Gran Premio Movistar de Aragón 2017

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Jumkie said:
There's a thread here where it was discussed in more detail. Don't quote me, because my memory is fuzzy on it, but I think a journalist suggested on social media that it was either Alzamora or Santi.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
Click to expand...

I don't think there was any smoking gun then, and there certainly won't be one to find now; Alzamora or whomever is certainly not going to say for attribution that they vetoed Stoner.

What happened as I recall is that Pedrosa was injured (actually may have been to take the pin out of his previously fractured clavicle which was pressing on an artery and causing circulation problems) and needed to be replaced, for 2 races as I recall, and Stoner made public statements that he was keen to ride in his place, but HRC having previously iirc spoken of wildcards for Stoner all of a sudden weren't keen on the idea. This was at a time that MM after being completely untouchable in 2014 was having problems in early season 2015 and throwing his bike down the road/crashing out repetitively. It was never disclosed why HRC was cold on the idea of Stoner replacing MM, but the not imo unreasonable speculation was that it was from MM's camp/Alzamora in particular. Of course HRC themselves may just have been unkeen to put any extra pressure on their once and future king at a time of difficulty to please Stoner who had retired on them, exactly because MM would have seen Stoner as a challenge and would obviously have taken that challenge up..
 
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RCV600RR said:
I was referring to championship standings - Rossi beat JL in 2014 and 2016, but JL beat him in 2015.

Also, since Galbusera, Rossi accrued many more points than JL.


Fair point.
Click to expand...

You have to look at more than just the championship standings for a better picture. Realistically that Rossi beat JLo in 2014 is totally meaningless given just how far both of them finished from Marquez. JLo still won the same amount races and if not for a few uncharacteristic mistakes(crash while in the lead + jumping the start etc) would've likely beaten Rossi over the season and stopped Marquez's 10 race run. They both finished 60+ points down on Marquez despite Marquez crashing in 3 of the last 6 races.

JLo finished only 16 points down on Rossi in 2016 despite his well publicised problem with Michelin once they removed his favoured front tyre. He finished 16 points down despite a total tyre failure out of his control in Brno that resulted in him having no chance to take big points despite at the time of having to pull in having the fastest lap of the race.
 
Dont forget that in 2016 Yamaha neutred Lorenzos bike once they found out he was going to Ducati because he was ashamed of working with rossi after the rossi kicking Marquez thing.
 
p4p1 said:
You have to look at more than just the championship standings for a better picture. Realistically that Rossi beat JLo in 2014 is totally meaningless given just how far both of them finished from Marquez.
Click to expand...
It's not meaningless at all. Two riders, on the same bike. One beat the other. That they both were beaten by a superior Marquez is irrelevant.

p4p1 said:
JLo still won the same amount races and if not for a few uncharacteristic mistakes(crash while in the lead + jumping the start etc) would've likely beaten Rossi over the season and stopped Marquez's 10 race run.
Click to expand...
And if my Aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. A key job of a rider is not to feel the limit and not exceed it. You can't go into parc ferme and tell your rival "I don't consider your podium finish a meaningful defeat because I would've beaten you if I didn't crash out".

p4p1 said:
JLo finished only 16 points down on Rossi in 2016 despite his well publicised problem with Michelin once they removed his favoured front tyre. He finished 16 points down despite a total tyre failure out of his control in Brno that resulted in him having no chance to take big points despite at the time of having to pull in having the fastest lap of the race.
Click to expand...
You can't willfully omit information which is unfavourable to your argument mate (e.g. Rossi's engine failure at Mugello).
 
michaelm said:
I don't think there was any smoking gun then, and there certainly won't be one to find now; Alzamora or whomever is certainly not going to say for attribution that they vetoed Stoner.

What happened as I recall is that Pedrosa was injured (actually may have been to take the pin out of his previously fractured clavicle which was pressing on an artery and causing circulation problems) and needed to be replaced, for 2 races as I recall, and Stoner made public statements that he was keen to ride in his place, but HRC having previously iirc spoken of wildcards for Stoner all of a sudden weren't keen on the idea. This was at a time that MM after being completely untouchable in 2014 was having problems in early season 2015 and throwing his bike down the road/crashing out repetitively. It was never disclosed why HRC was cold on the idea of Stoner replacing MM, but the not imo unreasonable speculation was that it was from MM's camp/Alzamora in particular. Of course HRC themselves may just have been unkeen to put any extra pressure on their once and future king at a time of difficulty to please Stoner who had retired on them, exactly because MM would have seen Stoner as a challenge and would obviously have taken that challenge up..
Click to expand...

I recall Stoner saying someone from Marquez' camp opposed it. Let me dig it up.

EDIT: http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/225999/1/stoner-marquez-felt-threatened
 
I think there is tension between Stoner and Marquez.

I recall Marquez said: "the Japanese test rider developed the bike. Stoner, when he participated in the test, tried the bike, but it's obvious that he can't develop anything after jumping on the bike after a year off".

In Spanish: "Un poco sí íbamos probando chasis y quizá el problema que teníamos, y que según nuestro equipo es el carácter del motor, allí quedaba disimulado, por las condiciones tan altas que había de temperatura, ya que cuando hace tanto calor la moto corre menos. Por lo que respecta a la evolución de la moto, al final la ha hecho el piloto de pruebas japonés. Stoner, cuando hizo el test probó la moto, pero está claro que después de un año sin ir en moto, no puede desarrollar nada."
 
RCV600RR said:
It's not meaningless at all. Two riders, on the same bike. One beat the other. That they both were beaten by a superior Marquez is irrelevant.


And if my Aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. A key job of a rider is not to feel the limit and not exceed it. You can't go into parc ferme and tell your rival "I don't consider your podium finish a meaningful defeat because I would've beaten you if I didn't crash out".


You can't willfully omit information which is unfavourable to your argument mate (e.g. Rossi's engine failure at Mugello).
Click to expand...
Lorenzo had more wins 12 to 8 and more importantly a championship in that time frame. You think he would trade those stats for Rossi's second place finishes. Lorenzo was the faster rider and consistently was considered the contender from the Yamaha camp. Rossi was then and is today a point racer trying to back into a championship.
 
RCV600RR said:
I think there is tension between Stoner and Marquez.

I recall Marquez said: "the Japanese test rider developed the bike. Stoner, when he participated in the test, tried the bike, but it's obvious that he can't develop anything after jumping on the bike after a year off".

In Spanish: "Un poco sí íbamos probando chasis y quizá el problema que teníamos, y que según nuestro equipo es el carácter del motor, allí quedaba disimulado, por las condiciones tan altas que había de temperatura, ya que cuando hace tanto calor la moto corre menos. Por lo que respecta a la evolución de la moto, al final la ha hecho el piloto de pruebas japonés. Stoner, cuando hizo el test probó la moto, pero está claro que después de un año sin ir en moto, no puede desarrollar nada."
Click to expand...

I still believe that was taken out of context for a little bit a media beat up as usual. What Marquez said was that Stoner was fast when he tested and identified the problem straight away but he can't develop a bike only riding it once. I took it to mean that Marquez said that despite Stoner identifying exactly what the Hondas problem was when he only rides the bike once a year he can't develop the bike to get rid of the problem. But I'm not one to try and make up tension when there is none.
 
RCV600RR said:
It's not meaningless at all. Two riders, on the same bike. One beat the other. That they both were beaten by a superior Marquez is irrelevant.


And if my Aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. A key job of a rider is not to feel the limit and not exceed it. You can't go into parc ferme and tell your rival "I don't consider your podium finish a meaningful defeat because I would've beaten you if I didn't crash out".


You can't willfully omit information which is unfavourable to your argument mate (e.g. Rossi's engine failure at Mugello).
Click to expand...

So you have nothing to say about Lorenzos favoured tyre for the second time in two years strangely being taken away after he had dominated on them?
What about Lorenzos development input?
How important was that?
Where is the bike right now without it?
Where's Rossi without Lorenzos development now he's left to develop on his own without special tyres?
Why do you omit 2013 when Rossi was struggling but want to include the years that Lorenzo struggled thanks to tyres? As if Rossi's new crew chief is actually better than JB who has been a part of 13 championships.
Why is the Lorenzo developed Ducati already doing so much better than the Rossi developed Ducati?
 
RCV600RR said:
I recall Stoner saying someone from Marquez' camp opposed it. Let me dig it up.

EDIT: http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/225999/1/stoner-marquez-felt-threatened
Click to expand...
Isn't this insane? This should have been the biggest GP story for years. Yet we have to go digging for the minimal of details. I said it at the time, we all lost the GP event of the decade, if not this century. The two fastest riders of our era, on the same bike, for possibly multiple races! Shame on HRC, shame on every supposed sport journalists that didn’t pursue every detail of this story. I swear the entire GP media is the Fox news equivalent, a weak ... homogeneous body of sell-outs. We've been cheated.

This should renew the admiration for Casey Stoner, and his detractors should reevaluate their opinion of the man. Casey proposed the racing event of the era, and he was turned down for some chickenshit ........ fear, power politics, and branding.

How can anybody dislike this guy? He was up to race Marquez and threw down the gauntlet publicly! So much for those who think he was chicken, weak minded, fragile, or afraid to put his balls on the line. Think of this the next time you see Marquez do some amazing .... on the bike, that you were robbed of seeing him go toe to toe with arguably a superior match in terms of grand prix motorcycling audacity. Next time you have this thought: holy .... Marquez is great, remember Casey Stoner threw in his name into the ring to measure up. And for me, my money would have been on Stoner! You can say Marc would have taken it to Casey, bla bla, you'll need to reconcile this fact: 'only' one of these two was willing to throw down! Marc could have also said publicly, I'm down, and I want it to happen. Did he? Maybe someone can 'dig' it up, but I certainly do not remember Marc pushing for the mother of all match ups. One was down the other by omission pussied the .... out.

It wasn't the first time Casey Stoner was vetoed out of fear, yet Stoner is called the ...... How's that for ... backwards? Alberto Puig didn’t want Stoner on equal terms with Pedrosa. Rossi didn't want him as a teammate. Weak ... HRC and Marc's camp, and to an extend Marc himself through omission, chickenshitted out of running along side Casey Stoner.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
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Jumkie said:
Isn't this insane? This should have been the biggest GP story for years. Yet we have to go digging for the minimal of details. I said it at the time, we all lost the GP event of the decade, if not this century. The two fastest riders of our era, on the same bike, for possibly multiple races! Shame on HRC, shame on every supposed sport journalists that didn’t pursue every detail of this story. I swear the entire GP media is the Fox news equivalent, a weak ... homogeneous body of sell-outs. We've been cheated.

This should renew the admiration for Casey Stoner, and his detractors should reevaluate their opinion of the man. Casey proposed the racing event of the era, and he was turned down for some chickenshit ........ fear, power politics, and branding.

How can anybody dislike this guy? He was up to race Marquez and threw down the gauntlet publicly! So much for those who think he was chicken, weak minded, fragile, or afraid to put his balls on the line. Think of this the next time you see Marquez do some amazing .... on the bike, that you were robbed of seeing him go toe to toe with arguably a superior match in terms of grand prix motorcycling audacity. Next time you have this thought: holy .... Marquez is great, remember Casey Stoner threw in his name into the ring to measure up. And for me, my money would have been on Stoner! You can say Marc would have taken it to Casey, bla bla, you'll need to reconcile this fact: 'only' one of these two was willing to throw down! Marc could have also said publicly, I'm down, and I want it to happen. Did he? Maybe someone can 'dig' it up, but I certainly do not remember Marc pushing for the mother of all match ups. One was down the other by omission pussied the .... out.

It wasn't the first time Casey Stoner was vetoed out of fear, yet Stoner is called the ...... How's that for ... backwards? Alberto Puig didn’t want Stoner on equal terms with Pedrosa. Rossi didn't want him as a teammate. Weak ... HRC and Marc's camp, and to an extend Marc himself through omission, chickenshitted out of running along side Casey Stoner.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
Click to expand...

Marc could have made it happen no doubt but it was a "everything to lose and nothing to gain" situation.
 
In the end of the day, he's just a fisherman, a daddy, and a test rider with lack of test schedule. Why the mighty MM entourage afraid of him? Did they doubting MM's mighty talent against Stoner? Did they just don't want to Stoner distract MM's focus?

I think there's differences in the HRC camp about the development of RCV in 2015, or perhaps earlier than that (2014?). That made ALZAmora persuade HRC to give Stoner little time as possible jump on the bike.
 
povol said:
Marc could have made it happen no doubt but it was a "everything to lose and nothing to gain" situation.
Click to expand...

He might convince HRC more to listen, rather than Stoner.
Lose to who? A retired rider with lack of bike time? Did he really afraid of losing by him? He shouldn't, and just said "bring it on".

Right now i just waiting Stoner to actually race MM in ducati, and we'll hopefully get the answer who's the God.
 
HelloMars said:
He might convince HRC more to listen, rather than Stoner.
Lose to who? A retired rider with lack of bike time? Did he really afraid of losing by him? He shouldn't, and just said "bring it on".

Right now i just waiting Stoner to actually race MM in ducati, and we'll hopefully get the answer who's the God.
Click to expand...

To be fair to all parties, Marc is so great people forget he wasn't doing so well in early 2015, he had already thrown the bike down the road severally and kept doing so afterwards, 6 dnfs prior to PI 2015, a significant contributor to him currently bidding for his 4th rather than his 5th title.

I think HRC who are in the business of winning titles with the 2015 title not yet impossible for MM were at the time trying to convince MM to change his approach from trying to dominate every lap to the more successful approach he has employed this year and last year, and I can imagine HRC considering giving him Casey Stoner to race on his own team not conducive to that aim.
 
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povol said:
Marc could have made it happen no doubt but it was a "everything to lose and nothing to gain" situation.
Click to expand...
Makes sence. Remember how riders used to say they would look at Stoners data and could not figure out what he was doing or how he rode. Marquez and his camp would have poured over every bit of Stoners test data on the Honda to compare the two. My guess is Marquez rides nothing like Stoner and can't replicate it. Plus that was the year they had the over aggressive engine dramas. Immediately I think Ducati. A guy who could ride the 07 Ducati like that? For sure like Jum says Stoner threw down and Marquez, perhaps wisely for his own sake, pulled out. The one rider imo who has spent a lot of time looking over Stoners data is Dovi. He's supposedly a very intelligent guy, he might not ride the same but he's likely learned a trick or two.
 
p4p1 said:
So you have nothing to say about Lorenzos favoured tyre for the second time in two years strangely being taken away after he had dominated on them?
What about Lorenzos development input?
How important was that?
Where is the bike right now without it?
Where's Rossi without Lorenzos development now he's left to develop on his own without special tyres?
Why do you omit 2013 when Rossi was struggling but want to include the years that Lorenzo struggled thanks to tyres? As if Rossi's new crew chief is actually better than JB who has been a part of 13 championships.
Why is the Lorenzo developed Ducati already doing so much better than the Rossi developed Ducati?
Click to expand...

I made an observation that Rossi's performance was generally better than JL's after Galbusera was his crewchief (i.e. the number of points accrued at the end of each championship, and also generally over that period). Of course, I used the word 'generally': JL scored more points than him in 2015 (but not 2014 and 2016).

The rest of the matters you bring up (whether Rossi developed the bike better than JL (or vice versa), whether JL liked the tyres, etc.) go to the question of why he performed better (rather than the fact that he performed better). They are obviously open to discussion.

But you've conveniently changed the question of whether he performed better (i.e. race results), to why he performed better.
 
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Jumkie said:
Isn't this insane? This should have been the biggest GP story for years. Yet we have to go digging for the minimal of details. I said it at the time, we all lost the GP event of the decade, if not this century. The two fastest riders of our era, on the same bike, for possibly multiple races! Shame on HRC, shame on every supposed sport journalists that didn’t pursue every detail of this story. I swear the entire GP media is the Fox news equivalent, a weak ... homogeneous body of sell-outs. We've been cheated.

This should renew the admiration for Casey Stoner, and his detractors should reevaluate their opinion of the man. Casey proposed the racing event of the era, and he was turned down for some chickenshit ........ fear, power politics, and branding.

How can anybody dislike this guy? He was up to race Marquez and threw down the gauntlet publicly! So much for those who think he was chicken, weak minded, fragile, or afraid to put his balls on the line. Think of this the next time you see Marquez do some amazing .... on the bike, that you were robbed of seeing him go toe to toe with arguably a superior match in terms of grand prix motorcycling audacity. Next time you have this thought: holy .... Marquez is great, remember Casey Stoner threw in his name into the ring to measure up. And for me, my money would have been on Stoner! You can say Marc would have taken it to Casey, bla bla, you'll need to reconcile this fact: 'only' one of these two was willing to throw down! Marc could have also said publicly, I'm down, and I want it to happen. Did he? Maybe someone can 'dig' it up, but I certainly do not remember Marc pushing for the mother of all match ups. One was down the other by omission pussied the .... out.

It wasn't the first time Casey Stoner was vetoed out of fear, yet Stoner is called the ...... How's that for ... backwards? Alberto Puig didn’t want Stoner on equal terms with Pedrosa. Rossi didn't want him as a teammate. Weak ... HRC and Marc's camp, and to an extend Marc himself through omission, chickenshitted out of running along side Casey Stoner.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
Click to expand...
It's a massive disappointment.

The truth is that everyone fears Stoner's ability.
 
p4p1 said:
I still believe that was taken out of context for a little bit a media beat up as usual. What Marquez said was that Stoner was fast when he tested and identified the problem straight away but he can't develop a bike only riding it once. I took it to mean that Marquez said that despite Stoner identifying exactly what the Hondas problem was when he only rides the bike once a year he can't develop the bike to get rid of the problem. But I'm not one to try and make up tension when there is none.
Click to expand...

I've read it in Spanish (I speak Spanish and Italian): that's not what it means.

The meaning of his words is essentially that it's impossible to develop anything when you jump on a bike after a long layoff. It's quite catty.
 
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birdman said:
Makes sence. Remember how riders used to say they would look at Stoners data and could not figure out what he was doing or how he rode. Marquez and his camp would have poured over every bit of Stoners test data on the Honda to compare the two. My guess is Marquez rides nothing like Stoner and can't replicate it. Plus that was the year they had the over aggressive engine dramas. Immediately I think Ducati. A guy who could ride the 07 Ducati like that? For sure like Jum says Stoner threw down and Marquez, perhaps wisely for his own sake, pulled out. The one rider imo who has spent a lot of time looking over Stoners data is Dovi. He's supposedly a very intelligent guy, he might not ride the same but he's likely learned a trick or two.
Click to expand...

Yes, I had the same thought, that flawed 2015 Honda would probably have given him a greater chance against MM than the deluxe 2014 version, Giacomo Agostini himself likened Stoner to Hailwood in that respect.

I still think HRC probably didn't want MM to have any more incentive to throw that 2015 bike down the road.
 

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