MotoGp - Gran Premio d'Italia 2017 - Spoilers

JPSLotus said:

Not to detract at all from Dovi's win, but you really have to wonder about Lorenzo. This was a race at one of his best circuits on a clearly well-prepared bike, and he went backwards when he needed to stay at the front.

Maybe I am being unfair as it is only his first season, but it is early June. You have to have come to grips with this bike by now. I know it's not easy to change riding styles, but a lot of adjustments have been made to try and help Lorenzo out from the seating position to the thumb brake. You have to start delivering now.

I keep waffling back and forth on whether he comes back for 2018 or not because it's obvious that contract has morphed into an albatross of a deal that is increasingly looking as if it will never pay off for Ducati. I don't think getting rid of Iannone was a bad move for Ducati, but Lorenzo doesn't look like the right choice now.

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I was pumped when he got into the front in the opening laps, finally i thought. Then my missus joked that he would get passed by a few of the other riders, it would upset his groove and he would fall right back like I've always known him to (not always ... but on more than one occasion).

I don't think his finishing position today was anything to do with the bike he was riding or him not being used to it or the track ... he was leading the race for a brief period so he knows how to ride it fast, he was on the same bike with the same tyres as the race winner. Pirro with his wildcard entry finished the race 1/2 a second behind him .... Ducati at some point if not already will have to be questioning their substantial investment in him to bring them results that to date he hasn't.

In his defence I don't think the Ducati's are the easiest bikes to get your head around, Dovi has been with Ducati for some time in comparison.

What happened with the Crutchlow / Pedrosa crash, did any fists get thrown??

AJV80 said:

What happened with the Crutchlow / Pedrosa crash, did any fists get thrown??

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I think a bird did...

AJV80 said:

I was pumped when he got into the front in the opening laps, finally i thought. Then my missus joked that he would get passed by a few of the other riders, it would upset his groove and he would fall right back like I've always known him to (not always ... but on more than one occasion).

I don't think his finishing position today was anything to do with the bike he was riding or him not being used to it or the track ... he was leading the race for a brief period so he knows how to ride it fast, he was on the same bike with the same tyres as the race winner. Pirro with his wildcard entry finished the race 1/2 a second behind him .... Ducati at some point if not already will have to be questioning their substantial investment in him to bring them results that to date he hasn't.

In his defence I don't think the Ducati's are the easiest bikes to get your head around, Dovi has been with Ducati for some time in comparison.

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While the Ducati is not the easiest bike to get adapted to, Lorenzo has won 3 premier class world titles. That makes it harder to give him leeway IMO, and it's not like Ducati is in the state Cagiva was in when Eddie Lawson showed up there in 1991. Even he managed to take one victory in his two years, and did run well at numerous races prior to the Hungaroring victory in 1992. If Lorenzo was a fairly newer GP rider, I could understand things being where they are currently, but let's face it when your team's test rider is only half a second behind you, and you are sitting in 8th place, there's a huge problem.

The Ducati doesn't rely on a balanced M1-style chassis that focuses more on corner stability and balance than power. Gigi clearly thought Lorenzo was the missing piece, but in reality Dovi may have saved Gigi's job today, not Lorenzo. Unless Ducati plans on changing their engine layout, Lorenzo will do nothing here and find himself on a midfield/backmarker in either 2018 or 2019. There will be no Dorna Golden Parachute back onto a Yamaha.

AJV80 said:

What happened with the Crutchlow / Pedrosa crash, did any fists get thrown??

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Pedrosa came into turn 10 far too hot on the inside of Crutchlow and lost the front end. Took him out...was reminiscent of his move on Hayden at Estoril 2006 in some regards. Cal was understandably pissed this time around as it was a stupid stupid move on Pedrosa's part. Surprised his collarbone didn't decide to fracture itself as punishment.

well that was refreshing

blistering ride from dovi..... well happy

JPSLotus said:

While the Ducati is not the easiest bike to get adapted to, Lorenzo has won 3 premier class world titles. That makes it harder to give him leeway IMO, and it's not like Ducati is in the state Cagiva was in when Eddie Lawson showed up there in 1991. Even he managed to take one victory in his two years, and did run well at numerous races prior to the Hungaroring victory in 1992. If Lorenzo was a fairly newer GP rider, I could understand things being where they are currently, but let's face it when your team's test rider is only half a second behind you, and you are sitting in 8th place, there's a huge problem.

The Ducati doesn't rely on a balanced M1-style chassis that focuses more on corner stability and balance than power. Gigi clearly thought Lorenzo was the missing piece, but in reality Dovi may have saved Gigi's job today, not Lorenzo. Unless Ducati plans on changing their engine layout, Lorenzo will do nothing here and find himself on a midfield/backmarker in either 2018 or 2019. There will be no Dorna Golden Parachute back onto a Yamaha.

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Its already been said here before but I think Lorenzo would have had much more success with Suzuki with it being a much more similar bike to his Yamaha. Doubt they would have had the budget to outbid Ducati for Lorenzo though ... although they might pick him up for a bargain if Ducati doesn't work out for him ... may even get a free set of steak knives.

JPSLotus said:

The new hard tire was here this weekend, so from here forward that 070 front is the norm.

Well it sounds like the atmosphere at Yamaha was enough to make it easier for him to look elsewhere when a large amount of money was put in front of him. I do understand not liking the atmosphere at Yamaha, but it's not like he was being offered a ride on a similar bike. Given how sensitive he is to tires and a balanced bike, the Ducati move makes zero sense no matter what the Yamaha situation was.

Today was just such a bad look for him. If he was beating his teammate I wouldn't be as concerned. But he can't even beat his teammate now. He's going to need to seriously consider his future and where he goes next. Given his inability to adapt to the tires, there is no way Yamaha touches him again since I don't see the tire situation improving for him in the next couple of seasons...and ignoring that, Zarco will be replacing Rossi if Rossi goes out at the end of next season. Suzuki or KTM is where he goes next before finding himself out of the sport altogether.

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Two words: Forced Error.


Next stop Cagiva.

Outstanding performance by all riders. especially Dovi and Petrucci.
I see very different ducati this year, very interesting, especially that black "salad" box at the back. what exactly inside that box?

Lorenzo........ Lol.
he need to sffu and just do what it needs to do to be fast on the ducati. yes his jerez performance was outstanding, but it is too early to backfired critics thrown on him.

Learn from the master, Stoner, he backfired critics thrown by VR, JB, etc AFTER he decide to retire. two years he save VR, JB critics, until finally he backfired.

AJV80 said:

I was pumped when he got into the front in the opening laps, finally i thought. Then my missus joked that he would get passed by a few of the other riders, it would upset his groove and he would fall right back like I've always known him to (not always ... but on more than one occasion).

I don't think his finishing position today was anything to do with the bike he was riding or him not being used to it or the track ... he was leading the race for a brief period so he knows how to ride it fast, he was on the same bike with the same tyres as the race winner. Pirro with his wildcard entry finished the race 1/2 a second behind him .... Ducati at some point if not already will have to be questioning their substantial investment in him to bring them results that to date he hasn't.

In his defence I don't think the Ducati's are the easiest bikes to get your head around, Dovi has been with Ducati for some time in comparison.

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When Lorenzo went to the front, I had to ask wife if I'd been slipped the brown acid. Surreal!

Keshav said:

Two words: Forced Error.


Next stop Cagiva.

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Someone at Daimler needs to tell MV Augusta to dust off the Cagiva nameplate for GP again.

I'm starting to think Rossi's greatest accomplishment since returning to Yamaha in 2013 was to run Lorenzo right out of the team. Took him only 4 seasons to achieve that.

HelloMars said:

Outstanding performance by all riders. especially Dovi and Petrucci.
I see very different ducati this year, very interesting, especially that black "salad" box at the back. what exactly inside that box?

Lorenzo........ Lol.
he need to sffu and just do what it needs to do to be fast on the ducati. yes his jerez performance was outstanding, but it is too early to backfired critics thrown on him.

Learn from the master, Stoner, he backfired critics thrown by VR, JB, etc AFTER he decide to retire. two years he save VR, JB critics, until finally he backfired.

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In fairness to Lorenzo, riding like Stoner is never going to happen. No one can ride like Stoner period. I think the reality is that Lorenzo's riding style is what it is and he can adapt it, but he will never be able to make the full-scale change required to ride the Ducati successfully. It's too tall of an order at this point in his career. Hence why I believe the only thing that can save his Ducati stint if he completes the contract is a full out overhaul of the entire bike from engine to chassis, and Ducati is never going to give up the 90 degree V4 at this point.

AJV80 said:

Its already been said here before but I think Lorenzo would have had much more success with Suzuki with it being a much more similar bike to his Yamaha. Doubt they would have had the budget to outbid Ducati for Lorenzo though ... although they might pick him up for a bargain if Ducati doesn't work out for him ... may even get a free set of steak knives.

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To be honest, while I thought Lorenzo would be suited for the Suzuki GSX-RR, I have my reservations about even that at this point. People thought Iannone was going to do well on that bike, myself included, and reality has been considerably different on that front. We assume Lorenzo would do better on the Suzuki, but until he actually rides the GSX-RR, there is no way of knowing for certain. The tire situation makes performing on whichever bike you toss out there sort of a non-starter as these tires simply do not match up to Lorenzo's riding style at all.

Stoner talked at his Malaysia 2016 test for Ducati about the current crop of riders. It was enlightening from the perspective of him not having been out on the same track as all the riders since the 2012 season came to a close until pre-season testing 2016. He said that most everyone brakes super late now as that's what the name of the game is now. It made me think about the Michelin tires and how everyone who does well on them over the larger sample size is a demon on the brakes. Lorenzo has never been about braking, and as such, he has struggled tremendously with the reintroduction of the Michelin tires to GP. For Lorenzo to come to grips (no pun intended) with the Ducati he would have to move away from being a corner speed dependent rider IMO as that would unlock the Michelin tires for him. I can't see it happening.

JPSLotus said:

While the Ducati is not the easiest bike to get adapted to, Lorenzo has won 3 premier class world titles. That makes it harder to give him leeway IMO, and it's not like Ducati is in the state Cagiva was in when Eddie Lawson showed up there in 1991. Even he managed to take one victory in his two years, and did run well at numerous races prior to the Hungaroring victory in 1992. If Lorenzo was a fairly newer GP rider, I could understand things being where they are currently, but let's face it when your team's test rider is only half a second behind you, and you are sitting in 8th place, there's a huge problem.

The Ducati doesn't rely on a balanced M1-style chassis that focuses more on corner stability and balance than power. Gigi clearly thought Lorenzo was the missing piece, but in reality Dovi may have saved Gigi's job today, not Lorenzo. Unless Ducati plans on changing their engine layout, Lorenzo will do nothing here and find himself on a midfield/backmarker in either 2018 or 2019. There will be no Dorna Golden Parachute back onto a Yamaha.

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And what jugs did the Cagiva have back then? From?
Lawson - much as I admire him - did the Cagiva gig for the $.
Good on him, too.

Dr No said:

And what jugs did the Cagiva have back then? From?
Lawson - much as I admire him - did the Cagiva gig for the $.
Good on him, too.

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Eddie's decision was also made easier in addition to the money because he was pissed off at Yamaha and he felt he wasn't getting the same equipment as Wayne Rainey when he returned in 1990 and suspected the team of doing "things". I don't think that was ever the case as Wayne gave his tacit approval to swap out one of his engines at a race into Eddie's YZR-500 just to try and combat the belief that they were not receiving equal treatment. It made no difference. I don't think Eddie was ready to accept that in 2 years Wayne had simply surpassed him as a rider and that was it for Eddie. I have no problem with Eddie feeling the money was a good enough reason to go there as by that point in his career, why not get a nice big payday?

More the point I was making is that Cagiva heading into 1991 was a not a competitive bike at all. Heading into 2017, Ducati was coming off of their best overall season since 2007. So it's not as if Lorenzo walked into a Ducati that mirrored Cagiva. Cagiva never had a rider finish in the top 10 in the world championship until Eddie Lawson did in 1991.

JPSLotus said:

Eddie's decision was also made easier in addition to the money because he was pissed off at Yamaha and he felt he wasn't getting the same equipment as Wayne Rainey when he returned in 1990 and suspected the team of doing "things". I don't think that was ever the case as Wayne gave his tacit approval to swap out one of his engines at a race into Eddie's YZR-500 just to try and combat the belief that they were not receiving equal treatment. It made no difference. I don't think Eddie was ready to accept that in 2 years Wayne had simply surpassed him as a rider and that was it for Eddie. I have no problem with Eddie feeling the money was a good enough reason to go there as by that point in his career, why not get a nice big payday?

More the point I was making is that Cagiva heading into 1991 was a not a competitive bike at all. Heading into 2017, Ducati was coming off of their best overall season since 2007. So it's not as if Lorenzo walked into a Ducati that mirrored Cagiva. Cagiva never had a rider finish in the top 10 in the world championship until Eddie Lawson did in 1991.

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It is a tough game. Someone as great as Lawson ended fairly ignominiously, Lorenzo could end on a worse note than him, Stoner went from being the ultimate Ducati hero to the Marlboro man diagnosing him as a flake in 2 years, and many people believing that cowboy in Stoner's last year at Ducati, even Rossi needed Carmelo to bail him out after his Ducati adventure.

Stoner deciding to get out on his own terms looks a better and better decision for him, although it still pains me as a fan to think about his potential even now on the current Ducati.

michaelm said:

It is a tough game. Even someone as great as Lawson ended fairly ignominiously, Lorenzo could end on a worse note than him, Stoner went from being the ultimate Ducati hero to the Marlboro man diagnosing him as a flake in 2 years, and many people believing that cowboy in Stoner's last year at Ducati, even Rossi needed Carmelo to bail him out after his Ducati adventure.

I think Stoner deciding to get out on his own terms looks a better and better decision for him, although it still pains me as a fan to think about his potential even now on the current Ducati.

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Agreed that it's a very tough game. And one thing I find interesting is pinpointing when exactly a rider's peak has passed him by. That was in my opinion the case with Eddie Lawson by 1990...and it sounds strange to say such a thing when he was coming off of the back-to-back titles of 1988 and 1989. Yet, the reality was that when he came back to Yamaha for 1990, he was simply outclassed by the teammate he had finished ahead of considerably in 1988. Though in fairness to Eddie, it's not like he was facing some run-of-the-mill teammate. But it's still jaw-dropping to me how much Rainey improved from 1988 to 1990. And unlike Lawson, Spencer, Schwantz, Roberts, and Gardner, we never saw Wayne Rainey lose it.

Not that I think Lorenzo has lost "it", but "it" has a significant correlation with the machine at hand and the available tire selection in Lorenzo's case. No different from Rossi at the end of the day, only Rossi was never going to be allowed to suffer the fate of finding himself just thankful to be allowed on the grid on some backmarker. Lorenzo will get no such luxury sadly.

Agreed regarding Stoner. After seeing how this season has unfolded to date, I actually am glad he never came back. It's obvious the championship has been manipulated with the tires, and I feel that the tire vote of 2012 was directly linked to his decision to retire from GP as his retirement announcement only came several weeks after the infamous tire vote IIRC. I do think he would like to wild card in a race, but given that no such thing could be done in a normal fashion, that's why it will never happen. Any race in which he wild cards, would have a massive championship implications depending on when it was done. Oh well, it's nice to think about what he might do if he chose to ride the GP17, but we'll never get to see it when it counts.

Jumkie said:

I'm not so sure I'm expressing conceit rather than anger and disgust, but I will take your point. I've never been very good at expressing my opinions whilst angry, that hasn't stopped me from posting diatribes. Curse of having access so readily to the soapbox.

I was trying to express my negative reaction at self-promotion at the expense of such an awful tragedy. It basically pissed me off and took to expressing it while angry. There have been several fantastic tributes, I felt this smacked of shameless brand promotion and sympathy seeking.

I do cringe at my own posts sometimes, I suppose I should adopt a more mild writing style. The hubris of pointing out I'm far up my arse, as you put it, isn't lost on me. I've gone back to edit my post and attached a disclaimer.

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Haven't we all been there?
Hats off to you for acknowledging it

JPSLotus said:

I don't know what Marquez is doing, he went Medium/Medium which is bizarre for him to do. Both Yamaha riders are on the hard front. Track temperature is 41C/107F. Even Pedrosa is on the hard front.

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The hard compound wasn't working with the 'new' stiffer carcass apparently. Although I thought he'd been running the # 6 all weekend.

I agree, bizarre. When was the last time you saw both Marquez and Crutchlow on M-M?

Im his biggest detractor, so this is hard for me to say but, amazing ride from Pedrosa today. Precise, authorative and courageous. The way he threaded the needle to achieve the finest possible outcome was breathtaking. We can only hope he continues this stellar form