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Marc has had his fair share of incidents, but he was young and eager and I think he has learnt many valuable lessons from them. Although I don't agree with the title of this video, its a good collection of clips all the same.

 
Gaz said:
A chequered flag only means the end of the session or race, nowhere is it written in the rules that I have seen does it state that a rider MUST slow down (let us just go with the letter of the rule, not what common sense and practice may dictate) so in essence he is under no written obligation to slow.

Now, before you ask ............. I said back when the incident happened and will say again ......... feather slaps do not a lesson teach.
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yep marquez was reckless but your spot on about chequered flags. when i club raced we used to carry on racing after the chequered flag for fun, until the marshals waved the yellows before coming into the pits. nothing was ever said

whatever is said about marquez or any of the top level riders, there is only one who made a deliberate act to run someone wide with the intention of getting them out of the way of HIS chsmpionship. whatever level your at, to think you have a god given right to win a title at any cost is totally wrong
 
Gaz said:
It ends the session and the rider is to return to the pits ............ those that I have seen (and they are not MotoGP rules) do not make it mandatory that a rider should slow (will check FIM rule book later)

It was once said to me that the reason why you often do not find the words 'must slow' in a rule book is that you cannot define slow in terms of an acceptable decrease in speed.

It does exist in regards to yellow flags and even then is ignored (it is not known as the catchup flag in car racing for no reason - another of my personal peeves as there is not enough attention bought to punish constant flag ignorers)


Edit. From page 49 of the FIM Rulebook - Regulations and documents: FIM Website

Chequered Black / White Flag
This flag will be waved at the finish line to indicate the finish of race or
practice session.

At a glance, below is the only mention of having to slow

Two yellow flags waved together at the flag marshal post indicate that
there is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track.
The riders must slow down and be prepared to stop. Overtaking is
forbidden up until the point where the green flag is waved.
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waving blues are the same, the first instint of a rider being lapped is to slow down and try and move offline. you are told during the liecence session by actually slowing down and moving offline is more hazardous, just do what you noramally do, the faster rider can then plan there pass easier.
 
Richy56 said:
waving blues are the same, the first instint of a rider being lapped is to slow down and try and move offline. you are told during the liecence session by actually slowing down and moving offline is more hazardous, just do what you noramally do, the faster rider can then plan there pass easier.
Click to expand...


Mate I have live track experience. Never won a race ever. I'd often see blue flags in the closing stages of a moto and absolutely would never change lines unless i had to. For my own experience, the leaders coming back around again were frightening, crazy pace. I was scared to be in the way; particularly when hitting ing the tabltops and triple jumps. Rule #1 be predictable.
 
Barbedwirebikerr said:
Mate I have live track experience. Never won a race ever. I'd often see blue flags in the closing stages of a moto and absolutely would never change lines unless i had to. For my own experience, the leaders coming back around again were frightening, crazy pace. I was scared to be in the way; particularly when hitting ing the tabltops and triple jumps. Rule #1 be predictable.
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never raced competitive motocross, did club road racing for 8 years and not long started racing enduro.

won a couple of club races at road racing, and best i got was second at a national club race. i have been lapped in mixed races, i mainly raced smaller bikes (650s) and when the big bikes came past, holy .........

fair play for doing motocross, those boys are nuts and fit as ...., could never get the hang of big jumps.
 
Richy56 said:
waving blues are the same, the first instint of a rider being lapped is to slow down and try and move offline. you are told during the liecence session by actually slowing down and moving offline is more hazardous, just do what you noramally do, the faster rider can then plan there pass easier.
Click to expand...

Very true and have given that very talk a few times over the years so know all of it with the basics being that you hold your line and the others will get around you, the blue is basically to alert you that a faster rider is coming and will soon be passing.

I have seen some very poor rider behaviour and mistakes made under blue, yellow, red and chequered flags.

Another flag often ignored (aside from yellow) is the white flag as that is sometimes a sign of more danger than is yellow
 
AJV80 said:
Marc has had his fair share of incidents, but he was young and eager and I think he has learnt many valuable lessons from them. Although I don't agree with the title of this video, its a good collection of clips all the same.

Click to expand...


1. In front inside line, no worse than Rossis move on Lorenzo at Misano or Pedrosas move on Rossi
2. .... move that was deemed to be ok because of a precedence set by Rossi
3. Marquez inside other rider should've picked it up, much like Hayden should've on the weekend.
4. Has a moment should've looked for others as he did slow down but doesn't really change his line and was in front which according to Rossi fans after Assen 2015 is everything even if you're on the outside
5. No excuses but certainly not vindictive, his teams fault as much as his.
6. Again ...... up, was a rookie and don't the yellow flags say caution no passing etc but not slow down.

None of those incidents are as bad as Rossis due to intent.
 
moto vudu said:
It was no mistake that Marquez refused to slow down after the chequered flag. Marquez didn't intend on crashing into Wilaroit the same way Rossi didn't intend for Marquez to crash after he decided to slow down and run him wide.

Marquez' recklessness resulted in the unintended consequence of a high-speed crash with Wilaroit nearly killing him.

Rossi's recklessness resulted in the unintended consequence of Marquez making contact and going down.

Not a big ....... difference when it comes to intent, but a huge ....... difference in the level of danger between the two incidents.

Of course you'll want to argue that Rossi did intend for Marquez to crash, but you only see what you want to see. There are far better ways to intentionally crash out another rider than to execute a slow, off-line, block pass while depending on your target rider to turn into you (hoping you don't go down as well).
Click to expand...

It was a mistake, it was the definition of mistake. Also and I could be wrong but didn't his team send him out once the checkered flag had been waved?

Rossis move was a result of vindictive intent, whether he meant to crash Marquez isn't the point though even if he did we will never know. He will never admit it. It's interesting you're willing to take Rossis word that he didn't mean to crash out Marquez but not Marquezs word that he wasn't ....... with Rossi just racing him for position like he is entitled to do.

The fact there are better ways to crash someone doesn't matter either, by the time he did what he did he was seeing red. Absolutely fuming, had already gestured at Marquez, nearly high sided twice in an effort to keep pace with Marquez and then while looking at him and sizing him up attempted to push him off track causing Marquez to fall. The speed of the severity of the crash doesn't matter, things can still happen during a slow speed crash and Marquez was lucky to escape uninjured.

Intent is kind of a big deal in this world, I don't know if you've noticed. It's the difference between manslaughter and murder. Its the difference between accidently hitting someone with a bat and fracturing their skull and assaulting someone and being fined/sent to jail etc despite causing less injuries than the bat. Again intent is everything.
 
AJV80 said:
I dont think the person who made the video or anybody else was implying that they were??
Click to expand...

No they weren't but Vudu brought up Marquezs past to say Rossis incident was ok. This video was also likely made by a Rossi fanboy trying to say that Marquez isn't clean and it was deserved etc.
 
p4p1 said:
It was a mistake, it was the definition of mistake. Also and I could be wrong but didn't his team send him out once the checkered flag had been waved?

Rossis move was a result of vindictive intent, whether he meant to crash Marquez isn't the point though even if he did we will never know. He will never admit it. It's interesting you're willing to take Rossis word that he didn't mean to crash out Marquez but not Marquezs word that he wasn't ....... with Rossi just racing him for position like he is entitled to do.

The fact there are better ways to crash someone doesn't matter either, by the time he did what he did he was seeing red. Absolutely fuming, had already gestured at Marquez, nearly high sided twice in an effort to keep pace with Marquez and then while looking at him and sizing him up attempted to push him off track causing Marquez to fall. The speed of the severity of the crash doesn't matter, things can still happen during a slow speed crash and Marquez was lucky to escape uninjured.

Intent is kind of a big deal in this world, I don't know if you've noticed. It's the difference between manslaughter and murder. Its the difference between accidently hitting someone with a bat and fracturing their skull and assaulting someone and being fined/sent to jail etc despite causing less injuries than the bat. Again intent is everything.
Click to expand...

No, Marc's team did not send him out after the session had ended. Marc wanted to go out with 50 seconds left because he had already lost time that session due to a crash. He wanted to get some feel for the bike setup at speed. Marc cared more about testing his bike setup than he did about all the other riders on track. He started a flying hot lap after the session had already ended. That is reckless, immature, and irresponsible.

Whether Rossi intended to crash Marquez is the point. He admitted his intent was to run Marquez wide and that is what his actions on track show happening. There was never a point where he made direct contact with Marc in an attempt to force him down, something someone with intent to make sure Marc hit the ground would've done. As for Marquez' word that he was only racing, RD didn't agree with him after reviewing his data. They said they found some merit to Rossi's claims (otherwise Rossi's penalty would've been more harsh).
 
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moto vudu said:
Whether Rossi intended to crash Marquez is the point. He admitted his intent was to run Marquez wide and that is what his actions on track show happening. There was never a point where he made direct contact with Marc in an attempt to force him down, something someone with intent to make sure Marc hit the ground would've done. As for Marquez' word that he was only racing, RD didn't agree with him after reviewing his data. said they found some merit to Rossi's claims (otherwise Rossi's penalty would've been more harsh).
Click to expand...

Wrong. The call should be made in the next 2 laps and it should be black flag to Rossi. If it was any other rider, that is what they would have done. And if Marc did something on purpose, like what you say they found, it wasn't illegal. He did not recive any penalties for that, he did not recive a worning. If it happened the way you see it, it was unsportsman like behaviour and in motogp it's not illegal. Knocking someone off track however is.
So you say Rossi reacted to provocation? Do you do the same while driving? This is acceptable to you? Someone passes you aggressively on a highway and you just hit him like in bumpercars?
And his penalty was reduced because Marc was like a fly around him? BS! It was a Solomon decision. We give you points, you start from the back of the grid and you can still fight for 10th.
And what did he do? He started complaining to courts. That would buy him time. The penalty would have to wait until decision is made by the court and this takes time. It didn't work out for him as he had no proof and he is still crying and whinning about it. And he always will.
 
moto vudu said:
No, Marc's team did not send him out after the session had ended. Marc wanted to go out with 50 seconds left because he had already lost time that session due to a crash. He wanted to get some feel for the bike setup at speed. Marc cared more about testing his bike setup than he did about all the other riders on track. He started a flying hot lap after the session had already ended. That is reckless, immature, and irresponsible.

Whether Rossi intended to crash Marquez is the point. He admitted his intent was to run Marquez wide and that is what his actions on track show happening. There was never a point where he made direct contact with Marc in an attempt to force him down, something someone with intent to make sure Marc hit the ground would've done. As for Marquez' word that he was only racing, RD didn't agree with him after reviewing his data. They said they found some merit to Rossi's claims (otherwise Rossi's penalty would've been more harsh).
Click to expand...

Actually Rossi did make direct contact with MM. It was the product of the intent to run wide, which frankly would have been silly to deny that there was any intent to run him wide as the entire move could not be simply written off as missing the turn in point for the corner. Once VR had the intent to run wide, everything else came off of that. If he never makes the decision to run wide, nothing ever happens.

As for the RD decision being proof VR's claims had some merit, I genuinely wonder how you can type that with a straight face. All that incident did was expose RD for being absolutely beholden to Dorna, such to the point, that they refused to black flag Rossi, and refused to give him a race ban. Mike Webb had zero proof of any of his moronic statements. Citing RD as proof, given how dubious Webb's ........ claim was, is not your finest hour Vudu. Rossi was never going to get punished because he didn't for any of his dangerous riding incidents in his past.
 
Finish line said:
Wrong. The call should be made in the next 2 laps and it should be black flag to Rossi. If it was any other rider, that is what they would have done. And if Marc did something on purpose, like what you say they found, it wasn't illegal. He did not recive any penalties for that, he did not recive a worning. If it happened the way you see it, it was unsportsman like behaviour and in motogp it's not illegal. Knocking someone off track however is.
So you say Rossi reacted to provocation? Do you do the same while driving? This is acceptable to you? Someone passes you aggressively on a highway and you just hit him like in bumpercars?
And his penalty was reduced because Marc was like a fly around him? BS! It was a Solomon decision. We give you points, you start from the back of the grid and you can still fight for 10th.
And what did he do? He started complaining to courts. That would buy him time. The penalty would have to wait until decision is made by the court and this takes time. It didn't work out for him as he had no proof and he is still crying and whinning about it. And he always will.
Click to expand...

RD didn't call for a black flag because they wanted to review the entire incident from start to finish. RD penalized Marquez for his actions indirectly by not giving Rossi a more harsh penalty. Rossi is the one who broke a rule, but Marquez was not found to be entirely innocent by RD. You can disagree with RD's call all you want, but they have access to the data that we do not.
 
moto vudu said:
RD didn't call for a black flag because they wanted to review the entire incident from start to finish. RD penalized Marquez for his actions indirectly by not giving Rossi a more harsh penalty. Rossi is the one who broke a rule, but Marquez was not found to be entirely innocent by RD. You can disagree with RD's call all you want, but they have access to the data that we do not.
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wonder why honda wanted to make the data public but were stopped by rd and dorna to prptect the sport, because they have proof that vr kicked mm lever

this has been debated many times. i know many rossi fans who nearly all have said rossi was entirely at fault, its only some who are blind to it and cant handle that there hero wasnt fast enough and tried to do his talking off the track, which backfired massively.
 
JPSLotus said:
Actually Rossi did make direct contact with MM. It was the product of the intent to run wide, which frankly would have been silly to deny that there was any intent to run him wide as the entire move could not be simply written off as missing the turn in point for the corner. Once VR had the intent to run wide, everything else came off of that. If he never makes the decision to run wide, nothing ever happens.

As for the RD decision being proof VR's claims had some merit, I genuinely wonder how you can type that with a straight face. All that incident did was expose RD for being absolutely beholden to Dorna, such to the point, that they refused to black flag Rossi, and refused to give him a race ban. Mike Webb had zero proof of any of his moronic statements. Citing RD as proof, given how dubious Webb's ........ claim was, is not your finest hour Vudu. Rossi was never going to get punished because he didn't for any of his dangerous riding incidents in his past.
Click to expand...


Intent to run Marquez wide is not intent to make direct contact with him. Rossi had plenty of opportunities to hit Marquez, but when the contact actually occurred Rossi had quit ....... with Marquez and got back on the throttle to complete the turn.

There are riders are running each other wide at every race and for sure some of it is done intentionally... but they usually never admit to it so we just call it a "racing incident".
 
Richy56 said:
wonder why honda wanted to make the data public but were stopped by rd and dorna to prptect the sport, because they have proof that vr kicked mm lever

this has been debated many times. i know many rossi fans who nearly all have said rossi was entirely at fault, its only some who are blind to it and cant handle that there hero wasnt fast enough and tried to do his talking off the track, which backfired massively.
Click to expand...

It's not possible or Honda to have data that could show a kick. Honda would need to have some sort of sensor on VR's leg to show that. What Honda's data likely shows is the sharp application of Marc's brake lever, however that doesn't prove a kick! A more reasonable explanation is Marc's lever was pinched on Rossi's bike.

If you think Rossi sucks, don't give him superhuman abilities such as being able to kick at speeds faster than HD cameras can record and with better accuracy than Taekwondo black belts because Rossi had to miss MM's brake guard while not looking and accelerating a GP bike at the same time.
 
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p4p1 said:
No they weren't but Vudu brought up Marquezs past to say Rossis incident was ok. This video was also likely made by a Rossi fanboy trying to say that Marquez isn't clean and it was deserved etc.
Click to expand...

The title of the video would suggest that, allthough I don't find the video itself call's him dirty (as the title suggests) but more or less is just saying he needs to be a little more careful. I'm don't really know if the person posting it on Youtube and naming it was the original creator of the video or just a VR fanboy as you say, using it to try and discredit Marc Marquez after the Sepang incident.

From memory wasn't the introduction of the formalised penalty points system implemented by race direction due in large to many of the incidents involving Marc Marquez during his Moto2 season?

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2012/12/20/analyzing_motogp_s_new_rules_the_marquez.html
 
moto vudu said:
It's not possible or Honda to have data that could show a kick. Honda would need to have some sort of sensor on VR's leg to show that. What Honda's data likely shows is the sharp application of Marc's brake lever, however that doesn't prove a kick! A more reasonable explanation is Marc's lever was pinched on Rossi's bike.

If you think Rossi sucks, don't give him superhuman abilities such as being able to kick at speeds faster than HD cameras can record and with better accuracy than Taekwondo black belts because Rossi had to miss MM's brake guard while not looking and accelerating a GP bike at the same time.
Click to expand...
are you for real?

its called telemetry, you know the thing that shows when brakes are applied, let off, and throttle are applied etc. why would honda want to make it public at the time.

there is a massive difference between running someone wide and going straight on slowing down and making no attempt to make a corner.
 

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