I though Bautista had a contract with Gresini through 2014..... Seriously just rip the papers up now and give that bike to one of the Asparagus bro's.
Joined May 2008
3K Posts | 79+
Southern Aridzona - Hell's doorstep.
Gotta think that Honda gave Murder Marc one and only one 'team order':
'Under threat of DIRE repercussions, whateverthefuck you do, don't take out Pedro!"
The real mystery is how they managed to beat the concept of 'caution' into his brain. Perhaps a few hours in Uncle Albert's agony booth provided sufficient deterrent?
Bautista's statement is beyond ludicrous. Can he really fail to grasp even the most basic aspects of racing, such as 'wait for the damn tires to warm up before going mental?' The inside of his head must be a scary place!
'Under threat of DIRE repercussions, whateverthefuck you do, don't take out Pedro!"
The real mystery is how they managed to beat the concept of 'caution' into his brain. Perhaps a few hours in Uncle Albert's agony booth provided sufficient deterrent?
Bautista's statement is beyond ludicrous. Can he really fail to grasp even the most basic aspects of racing, such as 'wait for the damn tires to warm up before going mental?' The inside of his head must be a scary place!
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Clarky, no pic of Curve could ever be cloudy. He is nothing but sunshine. Now had u said a smokey pic of Curve, then I agree. Btw, I think u may have a point. Perhaps its a breakthrough in maturity. Maybe some adult (obviously nobody from his Moto2 crew) pulled him aside and said, yo this is the bigtime now, u can go slamming into people risking a crash with no points if u intend to win a title. This may not be a shock to anybody, but I rather have Marc win a title over Pedro. So I hope he is maturing quickly or listening to prudent advice.
Jumkie
I just want to point out that I never suggested there team orders on Marc against Dani to the effect of 'you're not allowed to pass him'. I do however believe the team could have made a point of letting him know that if he tries a move and takes Dani out they won't exactly be welcoming him back with a smile and hug.
When it comes to arguing points about tyres and engines and so on here I stand no chance, I am aware of that, I simply don't have the knowledge. However I have watched enough years of motorsport to notice racecraft I hope. I just know how it looked to me. Oh and for the record Jumkie, I love F1 but I have always been unhappy with the team orders thing, I don't think they should be allowed either, all that does is cheat the fans out of an honest result and I am really glad they don't do that in motogp.
Arrab I haven't yet seen the move between Lornenzo and Rossi in 2009, I will have to go and look that up. I did read somewhere though that when asked if he'd pull the same move on Lorenzo again this year Rossi said 'only if he waits for me to catch him up first'. That made me smile, at least he's honest on that.
I just want to point out that I never suggested there team orders on Marc against Dani to the effect of 'you're not allowed to pass him'. I do however believe the team could have made a point of letting him know that if he tries a move and takes Dani out they won't exactly be welcoming him back with a smile and hug.
When it comes to arguing points about tyres and engines and so on here I stand no chance, I am aware of that, I simply don't have the knowledge. However I have watched enough years of motorsport to notice racecraft I hope. I just know how it looked to me. Oh and for the record Jumkie, I love F1 but I have always been unhappy with the team orders thing, I don't think they should be allowed either, all that does is cheat the fans out of an honest result and I am really glad they don't do that in motogp.
Arrab I haven't yet seen the move between Lornenzo and Rossi in 2009, I will have to go and look that up. I did read somewhere though that when asked if he'd pull the same move on Lorenzo again this year Rossi said 'only if he waits for me to catch him up first'. That made me smile, at least he's honest on that.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Lyria
I stand corrected.
As you watch this, I'll tell you why I admire this race so much. In the race thread belonging to this event, all I could muster as my initial post was to write VALENTINO ROSSI, in bold no less. Keep in mind, I am not a VR fan, and have spent more time detracting him than praising. Why do I think this was one of the best races, because as you will see, both riders raced hard and CLEAN. Lately the GP fans have gone goo gaga over Marc's tactic used at Jerez as proper racing. They have used the ........ justification that a "gap" existed, therefore it was ok for the rookie to barge past Lorenzo. Its complete ........, and anybody who subscribes to this (and I'd say most do) are simply wrong at best, I don't care who the .... they are, they are WRONG. Barging past a rider even given a small gap is not proper racing in MotoGP. And if a "gap" is the justification, then just about every turn, unless the lead rider is on the curbing hugging the inside white line, then technically a "gap" exists. The logical end to this reasoning then is that any attempt at overtaking is "legal" and if contact is made, then its just a "racing incident". You can go back to read my debate with Kropo, which he completely lost when he started to argue the Harada vs Capirossi incident. Anyway, (with do respect) .... him and anybody who thinks torpedoing another rider to get past is proper. If you crash into somebody or the other rider has to take evasive measures to save themselves, then a mistake has been made. Now watch how its suppose to be done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_bWCVzXIyI
I stand corrected.
As you watch this, I'll tell you why I admire this race so much. In the race thread belonging to this event, all I could muster as my initial post was to write VALENTINO ROSSI, in bold no less. Keep in mind, I am not a VR fan, and have spent more time detracting him than praising. Why do I think this was one of the best races, because as you will see, both riders raced hard and CLEAN. Lately the GP fans have gone goo gaga over Marc's tactic used at Jerez as proper racing. They have used the ........ justification that a "gap" existed, therefore it was ok for the rookie to barge past Lorenzo. Its complete ........, and anybody who subscribes to this (and I'd say most do) are simply wrong at best, I don't care who the .... they are, they are WRONG. Barging past a rider even given a small gap is not proper racing in MotoGP. And if a "gap" is the justification, then just about every turn, unless the lead rider is on the curbing hugging the inside white line, then technically a "gap" exists. The logical end to this reasoning then is that any attempt at overtaking is "legal" and if contact is made, then its just a "racing incident". You can go back to read my debate with Kropo, which he completely lost when he started to argue the Harada vs Capirossi incident. Anyway, (with do respect) .... him and anybody who thinks torpedoing another rider to get past is proper. If you crash into somebody or the other rider has to take evasive measures to save themselves, then a mistake has been made. Now watch how its suppose to be done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_bWCVzXIyI
Dr No
I'm not suggesting it is different to any other team, just that they seem to have got through to Marc that he doesn't want to be doing that somehow. If they hadn't I think he'd have made a rash barging move, yet he didn't do it which suggests he's actually listened to his team, that has to be a good thing.
Jumkie, I have now watched the imfamous move and you're right, it's breathtaking in how clean and controlled it is. I am with you, I don't want riders or drivers in F1 barging by, right now I have an issue with the way Perez is trying to do just that, it's let me by or crash into me, that is all wrong, if you can't make a clean move and get by on talent and out and out better riding/driving then forget it.
Racing is supposed to be a skill, there is an art to be a great racer, making great moves is why we all ooh and ahh and love the sport so much, well it's that for me. We only wish we could do the same thing but very few can. Any fool can barge by someone and risk taking them both out, only someone skilled can make moves like the one you showed me and make it look easy. It's that kind of thing that keeps me watching and admiring those who can manage it.
I'm not suggesting it is different to any other team, just that they seem to have got through to Marc that he doesn't want to be doing that somehow. If they hadn't I think he'd have made a rash barging move, yet he didn't do it which suggests he's actually listened to his team, that has to be a good thing.
Jumkie, I have now watched the imfamous move and you're right, it's breathtaking in how clean and controlled it is. I am with you, I don't want riders or drivers in F1 barging by, right now I have an issue with the way Perez is trying to do just that, it's let me by or crash into me, that is all wrong, if you can't make a clean move and get by on talent and out and out better riding/driving then forget it.
Racing is supposed to be a skill, there is an art to be a great racer, making great moves is why we all ooh and ahh and love the sport so much, well it's that for me. We only wish we could do the same thing but very few can. Any fool can barge by someone and risk taking them both out, only someone skilled can make moves like the one you showed me and make it look easy. It's that kind of thing that keeps me watching and admiring those who can manage it.
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Lyria
Which is precisely why I made reference to it. Returning to my original point. You expressed your surprise that Marc did not attempt to 'barge past' on the same corner, last lap so I suggested you watched this. Without being 'clean and controlled' any such manoeuvre would have probably sent them both careering into the car park - <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;Márquez knew that.
<span style="font-size:14px;<span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;He didn't look like he was holding back to me and he certainly isn't riding shotgun or under team orders as others have speculated.
<span style="font-size:14px;<span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;Marc is a rookie, he is learning and maturing and Catalunya is a very tricky circuit. He may have had the closing speed on Perdosa - (again as others have pointed out the apparent extent of this differential) his entry may have even potentially been slightly higher, but I saw Pedrosa riding a perfect defensive line and doing what he's always excelled at since 2006 - snapping the bike upright on the exit and maximising HRC grunt driving out of the corner. I'll say again - Dani is very, very hard to pass, because he seldom makes mistakes and he rarely strays from the perfect optimum line. Do that at Catalunya - run deep and it can cost you dear. <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;Márquez may well have made up the gap practically instantly after his near off but we know that's what he excels at - we know he's quick. Getting past Dani was another matter altogether. His failure to do so had nothing to do with holding back for fear of taking him out, nothing to do with team orders or riding shotgun...his failure to do so was because of two things: - 1/ Simply because he couldn't and 2/ Dani didn't allow it.
Which is precisely why I made reference to it. Returning to my original point. You expressed your surprise that Marc did not attempt to 'barge past' on the same corner, last lap so I suggested you watched this. Without being 'clean and controlled' any such manoeuvre would have probably sent them both careering into the car park - <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;Márquez knew that.
<span style="font-size:14px;<span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;He didn't look like he was holding back to me and he certainly isn't riding shotgun or under team orders as others have speculated.
<span style="font-size:14px;<span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;Marc is a rookie, he is learning and maturing and Catalunya is a very tricky circuit. He may have had the closing speed on Perdosa - (again as others have pointed out the apparent extent of this differential) his entry may have even potentially been slightly higher, but I saw Pedrosa riding a perfect defensive line and doing what he's always excelled at since 2006 - snapping the bike upright on the exit and maximising HRC grunt driving out of the corner. I'll say again - Dani is very, very hard to pass, because he seldom makes mistakes and he rarely strays from the perfect optimum line. Do that at Catalunya - run deep and it can cost you dear. <span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;Márquez may well have made up the gap practically instantly after his near off but we know that's what he excels at - we know he's quick. Getting past Dani was another matter altogether. His failure to do so had nothing to do with holding back for fear of taking him out, nothing to do with team orders or riding shotgun...his failure to do so was because of two things: - 1/ Simply because he couldn't and 2/ Dani didn't allow it.
Don't mean to disrespect but some people can't seem to empathize with the racers' mindset at the final corner of the final lap.
Of course torpedo'ing is stupid. But to think that when given a chance, these passionate riders wouldn't take it, is ignorant and wishful thinking at best.
Of course torpedo'ing is stupid. But to think that when given a chance, these passionate riders wouldn't take it, is ignorant and wishful thinking at best.
Arrabbiata1
I did try to look that move up when you suggested it but didn't get around to it until this morning when Jumkie had thoughtfully put it up for all to see, bless him. He's such a sweetheart at times.
See I agree with most of what you say, I truly do, the only part we disagree on really is whether he could get by or felt he might have a chance but chose not to for whatever reason. Having seen him in earlier races this season he isn't against making space and pushing his way through if/when it suits him to. He could have tried that here but he didn't. Whether that was for the sake of his own championship, Dani's championship, (which I seriously doubt) or his fear of a frosty reception when he rejoined his team if it all went wrong I doubt we'll ever know. You say he couldn't do it, I say he chose not to take the risk.
We're not so far apart, it's all down to opinion and how you see it. Like I say, we'll probably never know which of us is right, you will believe what you think it was, I will believe what I think it was and we'll have to agree not to agree on this one I suppose. Unless either of us can ask Marc and get an honest, definitive answer out of him on it that is.
UserM4, however passionate the rider, some of them have their heads screwed on and won't risk an all out banzai move that could land them on their backside in the gravel and lose them a solid podium and good tally of points towards a championship they're trying to build.
I did try to look that move up when you suggested it but didn't get around to it until this morning when Jumkie had thoughtfully put it up for all to see, bless him. He's such a sweetheart at times.
See I agree with most of what you say, I truly do, the only part we disagree on really is whether he could get by or felt he might have a chance but chose not to for whatever reason. Having seen him in earlier races this season he isn't against making space and pushing his way through if/when it suits him to. He could have tried that here but he didn't. Whether that was for the sake of his own championship, Dani's championship, (which I seriously doubt) or his fear of a frosty reception when he rejoined his team if it all went wrong I doubt we'll ever know. You say he couldn't do it, I say he chose not to take the risk.
We're not so far apart, it's all down to opinion and how you see it. Like I say, we'll probably never know which of us is right, you will believe what you think it was, I will believe what I think it was and we'll have to agree not to agree on this one I suppose. Unless either of us can ask Marc and get an honest, definitive answer out of him on it that is.
UserM4, however passionate the rider, some of them have their heads screwed on and won't risk an all out banzai move that could land them on their backside in the gravel and lose them a solid podium and good tally of points towards a championship they're trying to build.
And who wants to watch these properly screwed on riders? Afaik, the risk takers are the ones with the most followers ie Rossi/Sic
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
One cannot speak about supposedly 'dirty' tactics vs supposedly 'clean' ones without considering the actual risk involved.
In a 60 kmph last-lap corner (like that famous bend at Jerez) a rider can afford to be much more physical (or 'dirty' as our more morally elevated commentators love to say) and dive for a gap with less qualms than in a 160kmph corner (like that last bend at Catalunya) which require an ultimate level of skill. It's always been like that and real champions have always been capable to be physical or razor-sharp clean as circumstances allow or demand.
In a 60 kmph last-lap corner (like that famous bend at Jerez) a rider can afford to be much more physical (or 'dirty' as our more morally elevated commentators love to say) and dive for a gap with less qualms than in a 160kmph corner (like that last bend at Catalunya) which require an ultimate level of skill. It's always been like that and real champions have always been capable to be physical or razor-sharp clean as circumstances allow or demand.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
All fair and good comments. Just one small caveat, lets not pretend Marc Marquez doesnt have a particular reckless race tactic history that has been well observed, in Moto2 AND in MotoGP thus far.
If the kid had a revelation at Mugello after 4 crashes, on at 300kph and the other during a race in the runner-up position, then I applaud him. I genuinely hope hes figured out he and others are mortal and championships are won by being prudent.
If the kid had a revelation at Mugello after 4 crashes, on at 300kph and the other during a race in the runner-up position, then I applaud him. I genuinely hope hes figured out he and others are mortal and championships are won by being prudent.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Joined Jul 2007
5K Posts | 1K+
unda cheese
Jumkie
Marquezs move at Jerez was identical to Bautistas at Cataluna.
Nobodys defending Bautista. Determining the fine line between a race incident and recklessness seems to come down to the popularity of the rider
Marquezs move at Jerez was identical to Bautistas at Cataluna.
Nobodys defending Bautista. Determining the fine line between a race incident and recklessness seems to come down to the popularity of the rider
Joined Sep 2007
2K Posts | 60+
here
JohnnyKnockdown
Ok, I'll bite.
Not the same at all, let alone identical.
Bautistas "move" was half way through the first lap when the tires weren't fully warm. Rossi was on the racing line and had not left the door open and Bautista couldn't (didn't) make the corner with or without a berm as he lost the front. Despite Bautista's fantasy claim that he was being "held up", the 5 riders in front of him were still line-astern - unsurprisingly as it was still the first lap.
Marquez's move was in the last corner of the last lap where Lorenzo left the door wide open (sorry Jumkie, he did) and he'd have made the corner without using Lorenzo as a berm, he'd have just gone wide, not lost the front.
Ok, I'll bite.
Not the same at all, let alone identical.
Bautistas "move" was half way through the first lap when the tires weren't fully warm. Rossi was on the racing line and had not left the door open and Bautista couldn't (didn't) make the corner with or without a berm as he lost the front. Despite Bautista's fantasy claim that he was being "held up", the 5 riders in front of him were still line-astern - unsurprisingly as it was still the first lap.
Marquez's move was in the last corner of the last lap where Lorenzo left the door wide open (sorry Jumkie, he did) and he'd have made the corner without using Lorenzo as a berm, he'd have just gone wide, not lost the front.
If you think in terms black and white, then yes, no one wants to watch people "riding to their deaths".
Calculated risks by the best riders in the world at desperate times. You would understand if you used to compete at any level of any motorsports. Hell, even cycling can get dangerous.
Calculated risks by the best riders in the world at desperate times. You would understand if you used to compete at any level of any motorsports. Hell, even cycling can get dangerous.
Joined Jul 2007
5K Posts | 1K+
unda cheese
yamaka46
Same ........ move. He tried an inside line that directly intersected with the bike in front of him. Different track, similar lines, same result
Joined Feb 2008
2K Posts | 0+
home
UserM4
Riders want to compete and be succesful, and will take whatever route available to them to do this. The problem is not theirs, it is the problem of those who make and enforce the rules of competition.
Well, thank you for sharing your insights from the perspective of a professional athlete.
Riders want to compete and be succesful, and will take whatever route available to them to do this. The problem is not theirs, it is the problem of those who make and enforce the rules of competition.
