Losail Tests

esco · Mar 14, 2011

michaelm said:
Rossi on the honda or yamaha would obviously be at or close to the front of the field , unless his shoulder injury is permanently debilitating; he was clearly still at the top of his game prior to the injury, having won 2 world championships quite well as I recall. I think the schadenfreude I felt which is diiminishing as I actually don't want rossi to do badly for a prolonged period of time, is due to him having deliberately placed himself in this position, as he easily could have stayed at yamaha or even gone to honda, and because of all the anti-stoner stuff, particularly the bike that rides itself stuff in 2007 and the attribution of his loses last year purely to riding error.

As kropotkin said rossi needs to "grok" the bike before he can ride it to its potential or fix it, and 2 things seem obvious, that it needs to be manhandled with which his shoulder problem doesn't help, and to be ridden fast the rider needs to take some risk that he will become familiar with the scenery, hence the predictions randy would do well which may be correct on evidence thus far. I suspect this is the antithesis to rossi's riding style in recent years, and certainly to the bikes he has developed. In the days before the tyre technology improved and before the modern electronics he rode cautiously early in races till the tyres warmed up, when he had the feel to push to the limit. I get the impression that a precise feel for the limits of the ducati is not something that anyone can achieve.

I actually don't think the 2009 ducati was too bad, but in the change to the big bang and whatever else they did to the 2010 bike to supposedly make the bike more tractable, which seemed to involve more rear grip at the expense of the front, they have made the bike unstable even with the electronics. A previous attempt to "improve" the bike's handling had a similar effect at the start of 2008. I don't think the recent bridgestone tyres have suited the ducati either.

As talpa says this is still only testing anyway, and even if he does struggle for a few races it will be a very minor blip in such a career.

I agree with you and i know old school is no quitter and will be up there after a few races.

I'm also noticing that Lorenzo is gonna have one hell of a time with Spies being this quick so early in the season. Spies even said that he wasn't even pushing at 100 percent.

The battle of the teammates for this season is gonna be crazy.

Talpa · Mar 14, 2011

michaelm said:
Rossi on the honda or yamaha would obviously be at or close to the front of the field , unless his shoulder injury is permanently debilitating; he was clearly still at the top of his game prior to the injury, having won 2 world championships quite well as I recall. I think the schadenfreude I felt which is diiminishing as I actually don't want rossi to do badly for a prolonged period of time, is due to him having deliberately placed himself in this position, as he easily could have stayed at yamaha or even gone to honda, and because of all the anti-stoner stuff, particularly the bike that rides itself stuff in 2007 and the attribution of his loses last year purely to riding error.

As kropotkin said rossi needs to "grok" the bike before he can ride it to its potential or fix it, and 2 things seem obvious, that it needs to be manhandled with which his shoulder problem doesn't help, and to be ridden fast the rider needs to take some risk that he will become familiar with the scenery, hence the predictions randy would do well which may be correct on evidence thus far. I suspect this is the antithesis to rossi's riding style in recent years, and certainly to the bikes he has developed. In the days before the tyre technology improved and before the modern electronics he rode cautiously early in races till the tyres warmed up, when he had the feel to push to the limit. I get the impression that a precise feel for the limits of the ducati is not something that anyone can achieve.

I actually don't think the 2009 ducati was too bad, but in the change to the big bang and whatever else they did to the 2010 bike to supposedly make the bike more tractable, which seemed to involve more rear grip at the expense of the front, they have made the bike unstable even with the electronics. A previous attempt to "improve" the bike's handling had a similar effect at the start of 2008. I don't think the recent bridgestone tyres have suited the ducati either.

As talpa says this is still only testing anyway, and even if he does struggle for a few races it will be a very minor blip in such a career.

After just reading Kropo's great summation of the test (check it out if you haven't-motomatters.com) its clear that the factory Honda's have shown their hand, the benchmark for race pace this weekend is consistent 1.56's. Whether or not the others haven't shown all yet remains to be seen.

Jorge's comments seem very flustered and a little perplexed, wind being one issue, whilst setup and Honda Speed being a significant other. As I've predicted before IMO Jorge is going to have a very tough season, especially after his teammate beats him a few times.....At present most attention is on Rossi, but even more significant is the reigning world champs pace-on the same bike as last year.

Rossi's comments are predictable, and their issues, whilst still large, are more easily explained by their lack of use of the soft tyre, and VR's lack of stamina on a bike which clearly hasn't really moved forward in the past 2 years-for whatever reason, and is now only making baby steps. Time to ask Enzo's boys for a hand again methinks Filipo......

All jokes aside they'll be there or thereabouts in a few rounds.

Dani is once again very fast and more impressive than any motogp pre-season previous, but I feel both the Honda big guns are quite precious when it comes to close racing and with Big Ben's current speed-if he can get in the mix with those two he will most certainly upset the party, which may leave the door open for JL and Rossi to catch up and join in.......

Mental Anarchist · Mar 14, 2011

Talpa said:
After just reading Kropo's great summation of the test (check it out if you haven't-motomatters.com) its clear that the factory Honda's have shown their hand, the benchmark for race pace this weekend is consistent 1.56's. Whether or not the others haven't shown all yet remains to be seen.

Jorge's comments seem very flustered and a little perplexed, wind being one issue, whilst setup and Honda Speed being a significant other. As I've predicted before IMO Jorge is going to have a very tough season, especially after his teammate beats him a few times.....At present most attention is on Rossi, but even more significant is the reigning world champs pace-on the same bike as last year.

Rossi's comments are predictable, and their issues, whilst still large, are more easily explained by their lack of use of the soft tyre, and VR's lack of stamina on a bike which clearly hasn't really moved forward in the past 2 years-for whatever reason, and is now only making baby steps. Time to ask Enzo's boys for a hand again methinks Filipo......

All jokes aside they'll be there or thereabouts in a few rounds.

Dani is once again very fast and more impressive than any motogp pre-season previous, but I feel both the Honda big guns are quite precious when it comes to close racing and with Big Ben's current speed-if he can get in the mix with those two he will most certainly upset the party, which may leave the door open for JL and Rossi to catch up and join in.......

Good post by you Talpa (had to keep scrolling up to check if it was you!). A couple of bits I disagree with are Honda's showing their hand as I think they both have something up their sleeve but they still wanted to dominate. I also don't agree that the "Honda big guns are quite precious when it comes to close racing". I think that the reality is that Stoner can and has diced for the lead, places and coming through the pack. As like all things Stoner related it is easy to label him based on a single incident that it is simply focused on despite significant evidence to the contrary. Pedrosa has done the same also.

I agree that VR will be there or there abouts in a few rounds. I just think to get there they need to risk inconsistency and that will be the biggest problem and one that will simply be a repeat of the last few seasons for Ducati.

michaelm · Mar 14, 2011

Mental Anarchist said:
Good post by you Talpa (had to keep scrolling up to check if it was you!). A couple of bits I disagree with are Honda's showing their hand as I think they both have something up their sleeve but they still wanted to dominate. I also don't agree that the "Honda big guns are quite precious when it comes to close racing". I think that the reality is that Stoner can and has diced for the lead, places and coming through the pack. As like all things Stoner related it is easy to label him based on a single incident that it is simply focused on despite significant evidence to the contrary. Pedrosa has done the same also.

I agree that VR will be there or there abouts in a few rounds. I just think to get there they need to risk inconsistency and that will be the biggest problem and one that will simply be a repeat of the last few seasons for Ducati.

I am hoping stoner has something in hand which he is keeping for the racing, and has just been doing enough to keep in front of dani and hence maintain precedence or at least equivalence in development input. Based on history I am not counting on it though, and dani actually has far more form for not showing his hand completely.

I am encouraged by the picture with the honda honcho though, in which not not only stoner but also the honda guy look delighted.

McKneZ · Mar 14, 2011

Rossi on a Honda would do the same IMO...maybe a little bit better, but surley he would not fight with Pedro/Stoner at testing... he has his own mysterious ways

And that is smart if you are optimistic and you get the resoults you wanned. Testing is for testing...not who is the fastest.

If you push in one sector for the 95% and on the others 80% you get Vale's times, and he knows where he really is. 0.3 sec per sector is very small difference.

I think lots of top guys doing that... i think that Lorenzo is also not that slow as it looks. And is just testing.

Its my opinion...didnt you ever think about that?

michaelm · Mar 14, 2011

McKneZ said:
Rossi on a Honda would do the same IMO...maybe a little bit better, but surley he would not fight with Pedro/Stoner at testing... he has his own mysterious ways

And that is smart if you are optimistic and you get the resoults you wanned. Testing is for testing...not who is the fastest.

If you push in one sector for the 95% and on the others 80% you get Vale's times, and he knows where he really is. 0.3 sec per sector is very small difference.

I think lots of top guys doing that... i think that Lorenzo is also not that slow as it looks. And is just testing.

Its my opinion...didnt you ever think about that?

Sure . Lorenzo also has been known not to show his hand early in practice, which is what this "test' amounts to, and to gain significant pace even between qualifying and the race as rossi has done so many times over his career.

The number of crashes by the ducati riders in general is a worry though.

BarryMachine · Mar 14, 2011

Is the Honda a screamer? if so well its obvious Rossi would not be good on it.

And its pretty obvious he would not be able to ride the Honda very good at all too, ie. We can assume he would be 2 seconds off Stoners pace on like bikes, ...... thats not a good time.

No I think Rossi is past the years of little or no competition, and having a proactive JB, and being up against some pretty mediocre competition. These new boys can outpace him blindfolded.

michaelm · Mar 15, 2011

BarryMachine said:
Is the Honda a screamer? if so well its obvious Rossi would not be good on it.

And its pretty obvious he would not be able to ride the Honda very good at all too, ie. We can assume he would be 2 seconds off Stoners pace on like bikes, ...... thats not a good time.

No I think Rossi is past the years of little or no competition, and having a proactive JB, and being up against some pretty mediocre competition. These new boys can outpace him blindfolded.

I have watched motogp bike racing for 25 years, you presumably have followed it even longer. It has always as far as I am aware been about the best rider seeking/being sought by the best team, and working mutually to improve the bike further. Rossi was almost certainly anointed by honda, but he well and truly outperformed alex criville on the full factory honda in 2000, a defending spanish world champion on a repsol bike for whom I doubt expense was being spared, to clinch his full factory ride. Your argument would similarly discredit mick doohan's world championships, all of which similarly involved jb on the spanners, and the quality of his opposition during his championship years anyway also mostly could be questioned, at least in comparison to mick.

I think some retribution for the slandering stoner has received over the years is understandable ( perhaps even justifiable

), but people are really going overboard, and stoner still is yet to win anything on the honda.

Talpa · Mar 15, 2011

McKneZ said:
Rossi on a Honda would do the same IMO...maybe a little bit better, but surley he would not fight with Pedro/Stoner at testing... he has his own mysterious ways

And that is smart if you are

optimistic and you get the resoults you

wanned. Testing is for testing...not who

is the fastest.

If you push in one sector for the 95% and on the others 80% you get Vale's

times, and he knows where he really is.

0.3 sec per sector is very small

difference

I think lots of top guys doing that... i think that Lorenzo is also not that slow

as it looks. And is just testing.

Its my opinion...didnt you ever think

about that?

it seems with jorges tone he may be giving Yamaha a large prod. Especially with the gradma bit!

Hopefully a couple of them are foxing. Vr could be certainly, Jorge is indeed quite cunning in this respect too.

Talpa · Mar 15, 2011

michaelm said:
I have watched motogp bike racing for 25 years, you presumably have followed it even longer. It has always as far as I am aware been about the best rider seeking/being sought by the best team, and working mutually to improve the bike further. Rossi was almost certainly anointed by honda, but he well and truly outperformed alex criville on the full factory honda in 2000, a defending spanish world champion on a repsol bike for whom I doubt expense was being spared, to clinch his full factory ride. Your argument would similarly discredit mick doohan's world championships, all of which similarly involved jb on the spanners, and the quality of his opposition during his championship years anyway also mostly could be questioned, at least in comparison to mick.

I think some retribution for the slandering stoner has received over the years is understandable ( perhaps even justifiable

), but people are really going overboard, and stoner still is yet to win anything on the honda.

well put mate, remember it is bak it in baz......

cliche guevara · Mar 15, 2011

JohnnyKnockdown said:
So they will be with you then??

Rossis always been fast at everything he's done. Its time to give him credit for the fastest un development job ever. He's taken them from mid pack to backmarker.

Its fair to say that he's having a Melandri moment. Maybe Melandri could have warned him about what he was getting into. After all their great buddies. Oh yeah I forgot. They were great buddies until Marco started to beat him.

that would be awesome,I'd be glad to hook haystack up.

i think its important to not have a double standard here : first its being argued that riders don't develop bikes but now that the duc obviously sucks its all rossis fault?

i think the gap between the duc and the hondas/yamahs hasn't increased significantly, they've just lost their best rider

i agree on the melandri part, i wonder how long it will take before he starts to have some sort of problems with simoncelli

by the way johnny, happy about what happens in japan?finally one of the evil axis powers suffers from what you've wished upon them

Gaz · Mar 15, 2011

A quote from Randy DePuniet after day 1.

Randy de Puniet, 10th, 1’57.143:

"Let’s say that this was not my luckiest day of testing. Because of two falls I lost almost two hours because both bikes were not useable. The first crash I expected because I was almost at the limit, while the second happened far too quickly, like as if I had put the wheels on oil. However the most important thing is that I am physically okay and that I was able to step back on track in the last part of the session and I managed to improve my fastest lap time. It will be very important to work well tomorrow to prepare the bike to race next Sunday."

Sound familiar?

Gaz

LittleEgg · Mar 15, 2011

BarryMachine said:
Is the Honda a screamer? if so well its obvious Rossi would not be good on it.

And its pretty obvious he would not be able to ride the Honda very good at all too, ie. We can assume he would be 2 seconds off Stoners pace on like bikes, ...... thats not a good time.

No I think Rossi is past the years of little or no competition, and having a proactive JB, and being up against some pretty mediocre competition. These new boys can outpace him blindfolded.

Yeah yeah, stoner is a practise session rider with a lack of nerve when it comes to race day...

IF by the end of this season he hasnt dropped the honda many times(which i for one highly doubt), and shows consistency then maybe he will have elevated his game to the top of the pack...but as of yet, no season has been any different other than 2007 when the nerves were understandably eased by the ability to leapfrog 2 riders on the straight.

As for your attempt to discredit "the other fellow"....well maybe a good expresso is in order.

If you were to complain about "lack of competition" you would have to discredit so many dominant figures in the world of sport, it would be, and frankly is...a joke.

Would it be fair to say that the current 4 stroke 800cc era isnt anything like it used to be in terms of pure rider ability? We are in an era of electronics after all.

Rossi competed with and dominated the best, in an era where bikes were a different animal.....animal being the main word here.

Although ironically of all the current dominant figures in motogp i would imagine stoner fairing quite well.

Of course a very bias post will garner a bias reply.

spooky · Mar 15, 2011

michaelm said:
I have watched motogp bike racing for 25 years, you presumably have followed it even longer. It has always as far as I am aware been about the best rider seeking/being sought by the best team, and working mutually to improve the bike further. Rossi was almost certainly anointed by honda, but he well and truly outperformed alex criville on the full factory honda in 2000, a defending spanish world champion on a repsol bike for whom I doubt expense was being spared, to clinch his full factory ride. Your argument would similarly discredit mick doohan's world championships, all of which similarly involved jb on the spanners, and the quality of his opposition during his championship years anyway also mostly could be questioned, at least in comparison to mick.

I think some retribution for the slandering stoner has received over the years is understandable ( perhaps even justifiable

), but people are really going overboard, and stoner still is yet to win anything on the honda.

Brilliant post, as always! i've only really been following moto-gp since 2004 so dont have the knowledge to base an opinion. Barrymachine hatred of Rossi does become tiring...

As for the test, well Honda are obviously looking pretty damn good. If Stoner and Pedrosa stay healthy its going to be an amazing battle! i think Jorge is holding something back because he fears his team mate, if Spies starts beating him i think he may spit the dummy out, like Rossi did. Vale will come good i'm sure, he knows what he's doing...

BarryMachine · Mar 15, 2011

Rob said:
Yeah yeah, stoner is a practise session rider with a lack of nerve when it comes to race day...

WOw imagine how he willgo if he ever gets the nerve then ........ remember he already has the most wins in the 800 era

"lack of nerve"

what does that say about the riders he has more wins than

Fruitcakes

Andy Roo · Mar 15, 2011

bla bla bla.

This should be on the pissed threat BUT

Me and the Norwegian blonde did a 20km paddle today I came back and read through all of this (after a few lagers) (my shoulder are killing me)

Casey was the fastest. We cannot reverse the results with wishes

(tampon) - this is because Rossi is better and Casey will fail; (Hey, how the .... is Rossi going riding Casey's bike )- looking like a right bleeding window licker.

I would like all of that "Ice cream doesn't grow bones in winter logic" to take a brief holiday until the season starts BECAUSE there are still optimists who believe that Rossi (sub tenth place and third fastest Poocati) is going to drag the virgin Mary out of Jeremy Burgess toolbox and anally .... her (instead of Uccio) and win the whole thing on the bike that Stoner was reasonably competitive on.

Surely all of languages of the world contain so may words, most of which are used for no good reason.

Look at the time sheet.

Look at the 800cc era results.

I have a box of Kleenex (tissues) I can airfreight to anyone who doesn't get parsimonious explanations.

Drunken Love

Goodnight

Andy

povol · Mar 15, 2011

Round and round we go. The talent level of different era's has been discussed in detail. The consensus, this is the most talented group of riders, in their prime, who have ever raced together in the history of the sport.It is what it is, you cant choose your competition.Doohan started his reign of terror as other legends of the sport faded, as did Rossi. They both enjoyed an extended time frame of very few challenges, racking up impressive win totals and championships in that time frame. There was an overwhelming odds on favorite to win championships in those times. Now, you would have to be a real gambler to put any sizable amount of money on any one rider to win the title.

BarryMachine · Mar 15, 2011

I'd agree with all of that ^^ Its looking like a great time in GP for sure, very likely the best year ever coming up. I find myself thinking I wonder what things will be like at round 6?

If I was to pick a dark Horse ..... Spies ......

Really we should all be expecting Lorenzo to be well up there ........ but its so salient ATM and the tests have been very closely followed and scrutinised.

Keshav · Mar 15, 2011

michaelm said:
I am hoping stoner has something in hand which he is keeping for the racing, and has just been doing enough to keep in front of dani and hence maintain precedence or at least equivalence in development input. Based on history I am not counting on it though, and dani actually has far more form for not showing his hand completely.

I am encouraged by the picture with the honda honcho though, in which not not only stoner but also the honda guy look delighted.

Even if Stoner has reached the limit of what he currently perceives it to be during this test -

he has a way of surpassing himself - repeatedly during the season. That's a great part of

the attraction. And as far as Pedrosa's concerned; he's still the run-away expert - whereas

Stoner will always re-pass and skirmish - a race winning style that Dani has yet to add

to his repertoire.

BarryMachine · Mar 15, 2011

Talpa said:
well put mate, remember it is bak it in baz......

Thanks, glad you acknowledge my skills

you have no idea do you

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