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I think he will win 8 titles at least. The only record I'm not sure if he will break is Rossi's premier class wins record given most of Rossi's wins were earned when there was nowhere near as much parity across manufacturers and the rules.
 
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I think he will win 8 titles at least. The only record I'm not sure if he will break is Rossi's premier class wins record given most of Rossi's wins were earned when there was nowhere near as much parity across manufacturers and the rules.

Or the rider competition.
 
Or the rider competition.

Good point however Marquez is so ....... good that I truly believe if given the same advantages he would have similar or better dominance over the vastly superior competition than Rossi did with Doohans leftovers.
 
Perhaps Marquez will attain Doohanesque dominance. For that he will have to stop crashing so much. Might happen.

The old fast....but not too fast. He may be able to get to the point of knowing where and when that is. He is certainly practicing that quite a bit these days.

The best ones don't crash much.
 
I think he will win 8 titles at least. The only record I'm not sure if he will break is Rossi's premier class wins record given most of Rossi's wins were earned when there was nowhere near as much parity across manufacturers and the rules.

in my opinion statistics in motogp are ......... Its the bottom least of human logical capabilities to compare who is better rider. Every season is irrelevant.

One way to figure out who is better rider is to race at the same track, same time.

Example: prior to 2007, Valentino Rossi had 7 wins in Phillip Island, including 5 wins in a row (2000-2005, golden era huh?).
does this made him the better rider than Casey Stoner with just 6 wins in his career? Not a chance.
its enough for me to put Casey Stoner as better rider when he win the 2009 Phillip Island, he doesn't need to win another GP to convince me.

I think by beating (considered) the best, he's already being the best. doesn't need to win 17 more titles to proof so.
 
My personal opinion is there is no man alive past or present that could ride the 07 -10 Ducati any better than Casey Stoner, and there is no rider that could ride the 16/17 Honda better than Marquez. Then again I would say no rider could ride the 92 - 99 Honda better than Doohan, the 89 - 91 Yamaha better than Rainey. I'm sure you all know where this is going. Oh .... I left out Rossi and Uccio. Oh well.

And there is no rider that could ride the Aprilia cube
 
Marquez doesn't have the longevity factor, plus, there's a new marketing paradigm shift waiting for Rossi to retire.

Rossi has had it easy street adding years to his racing with the effect of artificially inflating his record. I doubt Marc can burn long enough. Not only has Rossi competed with hardware advantages like tires and top tier factory bikes, etc, but most importantly, the willingness of the organizers to move heaven and earth in his favor (too long to list here). Not to mention the psychological effect of being the undisputed hero in this long running narrative.

I remember reading an article over 10 years ago by Michael Scott considering MotoGP life after Rossi. This was when Ferrari were looking at Rossi, at the time it seemed the natural course, and natural curve to the end of a career. Yet here we are a decade plus later. Why? ANSWER: Because Dorna learned selling the modern narrative: Rossi vs Evil Pawns makes for a very profitable marketing template, Rossi stayed on with the promise of being Dorna's perennial hero in this made-for-TV drama. It's been very successful for Dorna. However there is an underbelly to thid marketing scheme that requires villains to be sacrificed, who cares these are real humans, dumb .......s. All great Hollywood movies need villains for the hero to slay.

VR will likely ride in 2019, maybe even 2020. VR gets to write his own ticket, the power structure is something of a symbiotic relationship, he stays, Dorna get rich, win win. In the same way Yamaha were beholden to Rossi after the Debacle of 2015, despite clearly being in the wrong, nobody could at that point challenge VR's status. How powerful is Rossi's brand? For perspective, Yamaha had to have understood and was willing to sacrifice the best opportunity for a repeat championship in order to appease the monster. Yamaha were lucky to get Viñalez, though if Suzuki had any commitment to contend no way they let their contractual option to keep him lapse. To be fair, Rossi's brand will provide Yamaha value for years to come. In fact, Dorna have already declared holding indefinitely a grid slot for Team VR46.

The years of marketing Yellow vs Evil has created a robust Cult that isn't going away for many years. These minions can be easily and cheaply retained, waving their yellow flags for Team VR46 vs the World.

Even Dorna learned they had created a monster when they were accused of being part of the Spanish mafia that conspired to thwart Rossi's 2015 title. If you're curious, I'm sure you can find a video of a flustered Carmelo Ezpeleta trying desperately to distance himself from the wrath of accusations from the Valiban. It's why he put lipstick on a pig and made the old Race Direction the scapegoat; instituting a supposedly "new" Race Direction. Carmelo claimed the new and improved Race Direction was not associated with Dorna, therefore, in a slide-of-hand, any unpopular decisions by this "new" Race Direction wouldn't be a liability to Dorna's standing in the eyes of the powerful and profitable Valiban. Because Dog forbid their value be diminished from petitioners seeking to take out their rage by witholding ratings.

Dorna are clearly planing for the future, the one king vs pawns marketing model is drawing to a close and now they're turning to a 'multiple contenders' model. Once Rossi retires, Dorna will implement performance leveling like it's Nascar, effectively deploying "competition yellow flags". Dorna has been actively pushing to get that 10th title, in doing so it's extended artificially the use-by-date of Valentino. The value of keeping viewers tuned in is still paying off. However, it was reported that Dorna considered it a major problem for the 2016 title to be wrapped up so early. Contrast this to the years Rossi wrapped up the title early, no adverse reaction in sight.

Marquez will compete in an era where performance leveling will be the norm. He will be chasing an inflated record from a bygone era. Marc will certainly win a few more championships, but I doubt the days where one rider dominated the season will continue.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
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Marquez doesn't have the longevity factor,

Based on what???

He's already outperformed Rossi in every way in his first seasons. Moreover, he's in better shape than Rossi was at his age because he started training seriously while still young. Moreover, MM is way more focused on racing and is not prone to getting wrapped up in all the self-promo ...... The kid is a machine. Barring injury, he will easily surpass Rossi's records.
 
Marquez doesn't have the longevity factor, plus, there's a new marketing paradigm shift waiting for Rossi to retire.

Rossi has had it easy street adding years to his racing with the effect of artificially inflating his record. I doubt Marc can burn long enough. Not only has Rossi competed with hardware advantages like tires and top tier factory bikes, etc, but most importantly, the willingness of the organizers to move heaven and earth in his favor (too long to list here). Not to mention the psychological effect of being the undisputed hero in this long running narrative.

I remember reading an article over 10 years ago by Michael Scott considering MotoGP life after Rossi. This was when Ferrari were looking at Rossi, at the time it seemed the natural course, and natural curve to the end of a career. Yet here we are a decade plus later. Why? ANSWER: Because Dorna learned selling the modern narrative: Rossi vs Evil Pawns makes for a very profitable marketing template, Rossi stayed on with the promise of being Dorna's perennial hero in this made-for-TV drama. It's been very successful for Dorna. However there is an underbelly to thid marketing scheme that requires villains to be sacrificed, who cares these are real humans, dumb .......s. All great Hollywood movies need villains for the hero to slay.

VR will likely ride in 2019, maybe even 2020. VR gets to write his own ticket, the power structure is something of a symbiotic relationship, he stays, Dorna get rich, win win. In the same way Yamaha were beholden to Rossi after the Debacle of 2015, despite clearly being in the wrong, nobody could at that point challenge VR's status. How powerful is Rossi's brand? For perspective, Yamaha had to have understood and was willing to sacrifice the best opportunity for a repeat championship in order to appease the monster. Yamaha were lucky to get Viñalez, though if Suzuki had any commitment to contend no way they let their contractual option to keep him lapse. To be fair, Rossi's brand will provide Yamaha value for years to come. In fact, Dorna have already declared holding indefinitely a grid slot for Team VR46.

The years of marketing Yellow vs Evil has created a robust Cult that isn't going away for many years. These minions can be easily and cheaply retained, waving their yellow flags for Team VR46 vs the World.

Even Dorna learned they had created a monster when they were accused of being part of the Spanish mafia that conspired to thwart Rossi's 2015 title. If you're curious, I'm sure you can find a video of a flustered Carmelo Ezpeleta trying desperately to distance himself from the wrath of accusations from the Valiban. It's why he put lipstick on a pig and made the old Race Direction the scapegoat; instituting a supposedly "new" Race Direction. Carmelo claimed the new and improved Race Direction was not associated with Dorna, therefore, in a slide-of-hand, any unpopular decisions by this "new" Race Direction wouldn't be a liability to Dorna's standing in the eyes of the powerful and profitable Valiban. Because Dog forbid their value be diminished from petitioners seeking to take out their rage by witholding ratings.

Dorna are clearly planing for the future, the one king vs pawns marketing model is drawing to a close and now they're turning to a 'multiple contenders' model. Once Rossi retires, Dorna will implement performance leveling like it's Nascar, effectively deploying "competition yellow flags". Dorna has been actively pushing to get that 10th title, in doing so it's extended artificially the use-by-date of Valentino. The value of keeping viewers tuned in is still paying off. However, it was reported that Dorna considered it a major problem for the 2016 title to be wrapped up so early. Contrast this to the years Rossi wrapped up the title early, no adverse reaction in sight.

Marquez will compete in an era where performance leveling will be the norm. He will be chasing an inflated record from a bygone era. Marc will certainly win a few more championships, but I doubt the days where one rider dominated the season will continue.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Sorry Jum, take off the glasses, you've been blinded by all of the conspiracies you subscribe to.

:fishing1::fishing1::fishing1:

While I agree with some of them, I do not agree with all of them. The spec ECU and attempt at leveling the field with a near control tire situation worked up until this year when the major factories started putting distance between themselves and the rest of the field. HRC is starting to put distance between themselves and Yamaha and Ducati now as they always do eventually because they outspend everyone into oblivion to refine the package.

Motorcycle racing is vastly different from NASCAR and every other automotive spec series in that rider ability makes a far greater impact on results than any of those series do. Not to minimize talent levels in those series, but the old 80-20 thing isn't entirely an inaccurate assessment hence why we see certain riders capable of doing well no matter the machine, and others only capable of doing well when the machine has certain characteristics capable of bringing out the rider's natural abilities; Lorenzo and front end stability.

Saying Marquez doesn't have longevity is laughable and I'm actually shocked that you of all people would even say or subscribe to such silliness.

I follow a lot of what MM does off-track, and he has probably the best foundation and support network of any rider on the grid. It's why no matter Dorna's machinations, and Rossi's ........, he has remained even-keeled as any of the best riders in history. In fact he may be the most even-keeled rider to ever grace grand prix motorcycle racing. The family support he has, do not underestimate what that is doing for him. No other rider seems to have this kind of network. It isolates him from the endless ........ every other rider (Stoner in particular) succumbed to over the years. He has a focus on improving every single day from fitness, to outright ability. Watching him riding dirt tracks is a spectacle. I think he would be outright competitive in SX/MX if he cared to try his hand at it. One of the biggest things with MM that he is willing to do, that no other rider will do is he is will push to 11/10ths and crash. Yes that may eventually bite him in the ... one of these days, but when you do that, you know where the actual limit is instead of wondering, "Am I at the limit, or is there more?" He knows exactly where the limit is.

I suspect Dorna is going to switch support to him because at the end of the day, for better or worse, they are capitalists, and they are in this to make money. When Rossi retires, it is easier to promote MM even if not everyone is willing to accept him as the face of the sport. There are no other options, and if he finishes 2017 with 4/6 career titles, he only has 3 to go till he ties Vale's 9 titles. Injury is IMO the only thing that is going to stop it. MM's real goal is to get to 10 titles and to break every single record Rossi currently owns. Time will tell if this is successful. There is no one in any of the lower classes that has the talent to run with him consistently. He plays on a different level. You can beat him obviously on any given race weekend, but over the course of 18-20 races? He has to beat himself to open the door for any other challenger.
 
Sorry Jum, take off the glasses, you've been blinded by all of the conspiracies you subscribe to.

:fishing1::fishing1::fishing1:

While I agree with some of them, I do not agree with all of them. The spec ECU and attempt at leveling the field with a near control tire situation worked up until this year when the major factories started putting distance between themselves and the rest of the field. HRC is starting to put distance between themselves and Yamaha and Ducati now as they always do eventually because they outspend everyone into oblivion to refine the package.

Motorcycle racing is vastly different from NASCAR and every other automotive spec series in that rider ability makes a far greater impact on results than any of those series do. Not to minimize talent levels in those series, but the old 80-20 thing isn't entirely an inaccurate assessment hence why we see certain riders capable of doing well no matter the machine, and others only capable of doing well when the machine has certain characteristics capable of bringing out the rider's natural abilities; Lorenzo and front end stability.

Saying Marquez doesn't have longevity is laughable and I'm actually shocked that you of all people would even say or subscribe to such silliness.

I follow a lot of what MM does off-track, and he has probably the best foundation and support network of any rider on the grid. It's why no matter Dorna's machinations, and Rossi's ........, he has remained even-keeled as any of the best riders in history. In fact he may be the most even-keeled rider to ever grace grand prix motorcycle racing. The family support he has, do not underestimate what that is doing for him. No other rider seems to have this kind of network. It isolates him from the endless ........ every other rider (Stoner in particular) succumbed to over the years. He has a focus on improving every single day from fitness, to outright ability. Watching him riding dirt tracks is a spectacle. I think he would be outright competitive in SX/MX if he cared to try his hand at it. One of the biggest things with MM that he is willing to do, that no other rider will do is he is will push to 11/10ths and crash. Yes that may eventually bite him in the ... one of these days, but when you do that, you know where the actual limit is instead of wondering, "Am I at the limit, or is there more?" He knows exactly where the limit is.

I suspect Dorna is going to switch support to him because at the end of the day, for better or worse, they are capitalists, and they are in this to make money. When Rossi retires, it is easier to promote MM even if not everyone is willing to accept him as the face of the sport. There are no other options, and if he finishes 2017 with 4/6 career titles, he only has 3 to go till he ties Vale's 9 titles. Injury is IMO the only thing that is going to stop it. MM's real goal is to get to 10 titles and to break every single record Rossi currently owns. Time will tell if this is successful. There is no one in any of the lower classes that has the talent to run with him consistently. He plays on a different level. You can beat him obviously on any given race weekend, but over the course of 18-20 races? He has to beat himself to open the door for any other challenger.
I agree. What Rossi has actually done is make someone already ferociously motivated even more motivated, and in particular even more motivated than he already probably was to surpass Rossi.

He can always get injured, but his crashes these days don't seem to be the the massive ones he had earlier in his career, such that Lorenzo and Dani didn't think he could possibly last the 2013 season. Jorge had a similar first premier class season in terms of crashing. What is certain is that if he didn't flinch when he encountered the malestrom at the end of 2015 he is hardly likely to fail on account of dismay, as Stoner pretty much eventually did.

I agree HRC are already outspending/outresearching Dorna's equalisation attempts, which also probably only serve to motivate them ultimately.
 
I agree. What Rossi has actually done is make someone already ferociously motivated even more motivated, and in particular even more motivated than he already probably was to surpass Rossi.

He can always get injured, but his crashes these days don't seem to be the the massive ones he had earlier in his career, such that Lorenzo and Dani didn't think he could possibly last the 2013 season. Jorge had a similar first premier class season in terms of crashing. What is certain is that if he didn't flinch when he encountered the malestrom at the end of 2015 he is hardly likely to fail on account of dismay, as Stoner pretty much eventually did.

I agree HRC are already outspending/outresearching Dorna's equalisation attempts, which also probably only serve to motivate them ultimately.

Yes. Marquez' motivation is really something to behold - and VR only stoked the fire with the 2015 shenanigans.
 
I agree. What Rossi has actually done is make someone already ferociously motivated even more motivated, and in particular even more motivated than he already probably was to surpass Rossi.

He can always get injured, but his crashes these days don't seem to be the the massive ones he had earlier in his career, such that Lorenzo and Dani didn't think he could possibly last the 2013 season. Jorge had a similar first premier class season in terms of crashing. What is certain is that if he didn't flinch when he encountered the malestrom at the end of 2015 he is hardly likely to fail on account of dismay, as Stoner pretty much eventually did.

I agree HRC are already outspending/outresearching Dorna's equalisation attempts, which also probably only serve to motivate them ultimately.


Not to indulge overmuch in "cod psychology" but perception is that MM is much less emotionally labile than Stoner. He doesn't seem much affected by Rossi's head games, and doesn't seem prone to all the narcissistic crap that we see in so many riders. The kid just wants to race. I think it's a case of having the right genes. The kid is a shark.

Stoner's family traveled with him everywhere. But for all their love and support, they could not shield him from the part of his psyche that makes him a bit more human than a lot of racers. His capacity to be sensitive to the nuances of the throttle - was doubtless a big contributing factor to his decision to quit the sport. MM may outstrip him in terms of trophies won, but Stoner's humanness - will, for me make him more appealing as a champion. I could see having a beer with him. Marquez, not so much.
 
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Agree with everything JPS said. I think it's a natural despite the Valebans hatred towards him that Marquez will be the face of the GP. Fans memories aren't that long and he is a PR persons wet dream, aggressive, almost unfairly talented, grounded with his family, not fake and maybe this doesn't mean anything but my nan who's not a fan of the GP in general loves him because of his smile, the way he's always happy and laughingand the way he consistently makes you sit on the edge of your seat

I said before the start of the year once it looked like Honda was gonna struggle at least at the start of the season that if Vinales couldn't beat Marquez this year he likely will not be able to. There is great talent coming through Mir is doing great in moto3 but at his age Marquez was about to clinch the MotoGP title for the first time. Morbidelli who looks the goods in moto2 is going to turn 23 at the end of the year, by that age Marquez had won his 3rd GP title. Vinales or Lorenzo(assuming he continues to progress on the Duc)may beat him one year but Marquez has the Xfactor in every championship thanks to his brilliance in mixed conditions which normally ends with him gaining huge points on the two guys we expect to challenge him in the future.

Vinales isn't Lorenzo 2.0 like some were hoping, he's slightly better in mixed conditions, he worse in full wet conditions, he doesn't have Lorenzos ability going into the first corner to pull away and as this weekend(and others) showed he doesn't have Lorenzos ability to perform great overtakes.

Edit to add: this year might not be totally Vinales' fault given Yamaha and Michelin caving to Rossi's demands. Maybe I'm being rough on him about this year.
 
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Not to indulge overmuch in "cod psychology" but perception is that MM is much less emotionally labile than Stoner. He doesn't seem much affected by Rossi's head games, and doesn't seem prone to all the narcissistic crap that we see in so many riders. The kid just wants to race. I think it's a case of having the right genes. The kid is a shark.

Stoner's family traveled with him everywhere. But for all their love and support, they could not shield him from the part of his psyche that makes him a bit more human than a lot of racers. His capacity to be sensitive to the nuances of the throttle - was doubtless a big contributing factor to his decision to quit the sport. MM may outstrip him in terms of trophies won, but Stoner's humanness - will, for me make him more appealing as a champion. I could see having a beer with him. Marquez, not so much.

I think that's clear as day. Stoner was a very shy introvert who struggled with the circus that is MotoGP. He despised everything off the track.

Lucky for him, then, he had so much talent on it.
 
Agree with everything JPS said. I think it's a natural despite the Valebans hatred towards him that Marquez will be the face of the GP. Fans memories aren't that long and he is a PR persons wet dream, aggressive, almost unfairly talented, grounded with his family, not fake and maybe this doesn't mean anything but my nan who's not a fan of the GP in general loves him because of his smile, the way he's always happy and laughingand the way he consistently makes you sit on the edge of your seat

I said before the start of the year once it looked like Honda was gonna struggle at least at the start of the season that if Vinales couldn't beat Marquez this year he likely will not be able to. There is great talent coming through Mir is doing great in moto3 but at his age Marquez was about to clinch the MotoGP title for the first time. Morbidelli who looks the goods in moto2 is going to turn 23 at the end of the year, by that age Marquez had won his 3rd GP title. Vinales or Lorenzo(assuming he continues to progress on the Duc)may beat him one year but Marquez has the Xfactor in every championship thanks to his brilliance in mixed conditions which normally ends with him gaining huge points on the two guys we expect to challenge him in the future.

Vinales isn't Lorenzo 2.0 like some were hoping, he's slightly better in mixed conditions, he worse in full wet conditions, he doesn't have Lorenzos ability going into the first corner to pull away and as this weekend(and others) showed he doesn't have Lorenzos ability to perform great overtakes.

Edit to add: this year might not be totally Vinales' fault given Yamaha and Michelin caving to Rossi's demands. Maybe I'm being rough on him about this year.

With Galbusera, Rossi generally outdid Lorenzo. On the other hand, Vinales has been clearly better than Rossi this year. I think Mav is better than Lorenzo.
 
I think 'barring injury' is the issue.

He can't keep crashing like he does and have a long career.
Pay attention to his crashes. They are not dangerous like his previous get offs. Most are very gentle lowsides. Hell, the guy is already lying on the ground when he loses the front, so really it's just a matter of sliding without the bike instead of with the bike under one leg.

As pointed out here, before, MM tests the limits every weekend. And virtually all his crashes now come before the race. The guy is quite amazing. Remember how often Stoner crashed, but did not get hurt until Indy. I think MM can go like this for at least a decade.

It's a new race game. Even Moto2 guys are getting elbows down.
 
Saying Marquez doesn't have LONGEVITY is laughable and I'm actually shocked that you of all people would even say or subscribe to such silliness.

Would you prefer I say he has longevity with caveats?


He will push to 11/10ths and crash. Yes that may eventually bite him in the ... one of these days...
---------
Injury is IMO the only thing that is going to stop it.
--------
Time will tell if this is successful.
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He has to beat himself to open the door for any other challenger.

We both agree Marc is great in many respects and can eclipse several current records, by your own admission, there is a caveat to his longevity, it's not certain. What's laughable about that then?

Interesting point about Dorna, I suppose Carmelo could just as easily revert to Marc king building. It sells.

There's a pattern here.



He can always get injured... .


I think 'barring injury' is the issue.

He can't keep crashing like he does and have a long career.


For that he will have to stop crashing so much. Might happen.

The best ones don't crash much.


Pay attention to his crashes.

And virtually all his crashes now come before the race .

Caveat: if he can avoid shortening his 'longevity' he will have 'longevity.'

I agree.






If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
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Watching Marc ride now is nothing like Rossi in his SNS heyday. Marc puts way more on the line every race. It will be very difficult for him to eclipse VR or make it to 10 riding the way he does and with the competition he faces. No forgone conclusion imo peeps forget he will face younger stronger riders. I didn't think I'd see another rider challenge Stoners speed for years and yet here Marquez is. I doubt boppers and therefore Dorna will ever support him they will both migrate to whoever team VR anoints successor to the emperor.
 

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