MotoGP: 2013 Round 07 - Iveco TT Assen (SPOILERS)

mylexicon

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You don't remember the old days of Dani, when he used to ride like Napoleon, injuring himself badly at least once per season, and complaining bitterly about the antics of his competitors? You don't remember Puig showing Dani pit messages that had nothing to do with the size of his lead? You remember when it caused him to crash heavily at Sachsenring?


 


Since the clash with Simoncelli, or since Simoncelli's death, Dani is a different rider. He rides within himself and steers clear of injury. Last season was by far the best of his career, and if not for the freak HRC meltdown at San Marino, he might have won the title. He's a different rider, and I'm inclined to think Puig was the one pushing him to self-destruct. He's a much better rider now than in the first 6 seasons of his career.

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Are you kidding me?  Next to Nicky, Pedro is probably the guy I pay attention to next as love and hate can be very powerful microscopes.  Of course I have paid attention to Dani.  I seek him out at every race I've ever attended.  Ha!  Seriously dude, are you high?  Yes yes, I agree that Dani has grown up...so to speak.  No ...., most riders save the snot nosed MurderMac are more acutely aware of their mortality.  What the .... has this .... got to do with his piss poor rationalization of his performance at Assen?  This sense didn't stop him from making life hard for Stoner to pass him in the latter part of last year did it?  No, in fact he risked to stay ahead while Stoner risked to pass and suffered the consequences of such a high stakes knife's edge game of 'go ....... fast'.  You boys are gonna try and make a case he came 4th at Assen because he was thinking about managing the the gap to Lorenzo?  Hahaha, give me a break.  Managing means he would have come second to Rossi.  Which is exactly what Lorenzo did the two times he was in title management mode, he didn't let Rossi fluster him in 2010 nor Pedro in 2012.  Now contrast this with the reality that Pedro is on the best bike (or would people now like to engage in some debate that the M1 is suddenly the best now because VR found some improvement?) and the assumptions that he is in the best ever top form of his life, add to this his increased maturity and intelligence, so that 4th makes sense to you given Lorenzo's broken collarbone?  Uhm, I think I might still be drunk from the weekend.

Not convinced about Ben at the moment Jum,  when you sign you have a medical and even though Ducati cant see what's wrong with their bike but Barry can i'm sure their doctors would have seen how bad that shoulder was. like Elias I don't think Ben wants it anymore.

thedeal

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Not convinced about Ben at the moment Jum,  when you sign you have a medical and even though Ducati cant see what's wrong with their bike but Barry can i'm sure their doctors would have seen how bad that shoulder was. like Elias I don't think Ben wants it anymore.

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As Krops said, once an injury takes longer to heal, it takes its takes toll mentally (though even still, these guys are wired different to us, ie Jlo coming back from surgery to perform at 90% in a game that is mind-bogglingly difficult).  Saying Ben doesn't want it any more is a bit harsh and I would respectfully disagree.  These guys have worked at this for many years which means they have seen a plethora of injuries of various degrees.  Its clear that Ben's season last year was complete ...... by happenstance and some self-inflicted, though at this level we generally blame it on a team for mechanical mishaps happen with such frequency.  If Rossi could get away with blaming Ducati for supposedly not acting on his demands, then why would we give a pass to Yamaha for sending a guy out on close to a quarter's worth of a season of races on mechanical failure?  While Cal screams he wants the brakes he want (not that the brakes he had were off the shelf ......) and the fuel tank he "deserves" I got to wonder what bloody murder he would have been spewing to have gone out to experience broken swing-arms, cracked frames, engine failures, defective visors, and mysterious bum tires.  Would you have supported such complaint?  Of course, I would too because it would be of no fault by the rider, and further, I'd make the case it was a breach of their contract as the rider is expected to put their balls on the line and the team/manufacture to provide a reliable confidence inducing machine.  Instead of saying look, we take part of the responsibility for you having a ...... season and possibly getting hurt because you were pushing so hard, we will give you one more year to make good, as half the .... was our fault; no, instead of that they said, later, we gonna sign Rossi.  Now, let me take it a step further, I suppose your observation of Spies' performance on a Ducati is indication to you that he has lost his desire (lets shelve he is still injured), then in your estimation, where might Dovi be on a Tech3 M1 or Cal be on a GP13?  


 


My take is that Spies is simply injured and even fully healthy he is going to struggle on a Ducati.  Both Dovi and Nicky raced in close tandem at Assen, struggling to make the top ten.  That is all we need to know about that I believe my friend.  This injury has I'm sure screwed with his confidence, but this is a guy who has won at the highest level, talent he has, desire he got, a competitive bike?  Not so much.  

Kropotkin

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What changed him was getting the problem with his collarbone fixed, which was partially blocking the artery to his arm. That caused him to question what he was doing. When he came back, and was actually healthy, he was much calmer. He has also learned to relax, my HRC friends tell me.

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Makes sense. He's definitely a new rider post-2011.

Keshav

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Lets face it, (for better or worse) not the same around here without Barry.

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What the .... is he talking about? I've been on holiday with my kids - got back on the weekend. Dunno where Zoot is, haven't seen him for a month or so. I think he's in China still. Tell Junkie I've still got him on ignore... Pity it doesn't ignore all his quotes - he makes up about 50% of all posts and about 85% of all words.


 


Better things to do... have a nice week.

Jumkie

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You boys are gonna try and make a case he came 4th at Assen because he was thinking about managing the the gap to Lorenzo? 

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I would argue that Dani is not good at Assen, but unlike the past, when Dani would have had a meltdown, Dani just goes home and boats around the Mediterranean with his illegal license More importantly, Dani seems less likely to injure himself.

Kropotkin

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No. Broken collarbones are part of the deal. The fact that he raced 36 hours after surgery tells you how (relatively) simple the injury is. Shoulders and wrists end careers, collarbones are an excruciatingly painful inconvenience. (Which is not to denigrate Lorenzo's amazing achievement in any way).


Unless of course you hit complications like Pedrosa did, who suffered with a screw blocking off blood flow to his arm. That injury made Pedrosa wonder why he bothered, but it wasn't the pain or the problem, but the months of trying to figure out what the problem was. Injuries which take a long time to fix are the ones which sow doubt in the minds of riders.


I can honestly see Lorenzo and Pedrosa signing up for two more years at the end of their current contracts, and then considering retiring. Especially as they will be at the receiving end of serial humiliation by Marc Marquez by then.

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My view on clavicular fractures is somewhat coloured by weekends in Casualty in my vanished youth decades ago and amateur footballers being sent home in slings. Despite their benign prognosis they didn't play another football game the next day though.


 


The point I mainly sought to make earlier in the thread was that  Dani not racing with his clavicle fracture in 2011 and Jorge racing with his whilst it does make Jorge incredibly tough does not make Dani a wimp, given that he smashed his collar bone into multiple fragments and no-one, brave or not, plated or not, is racing with that. Colin Edwards raced 9 days after one clavicle fracture in 2011 and finished 3rd, but not for a month after a second comminuted/fragmented fracture in 2012, and then only lasted a lap.


 


It also would seem to depend on the likelihood of sequelae and what is at stake; Jorge despite being along with Valentino likely the toughest out there with no real prospect of the championship sat out the last 2 races of 2011 in an attempt, ultimately futile, to save the tip of one finger; I suspect Jorge would have sacrificed it to actually win a championship.

Gentz, with all do respect...WTF. Why are we assuming Jlo's fracture was of such a benign category? Because some forum jockey deemed it some level of 'routine'? Or, because he raced Sunday therefore the conclusion must be 'it wasnt so bad?' Have we all gone mad? ...., had this been Marc, Krops would have written three parts to the post race round up telling us how MM just might save the planet. Jesus. Lets go back and watch the highside, it was a violent event. So now its like we have all decided, oh yeah he just rolled home for a quick surgery, a few screws and lickity split, some glue, tape, staples and two aspirin, right? ...., maybe he should have just walked it off, eh?

Pedros recovery was (as i understand it) the problem. But we have no idea yet if Jlo's recovery will present some complications or issues since the stitches are still fresh. But because Jlo had the boulder-balls to go out on a broken wing doesnt necessarily prove that his injury was less significant as Pedros. And worse, being described as relatively simple. Btw if the impact was bad enuf to break .... u can best believe there was soft tissue damage. Which mean loss of strength. Dude manned up.

Lorenzo broke both ankles twice in one season. He rode during after and between both injuries. He wasnt even in the title chase then. Just maybe...just maybe his injury is really really bad but he said .... that ...., im gonna ride through it because im really really in the title hunt.

agreed jums.


i feel like a full blown pussy at the moment. i opened up my index finger knuckle on monday morning, got 3 stiches for mytrouble, and havent ridden my bike since. it still sitting at work, cause "it hurts tooooo muchh!"....


anyone that can chuck a leg of their 240hp bike and race with a decent injury like that is a flat out tough ...., and is to be admired.

Jumkie

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Gentz, with all do respect...WTF. Why are we assuming Jlo's fracture was of such a benign category? Because some forum jockey deemed it some level of 'routine'? Or, because he raced Sunday therefore the conclusion must be 'it wasnt so bad?' Have we all gone mad? ...., had this been Marc, Krops would have written three parts to the post race round up telling us how MM just might save the planet. Jesus. Lets go back and watch the highside, it was a violent event. So now its like we have all decided, oh yeah he just rolled home for a quick surgery, a few screws and lickity split, some glue, tape, staples and two aspirin, right? ...., maybe he should have just walked it off, eh? Pedros recovery was (as i understand it) the problem. But we have no idea yet if Jlo's recovery will present some complications or issues since the stitches are still fresh. But because Jlo had the boulder-balls to go out on a broken wing doesnt necessarily prove that his injury was less significant as Pedros. And worse, being described as relatively simple. Btw if the impact was bad enuf to break .... u can best believe there was soft tissue damage. Which mean loss of strength. Dude manned up. Lorenzo broke both ankles twice in one season. He rode during after and between both injuries. He wasnt even in the title chase then. Just maybe...just maybe his injury is really really bad but he said .... that ...., im gonna ride through it because im really really in the title hunt.

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As you would know from your life experience both professionally and as a rider collar bone injuries from riding have the potential to occur after rather more violence than occurs on a football field and some of them are not simple and may involve multiple fragments and damage to adjacent soft tissue structures, some of which are fairly important, such as nerves and fairly major blood vessels; it is rather a long time since I have put in a subclavian line.


 


I think Kropotkin's point was that a straightforward collar bone fracture which healed in an uncomplicated manner would be unlikely to deter Jorge in comparison to some of the other things he has endured,  some of which you have listed, which I think is a reasonable point. My point before he rode was that whilst beyond the capability of just about anyone it might be vaguely possible to ride if the thing wasn't too fragmented.


 


As to how severe the injury actually was there has been nothing definitive as you say as far as I am aware; someone on another forum said, unsourced, that there were 2 breaks. It was stated in the press release that it took about an hour to fix it which would seem a long time for an uncomplicated single fracture, unless they were being extra careful about soft tissue trauma from the surgery and minimising his operative wound, not that I know much about modern orthopaedic surgery for the clavicle or have seen any details of the nature of the procedure Jorge actually had.  


 


Whilst not as structurally important as some bones you do rather need your clavicle in the short and longterm to attach your arm to the rest of your body, and in my semi-amateur opinion it is inconceivable that anyone, even someone as tough as Jorge, could ride 36 hours after fracturing a clavicle into 5 fragments or more as Colin Edwards did with his second fracture in 2012, and  Dani did in 2011.


 


Colin Edwards was acclaimed, I am sure correctly,  as being legendarily tough when he raced 9 days after his first presumably less complicated (than his 2012 fracture) fracture in 2011, so Jorge has topped that by 8 days, and I certainly can't recall anyone racing so soon after any sort of clavicle fracture.

This is what he was riding with. I'd assume it would be a bit uncomfortable on the brakes...


 

In "miracles" there are always several contributing factors happening together, which make them possible.


Lorenzo's very smooth style coupled with a fast-flowing track could be two factors that allowed him to race (and race so successfully) immediately after surgery. The third element is his exceptional grit, because anyway one has to make a tough decision and make it quickly. And probably the fracture wasn't of the nastier kind, otherwise the doctors wouldn't have permitted him to ride. This seems confirmed by the fact that medical checks after the race found no ill side effects, and JLo is now recovering normally.

I for one am sure that Lorenzo was in massive pain when he rode that race on Sunday, you only had to look at him at the end of it to see how he'd suffered. I'm not sure whether I should really admire him for that or think he was dumb to risk it. I will say he has to have some huge cojones to get on that bike so soon again though and even try to race, most people wouldn't think of doing that but he was determined and you can never rule out the power of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it don't matter.


 


All the riders seem to ride around as many injuries as possible, only this season we've had several examples of that, Cal, Bradley, Marc and Jorge to name the most obvious ones that come to mind first.


 


Should we admire them for it? Maybe because it takes guts, but at some point one of these injuries is going to end up causing them to have an even bigger issue I reckon and then what? Mind you it's always gone on as long as I can remember, go back to Barry Sheene and how many pins, plates and other assorted bits of metal did he have in his legs before he retired?

Jumkie

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Gentz, with all do respect...WTF. Why are we assuming Jlo's fracture was of such a benign category? Because some forum jockey deemed it some level of 'routine'? Or, because he raced Sunday therefore the conclusion must be 'it wasnt so bad?' Have we all gone mad? ...., had this been Marc, Krops would have written three parts to the post race round up telling us how MM just might save the planet. Jesus. Lets go back and watch the highside, it was a violent event. So now its like we have all decided, oh yeah he just rolled home for a quick surgery, a few screws and lickity split, some glue, tape, staples and two aspirin, right? ...., maybe he should have just walked it off, eh? Pedros recovery was (as i understand it) the problem. But we have no idea yet if Jlo's recovery will present some complications or issues since the stitches are still fresh. But because Jlo had the boulder-balls to go out on a broken wing doesnt necessarily prove that his injury was less significant as Pedros. And worse, being described as relatively simple. Btw if the impact was bad enuf to break .... u can best believe there was soft tissue damage. Which mean loss of strength. Dude manned up. Lorenzo broke both ankles twice in one season. He rode during after and between both injuries. He wasnt even in the title chase then. Just maybe...just maybe his injury is really really bad but he said .... that ...., im gonna ride through it because im really really in the title hunt.

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Not all collarbone injuries are equal. There's no "proof" of it being less damaging - but It's not such a stretch to speculate that Lorenzo was fortunate in that regards. He certainly didn't have the to deal with the loss of blood flow issue that Pedrosa was confronted with. No do doubt about it - his ride after the plate was heroic. OTH - you can't ignore the sheer number of injuries Pedrosa has been through and his continued efforts to go for it, even when it was only for 2nd in the championship. Like him or not - he's tough little ......

Sloth_27

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This is what he was riding with. I'd assume it would be a bit uncomfortable on the brakes...


 

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Ah, routine then.  

michaelm

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As you would know from your life experience both professionally and as a rider collar bone injuries from riding have the potential to ...

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Mike, you know about this stuff 1000X more than me (actually, that might be an understatement).   And Krops post was right on regarding what types of injuries end careers, but I just got the sense we were brushing it off rather too glib while making it seem Pedro had survived nuclear winter.  Chalk it up to my bias bro.  


 


You made a great post...as is your custom.