Le Mans Race

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ May 22 2009, 10:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well, I have had a few...... I'm sorry, don't persecute me please. I was also bought up in the Roman Catholic system, which I fortunately rejected many years ago.. when I learnt to think for myself..

Ssshhhh, you trying to start a war?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ May 23 2009, 03:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well, I have had a few...... I'm sorry, don't persecute me please. I was also bought up in the Roman Catholic system, which I fortunately rejected many years ago.. when I learnt to think for myself..
And don't use that sarcasm on me because I'm vulnerable.
I hurt, just like C3PO and Chewie.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ May 22 2009, 04:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>and one that rossi is oh so famous for. i've watched him do it to biaggi, sete, and anyone else for that matter - for years. he'll stop almost dead in a corner where he shouldn't, and make the rider behind run wide (or worse). the rossi fan boys will say it's "race craft", but for those of us who actually do race; will tell you it's pretty cheap to risk the fate of someone at 170 + mph.
Well you aint got 8 world championships so i know who id prefer to to tell me what is and what isn't race craft. And it aint some nobody club racer with his internet annominity.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 23 2009, 11:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well you aint got 8 world championships so i know who id prefer to to tell me what is and what isn't race craft.

This reasoning is commonly used and totally flawed. Alberto Puig has won more GP's than any of us but in his opinion the Estoril 06 accident was Haydens fault, an unpopular opinion. The point is that people in the sport are liable to be extremely subjective with their application of racing values.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 23 2009, 12:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This reasoning is commonly used and totally flawed. Alberto Puig has won more GP's than any of us but in his opinion the Estoril 06 accident was Haydens fault, an unpopular opinion. The point is that people in the sport are liable to be extremely subjective with their application of racing values.
Thats a bias opinion on one incident, Im sure puig for all his flaws understands race craft more than any of us but as far as im aware has not made any comments on rossi's race craft and alleged brake checking.

so djm. please elaborate with facts these biaggi gibbers cheap risky shots at over 170 mph ?

well just saw the race and must say that lorenzos performance was quite masterful. i was really pulling for melandri to somehow win the race but hey.... 2nd very friggin inpressive. what the hell was dovisioso thinkin?! damn just let pedrosa wittle down that sizeable & just sail around him. weak...

Melandri was dynamite!!!!It was a decent race but that sticks out.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ May 22 2009, 04:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>and one that rossi is oh so famous for. i've watched him do it to biaggi, sete, and anyone else for that matter - for years. he'll stop almost dead in a corner where he shouldn't, and make the rider behind run wide (or worse). the rossi fan boys will say it's "race craft", but for those of us who actually do race; will tell you it's pretty cheap to risk the fate of someone at 170 + mph.


Angel Nieto became famous for keeping his head tucked into the fairing but actually begin braking, or the reverse, lift his body out of the fairing but keep the throttle on--these tricks have been used for decades especially in the lower classes, and are old.

I watched the Laguna race several times. Rossi did not use any trick in that race, other than consistently trying to stay in front and denying Stoner the ideal lines. It's tough tactics, but fair. And do not forget that you have to be capable to get in front first , and return to the front every time you are passed

Stoner at Laguna in that corner missed his own braking point, period. He got confused for a moment, a split second and it was late. Rossi can do mistakes as well. If you are a real Stoner fan, do not look for excuses that he himself has not looked for, and doesn't need.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 21 2009, 01:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Do you think No contact was made between Rossi and Sete at Jerez 05? Rossi's move that day was considerably worse than Toni's Turkey 07 move and is an excellent example of the double standard that some people use.

Tom, you really really need to learn some more about race craft before you state your bastant missinformation. If you want to see what Sete should have done look no further than race 2 in Soth Afrika. Haga showed the world the only sensible and logical reply on a last corner attack he new would come. Elegant and crafty. Sure he could have tried to close the door but only by risking they both went out. Sete was in an excellent position to do the same thing. The number of races lost at that corner by going wide are countless and Sete could have added another if he had the skills and brain to do it. He showed the world he had neither.
Rossi did exactly what he shoud do and succeded, but only because of a very clumsy Sete.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ May 25 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Angel Nieto became famous for keeping his head tucked into the fairing but actually begin braking, or the reverse, lift his body out of the fairing but keep the throttle on--these tricks have been used for decades especially in the lower classes, and are old.

I watched the Laguna race several times. Rossi did not use any trick in that race, other than consistently trying to stay in front and denying Stoner the ideal lines. It's tough tactics, but fair. And do not forget that you have to be capable to get in front first , and return to the front every time you are passed

Stoner at Laguna in that corner missed his own braking point, period. He got confused for a moment, a split second and it was late. Rossi can do mistakes as well. If you are a real Stoner fan, do not look for excuses that he himself has not looked for, and doesn't need.
Stoner clearly said even at the time that putting the bike down at laguna was his error and I think making a fairly simple error was one of the reasons he was so pissed off. Many stoner fans including me argued the year previously that stoner was entitled to choose the line he did in the first corner although this arguably squeezed hopper and nicky into a collision, so I make no complaint about rossi proceeding through corners as he saw fit whilst in front on the track.

Stoner's main point at the time was that in the corkscrew incident and when he put the bike down it was in his control whether to run into rossi, and if he had done so both could equally have been justified as racing incidents. He seems to have re-thought things since then, and may have decided as some of us eventually did that rossi's options at the corkscrew were to re-enter as he did or run down into the fence, even if he did make some sort of error initially in his desperation to stay ahead at a crucial part of the track and time in the race.

As many have said including matt mladin (EDIT and you now and previously) the race by rossi overall was tactically brilliant and one he really shouldn't have been able to win, as it basically required blocking every line on every lap in the part of the track where stoner was faster. In similar circumstances this year it is possible stoner may decide to be a little more desperate himself, although to be in a position to be so will require him and the ducati to be faster than they have been in the last 3 races.

I think a showdown between Rossi and Stoner might get complicated this year. So many fast guys. I'd like nothing more than to see them square off again though and see what a year has done.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ May 25 2009, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tom, you really really need to learn some more about race craft before you state your bastant missinformation. If you want to see what Sete should have done look no further than race 2 in Soth Afrika. Haga showed the world the only sensible and logical reply on a last corner attack he new would come. Elegant and crafty. Sure he could have tried to close the door but only by risking they both went out. Sete was in an excellent position to do the same thing. The number of races lost at that corner by going wide are countless and Sete could have added another if he had the skills and brain to do it. He showed the world he had neither.
Rossi did exactly what he shoud do and succeded, but only because of a very clumsy Sete.

ha, you are right no rider in front of Rossi has any business taking the racing line, they should always ride around the outside of the track and wait for him to pass as easily as possible The only fault with Sete's defensive line into that turn was that he didn't expect Rossi to be prepared to risk them both having an accident to win the race. He was wrong.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ May 26 2009, 05:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think a showdown between Rossi and Stoner might get complicated this year. So many fast guys. I'd like nothing more than to see them square off again though and see what a year has done.
I think you are correct, lorenzo and pedrosa are not unlikely to interfere with a one on one stoner/rossi confrontation this year, complicating the tactical situation. My feeling is that if a full range of tyres were available even of the same bridgestone make that rossi and probably stoner would still be ahead of dani and jorge, but stoner has only seemed able to achieve a satisfactory set-up once and lorenzo now seems to have managed a better set-up than even rossi twice.

Stoner has been very tactical this year as shown by his point position standing. But by Laguna he will have to have started to push very hard for the front. Rossi has to do likewise especially considering the problems he has had. Laguna is so tight you could have 6 guys jousting for the front...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ May 22 2009, 05:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And don't use that sarcasm on me because I'm vulnerable.
I hurt, just like C3PO and Chewie.
YEah 3po has feeling! lol

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ May 25 2009, 11:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Angel Nieto became famous for keeping his head tucked into the fairing but actually begin braking, or the reverse, lift his body out of the fairing but keep the throttle on--these tricks have been used for decades especially in the lower classes, and are old.

I watched the Laguna race several times. Rossi did not use any trick in that race, other than consistently trying to stay in front and denying Stoner the ideal lines. It's tough tactics, but fair. And do not forget that you have to be capable to get in front first , and return to the front every time you are passed

Good post. There was a period in the mid to late eighties where it was no longer a compliment to view a rider as simply being smooth. The orthodox technique which went by the collective colloqialism as 'Hailwooding it' defined so deftly by trad riders such as Ago, Graham, Duke, Surtees and Mike himself where cornering blended into one continuous flow was of course superseded by the American powersliding revolutionaries who widened the radius in the latter half of the turn at the expense of an acute line early on. Although branded as untidy by its detractors at the time, the proponents of this technique were in reality super precise and economical in their riding style as well, but also employed the arsenal and resources of the former flat tracker.

Linked to this, a rider that used to infuriate me, as well as the plaudits pundits and fellow competitors, as I've pointed out befpre was Christian Sarron. In spite of being one of the latest brakers I have ever seen, when vying with other riders, I think this would intentionally be deployed as a method to upset the classic line, and made him as slow as the tail sliders at the apex. The advantage gained was purely a tactical one, but time and time again you would see him block the likes of Gardner, Mamola and even Lawson who needed to slingshot their bikes through the apex at precisely the moment the Gallic goon was there. To be fair to Sarron, he could not sustain the pace on often inferior machinery, and his 'old guard' techniques were often utilized to great effect, but to the mass condemnation of the paddock.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 23 2009, 10:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thats a bias opinion on one incident, Im sure puig for all his flaws understands race craft more than any of us but as far as im aware has not made any comments on rossi's race craft and alleged brake checking.

so djm. please elaborate with facts these biaggi gibbers cheap risky shots at over 170 mph ?


uh. whatever man. i call it like i see it. if you disagree, that's cool. just don't ever get out on a track with me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ May 26 2009, 06:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>uh. whatever man. i call it like i see it. if you disagree, that's cool. just don't ever get out on a track with me.
I didnt say i disagreed, i just asked for proof of the examples of which you stated. How can i agree or disagree without any facts at all. You said rossi did it to gibbers and biaggi at over 170 mph, i say show us !! Tell us which races ect ??

It's stupid to claim that Rossi does brake checking maneuvres at 170mph. Does anyone really think he would purposely put others AND himself in such a dangerous situation?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ May 25 2009, 06:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Angel Nieto became famous for keeping his head tucked into the fairing but actually begin braking, or the reverse, lift his body out of the fairing but keep the throttle on--these tricks have been used for decades especially in the lower classes, and are old.

I watched the Laguna race several times. Rossi did not use any trick in that race, other than consistently trying to stay in front and denying Stoner the ideal lines. It's tough tactics, but fair. And do not forget that you have to be capable to get in front first , and return to the front every time you are passed

Stoner at Laguna in that corner missed his own braking point, period. He got confused for a moment, a split second and it was late. Rossi can do mistakes as well. If you are a real Stoner fan, do not look for excuses that he himself has not looked for, and doesn't need.

i totally agree with what you've posted j4n0. but don't make this into a "rossi vs. stoner" thread.
i simply stated what i've witnessed over the years. and in my eyes, some of the tactics that rossi has used .... are questionable imho.

that's all. this isn't about who is a better rider, or whatever. it's an OPINION. and an opinion of others i've discussed this with. is it fair? sure. in the end, whoever wins. but trust me, those who put their life on the line will tell you it's questionable.