human body which allowed a knife to be thrust between the ribs into the heart.

 

I don't have any problem with contact in a contested pass when the pass is feasible and the passer is in control of his bike, and I don't think anyone else does either. What people are complaining about in MM is not his passing other than the Jerez pass, which is a separate argument to the Pedrosa incident, but his apparent disinterest in the presence of others ahead of him on the track, as illustrated by several qualifying incidents.

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Well reasoned post, mm.

But by taking such a view (lawyer speak..), you might be thrown into the anti-Krop/Pro-Jum-Irrumatio League.

BarryMachine

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Lorenzo's "nudge" was far worse than the clip with Marq's elbow, part of which was provided by Pedro shifting the back end offline under braking. I don't get why you folk are saying Marq missed a braking point ........ crap ....... he was going to go outside and Pedro's wiggle caused contact so Marq evaded.

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Perhaps because that is pretty much what Honda and MM said themselves, what Pedrosa has complained about, and what race direction penalised him for.


 


If he was attempting a pass then it wasn't on imo, and analogous to Rossi at Jerez 2011,  a case of ambition exceeding talent, great though that talent might be.

Dr No

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We were swanning it up courtesy of Aprilia and their local importer. If you saw a pyramid of Tiger cans in the window of one of the rooms (too bloody cold in there but they wouldn't let you out with open alcohol..) overlooking the back straight...that was us.

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we spent a good amount of time on the back straight, though with only 30,000 there we moved around a lot! Beers were flowing very freely outside your crystal palace!

Michaelm, I'll grab Jum's long bow call out... the knife to the heart analogy is really stretching it! More appropriate would be: a man runs down a street trying to make an important appointment and bumps into another pedestrian, knocking him down. The person accidentally knock down subsequently dies from an undiagnosed congenital heart defect or some sort of rare aneurysm.

chopperman

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 It's no secret Repsol want Spanish champions.  

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<blockquote>

I don't understand the obsession with Repsol - looking at their published figures, their total involvement is about Euro1.3M for the HRC team - they don't sponsor the series, they don't own Dorna, they don't employ anyone in any management capacity in the FIM.


 


Why would what Repsol (a minor player in European petroleum, let alone at a world level) wants matter in the least?[/quote]