Moto3 Mayhem

JPSLotus · Oct 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
Intent to run Marquez wide is not intent to make direct contact with him. Rossi had plenty of opportunities to hit Marquez, but when the contact actually occurred Rossi had quit ....... with Marquez and got back on the throttle to complete the turn.

There are riders are running each other wide at every race and for sure some of it is done intentionally... but they usually never admit to it so we just call it a "racing incident".

You're not understanding this.

Once you have the intent to run MM wide, and follow through on that intent, everything else that happens is a direct result of that initial action. Therefore Rossi was fully at fault for the contact that occurred, and for MM going down. If he takes that corner normally, no such thing happens.

Running wide at other races?

This was not a traditional block pass. Engaging in false equivalence arguments doesn't strengthen your claims, it only further detracts from them.

You're really doing your absolute best to be the American Daniboy eh?

p4p1 · Oct 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
No, Marc's team did not send him out after the session had ended. Marc wanted to go out with 50 seconds left because he had already lost time that session due to a crash. He wanted to get some feel for the bike setup at speed. Marc cared more about testing his bike setup than he did about all the other riders on track. He started a flying hot lap after the session had already ended. That is reckless, immature, and irresponsible.

Whether Rossi intended to crash Marquez is the point. He admitted his intent was to run Marquez wide and that is what his actions on track show happening. There was never a point where he made direct contact with Marc in an attempt to force him down, something someone with intent to make sure Marc hit the ground would've done. As for Marquez' word that he was only racing, RD didn't agree with him after reviewing his data. They said they found some merit to Rossi's claims (otherwise Rossi's penalty would've been more harsh).

Well at what 18 years old you can sure bet he was immature.

His data didn't prove anything, if anything his data proved that he was racing as it was never made public that RD had proof that Marquez was indeed deliberately trying to .... with Rossi. Vudu if you actually watch the race agin you'll notice that Rossi immediately passes Marquez after being passed like you would if you wanted to .... with somoenes pace while Marquez gives it a few corners to try and find the best place to pass without being repassed. They said they believe him that is it, not that they found merit to his claims. Mike Webb did his best to admonish Rossi of any guilt despite being the only guilty party.

By trying to run Marquez off track he forced Marquez to try and turn which caused the crash. Race Direction found that Rossis actions had caused the contact which caused Marquez to fall.

p4p1 · Oct 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
RD didn't call for a black flag because they wanted to review the entire incident from start to finish. RD penalized Marquez for his actions indirectly by not giving Rossi a more harsh penalty. Rossi is the one who broke a rule, but Marquez was not found to be entirely innocent by RD. You can disagree with RD's call all you want, but they have access to the data that we do not.

RD didn't give a black flag because it wanted interest in Valencia. Marquez was found entirely innocent by RD given by the fact that Mike Webb stated 'Marquez didn't break any rules'. RD was completely overhauled as was the points system for what seems to be no other reason than to make sure if Rossi got any more penalty points this season they wouldn't hold the same weight they used to. They even changed the rule where if you've served a penalty ie started from the back of the grid but then get another point after a point has expired you won't have to start from the back again. Completely for Rossis benefit. They had no issue in punishing Quatararo twice for the same rule.

p4p1 · Oct 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
RD didn't call for a black flag because they wanted to review the entire incident from start to finish. RD penalized Marquez for his actions indirectly by not giving Rossi a more harsh penalty. Rossi is the one who broke a rule, but Marquez was not found to be entirely innocent by RD. You can disagree with RD's call all you want, but they have access to the data that we do not.

I don't think there is one true statement in this post.

moto vudu · Oct 26, 2016

Richy56 said:
are you for real?

its called telemetry, you know the thing that shows when brakes are applied, let off, and throttle are applied etc. why would honda want to make it public at the time.

there is a massive difference between running someone wide and going straight on slowing down and making no attempt to make a corner.

Telemetry will not show any proof of a kick. Seriously, it'll show MM's brake lever applied and the bike hitting the ground, but it cannot show what caused the brake lever to be applied. Honda never went public because they know it doesn't prove anything. Rossi also wanted Honda to go public with their "proof data". Honda claiming they had proof was just a way to back their rider since Yamaha was backing theirs.

moto vudu · Oct 26, 2016

p4p1 said:
I don't think there is one true statement in this post.

It's based on what Webb stated in his interview after Sepang.

p4p1 · Oct 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
Intent to run Marquez wide is not intent to make direct contact with him. Rossi had plenty of opportunities to hit Marquez, but when the contact actually occurred Rossi had quit ....... with Marquez and got back on the throttle to complete the turn.

There are riders are running each other wide at every race and for sure some of it is done intentionally... but they usually never admit to it so we just call it a "racing incident".

Rossi had stopped ....... with Marquez at the time of the incident? What the .... were you watching? It can't be a racing incident when Rossi stopped racing.

p4p1 · Oct 26, 2016

AJV80 said:
The title of the video would suggest that, allthough I don't find the video itself call's him dirty (as the title suggests) but more or less is just saying he needs to be a little more careful. I'm don't really know if the person posting it on Youtube and naming it was the original creator of the video or just a VR fanboy as you say, using it to try and discredit Marc Marquez after the Sepang incident.

From memory wasn't the introduction of the formalised penalty points system implemented by race direction due in large to many of the incidents involving Marc Marquez during his Moto2 season?

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2012/12/20/analyzing_motogp_s_new_rules_the_marquez.html

Yes the penalty system was introduced with Marquez being a big influence on the decision. Again a 17-18 year old kid who thinks he's invincible is pretty normal.

Richy56 · Oct 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
Telemetry will not show any proof of a kick. Seriously, it'll show MM's brake lever applied and the bike hitting the ground, but it cannot show what caused the brake lever to be applied. Honda never went public because they know it doesn't prove anything. Rossi also wanted Honda to go public with their "proof data". Honda claiming they had proof was just a way to back their rider since Yamaha was backing theirs.

correct, telemetry will show a sharp application of the front brake at very low speed, coupled with numerous vidoes of a leg off the foot peg in a kick like fashion.

yamahas telemetry will show a bike going straight and slowing down when it should be turning hard right.

thanks for clarifying, case closed

p4p1 · Oct 26, 2016

Richy56 said:
are you for real?

its called telemetry, you know the thing that shows when brakes are applied, let off, and throttle are applied etc. why would honda want to make it public at the time.

there is a massive difference between running someone wide and going straight on slowing down and making no attempt to make a corner.

I think everyone except for Vudu can rationally accept that if the data proved that Marquez was deliberately ....... with Rossi the statement made by Webb would've gone more like 'we found merit to Rossis claims and the reviewed data proved that Marquez was slowing down in an effort to impede Rossis race but as he broke no such rule in doing so we are unable to punish him despite it being against the ethics of the sport. Rossi however did break a rule and has to be penalised however we will take the proven provaction into account when deciding on the penalty.'

AJV80 · Oct 26, 2016

Finish line said:
Wrong. The call should be made in the next 2 laps and it should be black flag to Rossi. If it was any other rider, that is what they would have done. And if Marc did something on purpose, like what you say they found, it wasn't illegal. He did not recive any penalties for that, he did not recive a worning. If it happened the way you see it, it was unsportsman like behaviour and in motogp it's not illegal. Knocking someone off track however is.
So you say Rossi reacted to provocation? Do you do the same while driving? This is acceptable to you? Someone passes you aggressively on a highway and you just hit him like in bumpercars?
And his penalty was reduced because Marc was like a fly around him? BS! It was a Solomon decision. We give you points, you start from the back of the grid and you can still fight for 10th.
And what did he do? He started complaining to courts. That would buy him time. The penalty would have to wait until decision is made by the court and this takes time. It didn't work out for him as he had no proof and he is still crying and whinning about it. And he always will.

I agree, the black flag should have been used imediatley. My jaw dropped when i saw that incident. It was very clear that Vale very deliberately stood it up to run Marc wide ... with clarity like that of the incident I can see no reason why they couldn't make the decision during the race.

p4p1 · Oct 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
It's based on what Webb stated in his interview after Sepang.

It's not, Webb again said he believed not he could prove, with data being the way he could prove it. Whether he truely did or not is a question as it's quite clear that at least at the time RD was influenced by DORNAS wishes.

p4p1 · Oct 26, 2016

AJV80 said:
I agree, the black flag should have been used imediatley. My jaw dropped when i saw that incident. It was very clear that Vale very deliberately stood it up to run Marc wide ... with clarity like that of the incident I can see no reason why they couldn't make the decision during the race.

Yes they wanted to review the incident what the .... was there to review? If Rossi hadn't have pedalled his and Uccios ........ theory at Sepang the incident would've been looked at for what it truely was.

Dr No · Oct 26, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
Really? not even Chris Donald bothers to do that anymore.

The question was more to do with how you discovered it in the first place?

Incidentally, Daniboy is Terry Fuckwitt. Plenty of 'Brown Bottles' on here too.

Who's Roger Irrelevant? Sid? Paul Whicker?

I don't recall how I was introduced to it. It was printed here starting in the early 90s(?) so around that time my friends and I got into it - back when it was 1 colour on newspaper print. I still remember sitting on a tram and getting strange looks from fellow passengers...as I later discovered, the back cover had a picture of a cleft...with a big headline along the lines of: CELEBRITY BUMCRACKS #23: GEORGE MICHAEL....good times

AJV80 · Oct 26, 2016

p4p1 said:
Yes the penalty system was introduced with Marquez being a big influence on the decision. Again a 17-18 year old kid who thinks he's invincible is pretty normal.

Still Marc certainly wasn't the first 17-18 year old to be racing in the GP series. If his feelings of invincibility/riding behaviour was so normal to young riders in GP, they either would have had the need to bring in these rules a lot sooner or maybe not even identified it as an issue worth addressing seeing i was such normal behaviour..

Arrabbiata1 · Oct 26, 2016

Dr No said:
Who's Roger Irrelevant? Sid? Paul Whicker?

Edited - to avoid causing unnecessary offence.

p4p1 · Oct 26, 2016

AJV80 said:
Still Marc certainly wasn't the first 17-18 year old to be racing in the GP series. If his feelings of invincibility/riding behaviour was so normal to young riders in GP, they either would have had the need to bring in these rules a lot sooner or maybe not even identified it as an issue worth addressing seeing i was such normal behaviour..

He's arguably the fastest of those kids though, guys in moto3 seem to do similar .... ups every week. A lot of those in the video are once where he is in front and inside but the other a guy didn't pick his bike up. The one where he's on the outside he is still infront so they're certainly race incidents. Wallariot certainly isn't and I don't think the Lorenzo pass was either but the precedent had already been set.

Dr No · Oct 26, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
Daniboy again, possibly JK and myself respectively. I am in fact an imposing man of the cloth.

And Fruit T Bun?
Big Vern = post-Sepang yellow hordes.
I am surprised you no longer read it. Raffles (when he appears) is brill. As is Major Misunderstanding. And there is still enough gold in Letterbocks, profanisaurus and Top Tips to make it worthwhile.

moto vudu · Oct 26, 2016

Richy56 said:
correct, telemetry will show a sharp application of the front brake at very low speed, coupled with numerous vidoes of a leg off the foot peg in a kick like fashion.

yamahas telemetry will show a bike going straight and slowing down when it should be turning hard right.

thanks for clarifying, case closed

You only see VR's foot off the peg AFTER MM's bike made contact with it. None of the video angles show VR's foot leaving the peg prior to MM's bike making contact! This is important because VR cannot kick at the same time a bike is pressed against his leg and MM's front end started to tuck as soon as the right side of his bike hit Rossi's bike (most likely cause is his brake lever got pinched). The video showing Rossi's leg off the peg is while MM's bike is falling down and Rossi is accelerating... most likely cause is the leg or foot was hit/pulled off the peg.

No, the telemetry will not show proof of any kick.

moto vudu · Oct 26, 2016

Again, does Marquez DESERVE to have a rider behave in a reckless manner and smash the ... out of him like he did to Wilaroit?

It actually almost happened at the Redbull Ring when Iannone nearly smashed Marquez into another dimension. I still feel it's odd how that incident got swept under the rug.

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