Motogp: 2016 Round 3 Red Bull Grand Prix of The Americas

Jumkie · Apr 9, 2016

paparazzo said:
Not to take away anything from Tony Elias but to add some much needed context, he out-dragged VR out of the last corner and both came across the line together side by side in a photo finish in I think 5/1000's of a second maybe even less than that and KR was 3rd by 1/10th. To add more contexts, this was also the race that both Repsol Honda's collided and ended in the gravel removing 2 contendors. Yes Elias did win the race but it's certainly not like he bolted on SNS's and won by 25 seconds as this forum would lead you to believes.

Let's add more context shall we. The race 'distance' is not the enTIREety of the last corner to the finish line as Papabozzo might have us believe, so much for "context". It IS the enTIREty of all the laps over a race distance. The difference in time we normally see amongst the winner to the rest of the finishers is an aggregate of the tenths made up over that distance. GPs are about 100 kilometers. If I recall Estoril is about 2-3 miles or so. A short track, which means more laps, which means more opportunities to lose time if you're on inferior anything. Given Toni Elias was/is 'considered' a .... rider (only aliens, etc.) then this feat is extraordinary, pause for thought. The fact Toni Elias, a never before race winner, was in contention to battle for the lead, against the 'at the time' 'undisputed' GREATEST OF ALL TIME, then this makes it even more revealing. So how did Toni Elias do it? On a satellite bike no less? Answer: on superior tires he never before got and never got since. One can only ponder and imagine what his career might have looked like if Rossi got 2nd tier tires all his career, and Toni got custom tires.

Context, it's a mothafucker.

michaelm · Apr 9, 2016

Gaz said:
Totally agree.

IMO only but of all the rides I have seen that was his best and I have stated that many times as proof that you do not need the fastest bike to win races, but you need race craft and single minded determination.

Yes, some of the his moves (not the Corkscrew) were hard, maybe even harsh as claimed by Stoner but it was a lesson being given in what it takes to win and what he would do to challenge at a time when he should have struggles.

As for the tyres, I remembered that both were on Stones but (from memory) Stones were not doing the SNS so it was close to a head to head given that each was on tyres developed for their bike (in VR's case, he being the only runner on Yamaha possible helped a more suitable tyre but Ducati had years start)

SNS tyres were abolished for 2007, so if anything Rossi was theoretically on the tyre developed specifically for the Ducati, although rumours persist it wasn't the same tyre Stoner had in 2007.

michaelm · Apr 9, 2016

basspete said:
G Day, call that a knife, your ambition outweighed your talent, tie me kangaroo down sport. Imagine if Casey was racing, it would be.......

You still haven't gotten over them casting an Australian-American to play William Wallace obviously.

paparazzo · Apr 9, 2016

JPSLotus said:
No one said he won by 25 seconds or ever implied such a thing.

His win was made possible by Pedrosa's discarded Satuday Night Specials. Yes the Hondas crashed out, but Elias' pace to work up to the front was only made possible by having the right tires for one day in his life.

Toni Elias is a hero since that win denied Rossi crucial points Talpa.

Kenny Jr also should have won that race and probably would have if he didn't miscount the laps.

Hero in your eyes maybe since Valentino Rossi absolutely owns your mind and soul. :spin:

Some context was needed since a new forum member recent to the sport may be led to believe that these 'witches brew' SNS tires were some sort of a panacea and sure win and worth seconds/lap for whoever bolted them on which of course is nonsense. You and this sad sac of a forum continuously imply that these 'SNS' tires are responsible for bringing VR his titles, more ........ of course.

michaelm · Apr 9, 2016

paparazzo said:
Hero in your eyes maybe since Valentino Rossi absolutely owns your mind and soul. :spin:

Some context was needed since a new forum member recent to the sport may be led to believe that these 'witches brew' SNS tires were some sort of a panacea and sure win and worth seconds/lap for whoever bolted them on which of course is nonsense. You and this sad sac of a forum continuously imply that these 'SNS' tires are responsible for bringing VR his titles, more ........ of course.

They were fairly definitely involved in Elias winning that race, however.

(EDIT Just for fun I looked it up. There were 2 races on non-SNS tyres where Elias finished 7 and 10 seconds off the lead. Otherwise the closest he got was 17 seconds, so the argument that the SNS tyres loaned Elias 25 seconds could have some merit.
I have argued that the SNS tyres were more or less a control tyre for the contenders on Michelin tyres, with catch 22 applying, and am not sure how much advantage if any they gave Rossi over other Michelin shod contenders. We do however have the example of the Elias race where he got the SNS tyres because Dani Pedrosa couldn't ride them, statements by Colin Edwards that they usually didn't suit him, and apparently a statement by Randy Mamola which I don't recall seeing personally that they were tailored more to Rossi's preference than those of other riders).

paparazzo · Apr 9, 2016

michaelm said:
They were fairly definitely involved in Elias winning that race, however.

I am not arguing that, just adding context.

Reading some of the posts would have one believe he bolted them on and cruised to easy win, nothing can be further from the truth. I remember this race and Elias also rode his heart out sliding around like MM and he won by 2/1000's and could have easily been 3rd if KR didn't think he had a lap to go still. Had he finished 3rd no one would even remember Toni Elias. This 'SNS' BS is just more overblown nonsense just to diminish Rossi's victories and titles.

michaelm · Apr 9, 2016

paparazzo said:
I am not arguing that, just adding context.

Reading some of the posts would have one believe he bolted them on and cruised to easy win, nothing can be further from the truth. I remember this race and Elias also rode his heart out sliding around like MM and he won by 2/1000's and could have easily been 3rd if KR didn't think he had a lap to go still. Had he finished 3rd no one would even remember Toni Elias. This 'SNS' BS is just more overblown nonsense just to diminish Rossi's victories and titles.

See the edit to my previous post.

JPSLotus · Apr 9, 2016

paparazzo said:
Hero in your eyes maybe since Valentino Rossi absolutely owns your mind and soul. :spin:

Some context was needed since a new forum member recent to the sport may be led to believe that these 'witches brew' SNS tires were some sort of a panacea and sure win and worth seconds/lap for whoever bolted them on which of course is nonsense. You and this sad sac of a forum continuously imply that these 'SNS' tires are responsible for bringing VR his titles, more ........ of course.

Sorry Talpa...in your desperate haste to try and elevate your idol's status in a place that overwhelmingly sees Rossi for the fraud he is, you make the fatal mistake of attempting to diminish the important of the Saturday Night Specials for Valentino Rossi.

To try and deny the importance of the SNS tires, is to deny the importance of tires and how custom made tires can alter an entire race in any given motor sport.

Rossi was competing on an entirely different level from everyone else not by way of skill, but by way of what Mark Donohue termed in another era, "the unfair advantage". To deny, or even to rationalize this is to confirm an ignorance to the history of GP racing over the last 16 seasons.

Gaz · Apr 9, 2016

michaelm said:
SNS tyres were abolished for 2007, so if anything Rossi was theoretically on the tyre developed specifically for the Ducati, although rumours persist it wasn't the same tyre Stoner had in 2007.

True Mike but I do also seem to recall Bridgestone making 'efforts' to produce a tyre that suited the Yamaha as the Ducati Tyre was a 'special' tyre in terms of construction.

May well be wrong, and that does not detract from the fact that VR was on his first year on Bridgestone compared to CS and Ducati

Dr No · Apr 9, 2016

JPSLotus said:
Sorry Talpa...in your desperate haste to try and elevate your idol's status in a place that overwhelmingly sees Rossi for the fraud he is, you make the fatal mistake of attempting to diminish the important of the Saturday Night Specials for Valentino Rossi.

To try and deny the importance of the SNS tires, is to deny the importance of tires and how custom made tires can alter an entire race in any given motor sport.

Rossi was competing on an entirely different level from everyone else not by way of skill, but by way of what Mark Donohue termed in another era, "the unfair advantage". To deny, or even to rationalize this is to confirm an ignorance to the history of GP racing over the last 16 seasons.

Hang on now, JPS. Mark's 'Unfair Advantage' was down to countless hours of thinking, testing, experimenting and hard graft. Not getting tailored tyres.
Great book

michaelm · Apr 9, 2016

Gaz said:
True Mike but I do also seem to recall Bridgestone making 'efforts' to produce a tyre that suited the Yamaha as the Ducati Tyre was a 'special' tyre in terms of construction.

May well be wrong, and that does not detract from the fact that VR was on his first year on Bridgestone compared to CS and Ducati

Sure. The argument is whether the high-tech multi-compound asymmetric tyre on which Stoner won the 2007 championship was taken away from him/Ducati in 2008.

JPSLotus · Apr 9, 2016

Dr No said:
Hang on now, JPS. Mark's 'Unfair Advantage' was down to countless hours of thinking, testing, experimenting and hard graft. Not getting tailored tyres.
Great book

Don't forget acid dipped chassis for the Trans Am series or the 917/30 that destroyed the Can-Am series for good.

That aside I hold Mark Donohue in very high regard...he was a local boy who grew up a few towns over from where I did before going to Brown University. Sadly there's not so much as a memorial in the town in which he grew up in. Incredible talent that could win behind the wheel of virtually anything he drove and lived up to his nickname Captain Nice. Then the Osterreichring accident happened in 1975...and well that was that. Such a pity since I believe he would have won in Formula 1 with more time.

Any point being is Rossi has possessed a true unfair advantage for many years. It undermines the very foundation of the sport.

Dr No · Apr 9, 2016

Acid dipping causing crinkles in the roof of your car? Just cover it with vinyl ;-)

povol · Apr 9, 2016

JPSLotus said:
No one said he won by 25 seconds or ever implied such a thing.

Not only did i not imply or say such a thing, i put the winning margin in my post. Boppers, so determined to save the false legacy.

JPSLotus · Apr 9, 2016

Dr No said:
Acid dipping causing crinkles in the roof of your car? Just cover it with vinyl ;-)

It's just for looks guys, nothing to see here!

JPSLotus · Apr 9, 2016

povol said:
Not only did i not imply or say such a thing, i put the winning margin in my post. Boppers, so determined to save the false legacy.

They will have the false legacy at large sadly, but I'd like to see this place be the one corner of the internet where no quarter is given to Valentino Rossi. Even though many of the boppers would vehemently deny this, this place is the only forum I've seen that assessed Rossi truthfully.

paparazzo · Apr 9, 2016

povol said:
Not only did i not imply or say such a thing, i put the winning margin in my post. Boppers, so determined to save the false legacy.

Hi gramps, I see you're as miserable as ever.

Oh yes, the legacy is real and will be cemented yet again after the 10th. Valentino loves you.

JPSLotus said:
They will have the false legacy at large sadly, but I'd like to see this place be the one corner of the internet where no quarter is given to Valentino Rossi. Even though many of the boppers would vehemently deny this, this place is the only forum I've seen that assessed Rossi truthfully.

The only thing that is truthfully is that Valentino Rossi has consumed your entire mind and soul. I love to come in here and see you squirm with every post and talk 'legacy'. The facts are all in the stats, you are denying facts, replacing them with your personal opinion that really nobody gives a .... about. Pure comedy. I can picture you guys all together, powerslide convention, this comes to mind....

MdubSTYLIE · Apr 9, 2016

paparazzo said:
Hi gramps, I see you're as miserable as ever. Oh yes, the legacy is real and will be cemented yet again after the 10th. Valentino loves you.

The only thing that is truthfully is that Valentino Rossi has consumed your entire mind and soul. I love to come in here and see you squirm with every post and talk 'legacy'. The facts are all in the stats, you are denying facts, replacing them with your personal opinion that really nobody gives a .... about. Pure comedy. I can picture you guys all together, powerslide convention, this comes to mind....

I bet you came up with that quicker than your mom can get down the stairs with your pizza rolls.

JPSLotus · Apr 9, 2016

Just remember, Talpa is the guy who fled the site when his hero didn't deliver on the title he assumed was a foregone conclusion.

paparazzo · Apr 9, 2016

JPSLotus said:
Just remember, Talpa is the guy who fled the site when his hero didn't deliver on the title he assumed was a foregone conclusion.

Clearly, you are delusional. I am not Talpa and have no idea who Talpa is. Your Valentino Rossi obsession has taken over your mental state as well, you better hope he doesn't deliver any more results.

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