Moto3 Mayhem

JPSLotus · Oct 26, 2016

Daniboy said:
Haha, love the comic strip, bought Viz for many years.
Unfortunately for you and Arrab (if he also joins your opinion) your opinion of me is absolutely worthless , you have mistaken me for someone who gives a ..... BTW have you deleted your twitter account? I quite enjoyed your struggles trying to condense a dissertation into 140 chrs. Shrt&swt is key.

No doubt you bought Viz for years Dani.

It's not often you find your one true soulmate in comic form.

So tell me Dani, can you post anything remotely resembling an original thought on the subject of grand prix motorcycle racing that doesn't involve what we've all come to expect from the yellow brigade? I have yet to see you post anything of substance that doesn't involve you copying and pasting someone else's thoughts, and trying to pass them off as your own.

moto vudu · Oct 26, 2016

Gaz said:
But as I showed you some posts back ............. NOT slowing down after the chequered flag breaks no rules so he cannot be penalised for that activity

What he can and was penalised for was his input into the incident with Willarott (again, no comments on whether I feel the punishment was fair), just as was Rossi penalised.

Marc did break at least one rule.

Marc Marquez' Moto2 championship assault has just suffered a major setback. The Catalunya Caixa rider has been punished for an incident after FP1 at Phillip Island ended, and will start Sunday's Moto2 race from the back of the grid.

The incident occurred at the end of the first session of free practice for Moto2 for the Australian Grand Prix. After a crash early in the session, which saw him stuck in the pits for most of practice, Marquez was sent back out onto the track with about a minute to go in the session. He set out on a hot lap, but did not make it all the way round in time to get in a second lap. He continued around the first two corners at high speed, and at Turn 3, ran into the back of Ratthapark Wilairot, who was slowing down again after a practice start. The speed differential between Marquez and Wilairot meant the crash was a big one, the Spaniard lucky to walk away with just a cut on his brow, while Wilairot was airlifted to the local hospital, where scans revealed that despite injuries to his leg and back, he had no broken bones.

The crash was costly in two ways for Marquez. Firstly, he was punished by Race Direction for dangerous riding, and handed a one-minute time penalty to be added to his qualifying time on Saturday, leaving him to start from the back of the grid. His team appealed against the penalty, saying that Marquez had not seen the Thai rider, but the FIM stewards upheld the ruling. But the crash also cost Marquez his bike: the 2012 Suter chassis which Marquez had been using since Aragon - of which he had just one - was written off in the crash, damaged so badly that repair is almost impossible. The Spaniard will be forced to use an older 2011 chassis; though Marquez was already quick on the older bike, the newer chassis offered some significant improvements.

The penalty led to much discussion both inside and outside the paddock, with opinion split over whether the penalty was too harsh or too light. Whatever time Marquez sets during qualifying, having a minute added to it means that he will always be starting from the back of the grid, with the other 38 entries starting ahead of him. Marquez will still have to set a lap within the 107% qualifying limit, however, though the extra minute added to his QP time will be added after it is measured against the 107% limit rather than before. The rule under which Marquez was punished allows a number of punishments, including a time penalty, ride through, fine, loss of championship points or suspension. Both a ride through or loss of points are not appropriate in such a case, as these are usually only applied to incidents which occur during the race. Some in the paddock felt that a suspension was in order, pointing to the example of John Hopkins at Motegi in 2003, while others pointed out that a minute was an excessive time penalty, especially as anything over the 107% mark (for Moto2, just under 7 seconds) is essentially meaningless. And the objection to imposing a fine is that this is something that Marquez' team, the richest in the paddock, could easily afford and it could set a precedent, punishing poorer teams disproportionately.

Below is the official press release containing the decision of Race Direction:

2011 FIM Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix

Iveco Australian Grand Prix: decision of the Race Direction

On Friday 14th october after passing the chequered flag at the end of the 1st Free Practice rider Marc Márquez (SPA) rode in an irresponsible manner, causing danger to rider Ratthapark Wilairot (THA) which is an infringement to the Art. 1.21.2 of the 2011 FIM Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix Regulations. The Race Direction has decided to impose a time penalty of 1 minute to be added to the qualification time of Marc Márquez.

An appeal has been lodged.

The FIM Stewards have confirmed the decision of the Race Direction.

The decision of the FIM Stewards is final.

https://motomatters.com/news/2011/10/14/marquez_handed_time_penalty_for_free_pra.html

Gaz · Oct 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
Marc did break at least one rule.

https://motomatters.com/news/2011/10/14/marquez_handed_time_penalty_for_free_pra.html

Absolutely and as it should have been (although as i said at the time ......... feather slap does not a lesson teach, something that applies all to often in sports). To be honest I could not remember if he was chanrged with dangerous/reckless ro careless but either way I was more than aware that he was penalised as he should have been.

But you original assertion was that he should have slowed down after the chequer as you were of the belief that there was a rule to mandate such, yet this is not the case and for actual good reason as evidenced a few times with tragic consequences last year alone in various series throughout the world

moto vudu · Oct 26, 2016

Gaz said:
Absolutely and as it should have been (although as i said at the time ......... feather slap does not a lesson teach, something that applies all to often in sports). To be honest I could not remember if he was chanrged with dangerous/reckless ro careless but either way I was more than aware that he was penalised as he should have been.

But you original assertion was that he should have slowed down after the chequer as you were of the belief that there was a rule to mandate such, yet this is not the case and for actual good reason as evidenced a few times with tragic consequences last year alone in various series throughout the world

He should have slowed down after the chequered flag! Riders aren't supposed to slam on the brakes, but they are expected to gradually decrease their speed after the session has ended. There are riders that come to a complete stop at the end of free practice so they can practice race starts, it's not a time for any rider to continue circulating the track at high speed. There may not be a specific rule that says to slow down, but the rule that prohibits dangerous riding covers it.

Gaz · Oct 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
He should have slowed down after the chequered flag! Riders aren't supposed to slam on the brakes, but they are expected to gradually decrease their speed after the session has ended. There are riders that come to a complete stop at the end of free practice so they can practice race starts, it's not a time for any rider to continue circulating the track at high speed. There may not be a specific rule that says to slow down, but the rule that prohibits dangerous riding covers it.

Why SHOULD he if there are no rules ?

He is under NO obligation to do so as there is no rule (and as I said in the other post, the subsequent incident is irrespective)

MV, understand that there is NO RULE that mandates a rider should (your words) but they are expected to gradually decrease their speed after the session has ended irrespective of what you, I or a damn gatepost would expect may be a reasonable expectation, the FACT is that the rules do not mandate it and for good reason (fatalities of or caused by riders doing exactly that).

Yes, the vast majority of riders would have slowed but I have personally seen many riders not slow immediately and/or (using PI as the guide) until Lukey Heights as often at sessions they wish to check components etc whilst still hot/warm (of course the days of the old 2 stroke plug chops are over).

Now none of this makes an excuse for what occurred as afterall, no matter the speed differential, the overtake is the responsibility of the rider doing the passing and in this regard MM farked up.

And actually no, the rule that covers dangerous riding does NOT cover a rider not slowing as you suggest but what that rule DOES cover the ramifications of a rider at speed stuffing up (as per the issue at hand), thus why MM was charged and found guilty under that rule.

As for practice starts, there is a designated place on each track for that to occur and actually should a rider choose a non-designated part of the track they can be punished (that is a GCR as I understand it for each track).

moto vudu · Oct 26, 2016

Gaz said:
Why SHOULD he if there are no rules ?

There are a lot of things that riders can't/shouldn't do that aren't specifically spelled out in the rulebook!

Why should Marc slow down after the session? Because it is hazardous to continue at high speed since he is not the only rider on track. Continuing to ride at race speeds after the session is dangerous, reckless, and irresponsible and that's why he was penalized. There was nearly a fatality due to Marquez NOT slowing down after the session.

Gaz · Oct 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
There are a lot of things that riders can't/shouldn't do that aren't specifically spelled out in the rulebook!

Why should Marc slow down after the session? Because it is hazardous to continue at high speed since he is not the only rider on track. Continuing to ride at race speeds after the session is dangerous, reckless, and irresponsible and that's why he was penalized. There was nearly a fatality due to Marquez NOT slowing down after the session.

You are skipping the point in the defense of Valentino (given that the correlation of incidents and the way this thread has gone) and you seeming fascination with being proven correct by trying to say that riders SHOULD do an action that YOU feel is correct but where the rules do not mandate that action.

The simple FACT of the matter is that it is a sport and as such is governed by rules that mandate what a rider MUST do with anything outside of that accepted under the rules up until an incident occurs, at which time the dangerous/careless/reckless comes to play (with them not requiring a collision to classify as an incident).

Yes, Marquez was reckless/dangerous/careless but is WAS NOT his failure to SLOW for which he was penalised, it was his impacting with Willarott and that is because the impact was against the rules not the speed up until the impact.

You seem absolutely fascinated that he was penalised for not slowing, again, he was not as there IS NO RULE THAT STATES A RIDER MUST SLOW AFTER THE CHEQUERED FLAG (refer the link and extract I posted).

He was penalised for the impact which was considered as dangerous and avoidable.

As a total aside, the impact may still have occurred were Marquez toddling along at 60kmh and it is his failure to avoid the impact that consitutes dangerous (the speed is irrespective).

You may not like it MV but they are the rules, if you do not like them them by all means feel free to address your concerns to the FIM who wrote and manage the rules but guess what, they will likely care as much as you care about alternate views or opinions to that with exist within your world.

moto vudu · Oct 26, 2016

Gaz said:
You are skipping the point in the defense of Valentino (given that the correlation of incidents and the way this thread has gone) and you seeming fascination with being proven correct by trying to say that riders SHOULD do an action that YOU feel is correct but where the rules do not mandate that action.

The simple FACT of the matter is that it is a sport and as such is governed by rules that mandate what a rider MUST do with anything outside of that accepted under the rules up until an incident occurs, at which time the dangerous/careless/reckless comes to play (with them not requiring a collision to classify as an incident).

Yes, Marquez was reckless/dangerous/careless but is WAS NOT his failure to SLOW for which he was penalised, it was his impacting with Willarott and that is because the impact was against the rules not the speed up until the impact.

You seem absolutely fascinated that he was penalised for not slowing, again, he was not as there IS NO RULE THAT STATES A RIDER MUST SLOW AFTER THE CHEQUERED FLAG (refer the link and extract I posted).

He was penalised for the impact which was considered as dangerous and avoidable.

As a total aside, the impact may still have occurred were Marquez toddling along at 60kmh and it is his failure to avoid the impact that consitutes dangerous (the speed is irrespective).

You may not like it MV but they are the rules, if you do not like them them by all means feel free to address your concerns to the FIM who wrote and manage the rules but guess what, they will likely care as much as you care about alternate views or opinions to that with exist within your world.

Marquez was penalized for irresponsible riding. His reckless & irresponsible riding led to a collision with another rider. Not slowing down after a session has ended falls under "irresponsible riding". You may not like it Gaz, but those are the rules... file your complaint with FIM.

Gaz · Oct 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
Marquez was penalized for irresponsible riding. His reckless & irresponsible riding led to a collision with another rider. Not slowing down after a session has ended falls under "irresponsible riding". You may not like it Gaz, but those are the rules... file your complaint with FIM.

You are the one that is wrong.

He was penalised for the incident that was deemed dangerous, reckless or careless.

He was NOT penalised for not slowing down despite what you assert and/or claim as there is NO RULE that mandates thet he should have slowed.

can you not see the difference or do you choose not to see the difference?

You may not like but the facts remain that he was penalised for the incident, and if there was no incident I will assure you that he would not have received a penalty, thus the speed was not the problem but the fact he impacted Willarott was the issue

By the way, I see you now have a bee in the bonnet regarding Marquez, so Lorenzo is off the hook then?

Again MV, I refer you to the FIM rulebook, the link I posted some posts back when you doubted the knowledge about the rule .............. so again, feel free to take issue with the FIM.

moto vudu · Oct 26, 2016

Gaz said:
You are the one that is wrong.

He was penalised for the incident that was deemed dangerous, reckless or careless.

He was NOT penalised for not slowing down despite what you assert and/or claim as there is NO RULE that mandates thet he should have slowed.

can you not see the difference or do you choose not to see the difference?

You may not like but the facts remain that he was penalised for the incident, and if there was no incident I will assure you that he would not have received a penalty, thus the speed was not the problem but the fact he impacted Willarott was the issue

By the way, I see you now have a bee in the bonnet regarding Marquez, so Lorenzo is off the hook then?

Again MV, I refer you to the FIM rulebook, the link I posted some posts back when you doubted the knowledge about the rule .............. so again, feel free to take issue with the FIM.

Gaz, the man was penalized for irresponsible & reckless riding. It was not only the collision that was irresponsible, his refusal to decrease his speed enough to safely pass other riders on track was also irresponsible. He showed a complete disregard for the safety of others and himself. You know exactly what I'm talking about, you just don't like being proven wrong because you (and others) have claimed the difference between Marquez and Rossi is that Marquez didn't break any rule. I've shown that to be false, Marquez was in fact penalized for breaking an official rule.

Barbedwirebikerr · Oct 26, 2016

Medical update: John faces enforced stay in Australia for treatments and recovery

Following further tests in the St. Kilda Alfred Hospital in Melbourne, doctors have now found that both of John’s lungs were perforated in the Phillip Island crash and he has lost around 40% of their function at present. He has been told this will heal naturally but it will take some weeks to regain their performance.

He can exercise gently to help their healing and has a further appointment in two weeks to check progress. At this time, they are now suggesting he will not be able to fly for four to five weeks. So as a result of this he will get an enforced holiday down under!

Today John’s parents have driven him upcountry to the specialist who will operate on his thumb and make additional checks as the further tests have also shown some displacement of other bones in his hand.

He is staying positive, but is naturally very frustrated that his recovery will take some time. He will not only miss the last two races this year, just when his crew had really got the Peugeot performing at its best, but may now be excluded from end of season tests to prepare for next year.

John ask us to thank you all so much for your messages of support here and on Facebook – it means a huge amount to him!

Gaz · Oct 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
Gaz, the man was penalized for irresponsible & reckless riding. It was not only the collision that was irresponsible, his refusal to decrease his speed enough to safely pass other riders on track was also irresponsible. He showed a complete disregard for the safety of others and himself. You know exactly what I'm talking about, you just don't like being proven wrong because you (and others) have claimed the difference between Marquez and Rossi is that Marquez didn't break any rule. I've shown that to be false, Marquez was in fact penalized for breaking an official rule.

You are the wrong that is wrong.

Yes he was penalised for irresponsible and reckless riding but it was his FAILURE to avoid the collision (and thus, the subsequent impact) for which he was penalised as the rules allow that to be penalised.

You believe that his overall failure to slow at all after the chequer means that showed a complete disregard for the safety of others and himself and whilst that may be correct, again, there is no rule that states a rider MUST slow down at the chequered flag.

Now I do love the hypocrisy with the 'proven wrong' comment as if there is a case of pot, kettle black it is definitely more than one sided as you seem to wish as you have still not accepted that no rule exists to mandate slowing after the chequer have you?

As for Marquez, it is a FACT that in Sepang he broke no written rule (and check my posts buddy, that is what I have stated sine year dot and in common response to your usual posts) and I am sorry here MV, but the sport is governed and administered based on WRITTEN rules, not the opinions of you, me, my uncle sid or the dog across the road. RULES define what is allowed and what is not allowed and at Sepang (as it is Sepang that I assume you refer to as nowhere have I absolved Marequez in the Willarott incident - suggest you use that search button mate, you know, the one you dont like using) as you will find and as I have said a few times - a feather slap does not a lesson teach

Let me put it this way.

If you are driving along a road and at the last minute you see a car stopped and screech to a halt with no impact, then you will not be charged for an impact you did not have. Yes you may be charged if a police officer cared or saw the incident for negligent driving or similar.

Now, if you impacted you would definitely be charged with an offence.

What Marquez did was the second of the evils ..............

moto vudu · Oct 26, 2016

Gaz said:
You believe that his overall failure to slow at all after the chequer means that showed a complete disregard for the safety of others and himself and whilst that may be correct, again, there is no rule that states a rider MUST slow down at the chequered flag.

Once again, yes there is a rule. It's called Reckless riding. Failure to slow down after the chequered flag is reckless riding.

From wikipedia

:

Upon seeing the chequered flag and crossing the finish line, drivers are required to slow to a safe speed, and return to their garage, parc ferme, or the paddock, depending on the applicable regulations of the series.

Marquez could have been penalized for failure to slow down even if there was no collision with another rider. It's not likely that he would have been because the stewards tend to be fairly lenient.

Gaz · Oct 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
Once again, yes there is a rule. It's called Reckless riding. Failure to slow down after the chequered flag is reckless riding.

From wikipedia :

Marquez could have been penalized for failure to slow down even if there was no collision with another rider. It's not likely that he would have been because the stewards tend to be fairly leniant.

Wikipedia .... you want to quote wikipedia as a source of fact.

MV, you asked and I posed the FIM RULEBOOK which makes no statements about slowing down at a chequer did it.............. now MotoGP is governed by the rules in the FIM rulebook, not Wikipedia and so it is the FIM rules that apply is it not?

Reckless riding does not include failure to slow as you are claiming - now, let me ask you - find where it says that in the FIM rulebook for you cannot ........... reckless riding is an open ended term that is used to form a decision based on the opinion of learned people. They may decided that the speed was a component of the recklessness as if the rule was as you seemingly wish it to be then, each and every rider involved in a battle pack in a race would be so charged as they fail to slow after the chequer -- it is that very reason why no rule exists and why reckless, careless, negligent do.

On the last point I agree, the potential existed if they so chose to apply one of the other possible interpretation but it actually requires a few things to occur (believe or not), one of which is reports of the issue from flag marshall and other officials as you may be surprised by Race Direction generally are not watching TV coverage but cameras we do not get to see so their view is rather constrained. They actually also rarely watch the track until such time as an incident may occur (exception of course to the start/finish area) as they are watching monitors with other information that is pertinent to the running of the meeting.

In fact (well opinion) I suggest that at the time of the incident in 2011, most of RD would have been taking the headphones off to then start planning the next session

moto vudu · Oct 26, 2016

Gaz said:
Wikipedia .... you want to quote wikipedia as a source of fact.

MV, you asked and I posed the FIM RULEBOOK which makes no statements about slowing down at a chequer did it.............. now MotoGP is governed by the rules in the FIM rulebook, not Wikipedia and so it is the FIM rules that apply is it not?

Reckless riding does not include failure to slow as you are claiming - now, let me ask you - find where it says that in the FIM rulebook for you cannot ........... reckless riding is an open ended term that is used to form a decision based on the opinion of learned people. They may decided that the speed was a component of the recklessnes as if the rule was as you seemingly wish it to be then each and every rider involved in a battle pack in a race would be so charged as they fail to slow after the chequer -- it is that very reason why no rule exists and why reckless, careless, negligent do.

The rulebook would have to indicate a maximum speed for riders after the session has ended. They're attempting to leave it up to the riders to use common sense and decrease their speed enough to safely negotiate other riders after a session has ended. Not including "riders must slow down after a session has ended" isn't meant to be interpreted as "keep on racing as long as you want!" When a session is over... it's OVER. Again, failure to slow down is reckless riding and a rider can be penalized for it.

Why do you think we haven't seen riding continuing to race around track after sessions are over? I mean, it's not in the rulebook for them to slow down so why are they slowing??

Dr No · Oct 26, 2016

Gaz said:
Wikipedia .... you want to quote wikipedia as a source of fact.

MV, you asked and I posed the FIM RULEBOOK which makes no statements about slowing down at a chequer did it.............. now MotoGP is governed by the rules in the FIM rulebook, not Wikipedia and so it is the FIM rules that apply is it not?

Reckless riding does not include failure to slow as you are claiming - now, let me ask you - find where it says that in the FIM rulebook for you cannot ........... reckless riding is an open ended term that is used to form a decision based on the opinion of learned people. They may decided that the speed was a component of the recklessnes as if the rule was as you seemingly wish it to be then each and every rider involved in a battle pack in a race would be so charged as they fail to slow after the chequer -- it is that very reason why no rule exists and why reckless, careless, negligent do.

On the last point I agree, the potential existed if they so chose to apply one of the other possible interpretation but it actually requires a few things to occur (believe or not), one of which is reports of the issue from flag marshall and other officials as you may be surprised by Race Direction generally are not watching TV coverage but cameras we do not get to see so their view is rather constrained. They actually also rarely watch the track until such time as an incident may occur (exception of course to the start/finish area) as they are watching monitors with other information that is pertinent to the running of the meeting.

In fact (well opinion) I suggest that at the time of the incident in 2011, most of RD would have been taking the headphones off to then start planning the next session

If necessary, we can update Wikipedia to show that crossing the Chequer results in fire and brimstone falling from the sky and the stench of sulfur filling the air. As has been observed on several occasions where the requisite sacrifices to Ba'al have not been made by the Clerk of Course assisted by the Turn 2 flaggy.
Trooothiness.

moto vudu · Oct 26, 2016

From the rulebook

Riders must ride in a responsible manner which does not cause danger to other competitors or participants, either on the track or in the pit-lane. Any infringement of this rule will be penalized with one of the following
penalties: penalty points - change of position - ride through – time penalty – drop of any number of grid position at the rider’s next race – disqualification - withdrawal of Championship points - suspension.

Is is reasonable to assume that a hot lap after a session has ended is NOT considered responsible.

Dr No · Oct 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
The rulebook would have to indicate a maximum speed for riders after the session has ended. They're attempting to leave it up to the riders to use common sense and decrease their speed enough to safely negotiate other riders after a session has ended. Not including "riders must slow down after a session has ended" isn't mean to be interpreted as "keep on racing as long as you want!" When a session is over... it's OVER. Again, failure to slow down is reckless riding and a rider can be penalized for it.

Why do you think we haven't seen riding continuing to race around track after sessions are over? I mean, it's not in the rulebook for them to slow down so why are they slowing??

Because it's unlikely to get you a clean lap...and it's dangerous. Which is what MM was penalised for. Not some speed limit thing.
What are you actually arguing about?

moto vudu · Oct 26, 2016

Dr No said:
Because it's unlikely to get you a clean lap...and it's dangerous. Which is what MM was penalised for. Not some speed limit thing.
What are you actually arguing about?

So you admit that failure to slow down during the "cool down" lap is dangerous, but don't think that has anything to do with MM receiving a penalty?

Gaz · Oct 26, 2016

moto vudu said:
The rulebook would have to indicate a maximum speed for riders after the session has ended. They're attempting to leave it up to the riders to use common sense and decrease their speed enough to safely negotiate other riders after a session has ended. Not including "riders must slow down after a session has ended" isn't mean to be interpreted as "keep on racing as long as you want!" When a session is over... it's OVER. Again, failure to slow down is reckless riding and a rider can be penalized for it.

Why do you think we haven't seen riding continuing to race around track after sessions are over? I mean, it's not in the rulebook for them to slow down so why are they slowing??

Apologies as well, I edited the other post whilst you were quoting it.

You are correct (kind of) that by not including the comment it does not mean that riders should continue at top speed, but at the top level of sport and business it is well known that anything not sepcifically included is excluded and thus not bound by the rule, comment or contract - in short, it is a 'get out of jail' with a claim of ignorance (ie. no rule) which can then be covered by your favourite rule - rul 1.21 of the FIM Rule book, the real rules

2. Riders must ride in a responsible manner which does not cause danger to other competitors or participants, either on the track or in the pit-lane.
Any infringement of this rule will be penalised with one of the following

This, by the above rule Marquez can ride as hard as he wants provided it did not cause danger, which it did not until he came upon Willarott and impacted him. Thus the fact he had not slowed is not the issue, the fact he created a danger to Willarott is the issue and for which he got feathered.

Now, you can claim that to ride at top speed is irresponsible and I will counter by saying that it is situational awareness ....... if no riders are around then there is no harm but it is the awareness of the situation that Marquez lacked, which was (IMO) not due to the speed but due to him.

Again, the above rule is from the FIM rule book and can be found on page 44 (I have not yet found a definition of the various reckless etc as they may use dictionary definitions as some authorities will do)

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