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Yes, MM was struggling in early 15. He had no pace at Qatar after running off, went through Q1 at Mugello (and crashed, way off the pace in the race), crashed at Catalunya off the pace, and was battling Bradley Smith on the Tech 3 at Le Mans.

Then, they solved the issues and he was very strong again.
 
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I made an observation that Rossi's performance was generally better than JL's after Galbusera was his crewchief (i.e. the number of points accrued at the end of each championship, and also generally over that period). Of course, I used the word 'generally': JL scored more points than him in 2015 (but not 2014 and 2016).

The rest of the matters you bring up (whether Rossi developed the bike better than JL (or vice versa), whether JL liked the tyres, etc.) go to the question of why he performed better (rather than the fact that he performed better). They are obviously open to discussion.

But you've conveniently changed the question of whether he performed better (i.e. race results), to why he performed better.

Your point is fair, but it is a little more complicated than that, in my opinion only of course.

Guys like Rossi and Lorenzo are motivated by titles then race wins, placings not so much by my observation. Do you think Rossi tried to finish 2nd rather than 3rd in 2007 once Stoner had clinched the title? I am sure he could have beaten Pedrosa had he really wanted to do so, but he concentrated on winning the 2008 title, pushed Yamaha to develop the pneumatic engine leading to a mechanical DNF with the new engine in a late season race, "negotiated" to get on Bridgestones for 2008 etc. Even last year in the race when MM clinched the title both Rossi and Lorenzo crashed out trying to maintain a mathematical chance of staying in the title race with MM rather than trying to beat each other; if beating Rossi in the end of season standings was his aim Jorge could have settled for a podium once Rossi crashed out.
 
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Your point is fair, but it is a little more complicated than that, in my opinion only of course.

Guys like Rossi and Lorenzo are motivated by titles then race wins, placings not so much by my observation. Do you think Rossi tried to finish 2nd rather than 3rd in 2007 once Stoner had clinched the title? I am sure he could have beaten Pedrosa had he really wanted to do so, but he concentrated on winning the 2008 title, pushed Yamaha to develop the pneumatic engine leading to a mechanical DNF with the new engine in a late season race, "negotiated" to get on Bridgestones for 2008 etc. Even last year in the race when MM clinched the title both Rossi and Lorenzo crashed out trying to maintain a mathematical chance of staying in the title race with MM rather than trying to beat each other; if beating Rossi in the end of season standings was his aim Jorge could have settled for a podium once Rossi crashed out.
Good points - I think both matter to them. I agree that the overriding obsession is the title, but once that's lost, they care about beating each other in the standings. They usually admit as much in interviews, FWIW.
 
Good points - I think both matter to them. I agree that the overriding obsession is the title, but once that's lost, they care about beating each other in the standings. They usually admit as much in interviews, FWIW.

Sure, they won't knock back beating a disliked rival in the standings, but I don't think guys at that level will pass up a race win for a podium position in the standings as they might do for an actual title.
 
Plus that was the year they had the over aggressive engine dramas. Immediately I think Ducati. A guy who could ride the 07 Ducati like that?

This is an insightful point, the type of profound evaluation that comes from observing the subject, identifying significant nuance then applying it to this discussion; details that are impossible to glean from a wiki profile; absolutely agree with the noteworthy detail Marc was struggling to adapt to the RCV's characteristics which from descriptions, behaved similar to the 07 Ducati. As a 'matter' of fact, the RCV was supposedly so bad, it prompt one famous blogger to exclaimed, it was like Marc had to race with one arm tied behind his back. He wasn't the only one to exaggerate the RCV's shortcomings, however real or imagined, Marc struggled on a machine that sounded and appeared eerily similar to the supercharged bucking bronco Ducati of 2007. It's all hypothetical of course, but my money would have been on Stoner. We'll never know, thanks in part to all the individuals that nixed the opportunity, from HRC principal to Marc's camp, the fact remains, Stoner undeniably made himself available for such a showdown.

If someone is tempted to reason, maybe Stoner looked over at Marc's struggling and thought it opportunistic; let put it into perspective, it was at COTA, Marc's absolute playground where Stoner proposed such a clash of Titans. Stoner was basically saying, I'll line up next to you in your house, a venue Marc has never lost, in a country he's never lost, in a track Casey had never ridden. That's what's up!

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
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What all you buffoons that follow QP, like it actually means something, fail to realize is that your being distracted by the bright and shiny object that is Casey Stoner.
If anyone's paying attention, the great battles of GP are very few and far between.
I know you all have fantasies that MM and CS will be battling like its Moto 3. We're still waiting for the epic Vinales vs, insert name here, battle, everyone predicted.
If your paying attention, these battles rarely happen. Races are usually decided by setup and tire preference that suits the track. One rider usually has it. Not 2 or 3. It is more likely that Stoner v Marquez, over the course of a season, would be the same.
Predictably, Stoner would be fastest at PI and MM at COTA. The rest just a toss up. That makes these one off, McStoner vs Merimarquez a total fraud.
Unless Stoner decides to race an entire season, the only conclusion you could draw from him winning a wildcard, is that he's still fast. Any other speculation is pure fanboy .........
There's a reason why they race whole seasons and not single events to decide who is the fastest.

Edited to add: Why would any title contender think it would be a good idea for Stoner to wildcard, especially from a teammate. We've had two seasons in the last nine years come down to the final race. what would have happened if stoner had scored wildcard wins in 2015? There's a chance nine times could be 10 times.
This subject has never been brought up but look what Troy Bayliss did in 06. I like Troy and I'm not saying he should have done otherwise, but it always bugged me that he was put in a position to upset the closest championship we had seen in years. I personally think it was more luck for Ducati that he was so fast that weekend. Noone expected that.
Would that have been an acceptable wildcard if it was expected? I don't believe so. That's what you would get from Stoner wildcarding.
If you want one off races that matter, watch the Monster Cup for Supercross or join Rossi's mundalito club
 
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What all you buffoons that follow QP like it actually means something fail to realize is that Your being distracted by the bright and shiny object that is Casey Stoner.
If anyone's paying attention, the great battles of GP are very few and far between. I know you all have fantasies that MM and CS will be battling like its Moto 3. We're still waiting for the epic Vinales vs insert name here, everyone predicted.
If your paying attention, these battles rarely happen. Races are usually decided by setup and tire preference that suits the track. One rider usually has it. Not 2 or 3. It is more likely that Stoner v Marquez over the course of a season would be the same.
Predictably, Stoner would be fastest at PI and MM at COTA. The rest just a toss up. That makes these one off, McStoner vs Merimarquez a total fraud.
Unless Stoner decides to race an entire season, the only conclusion you could draw from him winning a wildcard is that he's still fast. Any other speculation is pure fanboy .........
Theres a reason why they race whole seasons and not single events to decide who is the fastest.

Challenge accepted...

First of all, it's all ........ bro. This discussion is hypothetical, it's as real as the tooth fairy. Why I engage in it, why we all engage in the forum (all 8 of us) is a mystery, it's trivial and of no consequence, but we do it anyway. So having said that, let's have some diarrhea.

Ok...

So don't tune in to the Superbowl because it's unlikely to be a close contest. That's your argument Mr. Robot?

There's an interesting statistic making the rounds, the closest time margin between 1st to 15th has occurred more times this single year, 2017, than it has the entire history of MotoGP 'combined' since 1949. In other words, you're absolutely right, the likelihood of it being a close contest is like winning the powerball. That doesn't, hasn't, and shouldn't deter us from tuning in, has it? Not sure where you're getting the false premise that wanting to see MM vs CS must 'hinge' on it being a 'close contest.' Just a contest will do. Why? Because these are clearly the two fastest most audacious motorcycle racers of our era. FFS, if we're here it's because we have an unhealthy obsession with all things GP, wouldn't it be great if had happened, then spent the next decade breaking down every detail to extract the hundreds of dead horses on perpetual repeat?


So, i agree, I don’t think it would have been a shining example of a brilliantly close race, it was possible but unlikely; if that were the only reason to tune in we'd stop watching every single event contest. So who wouldn't wanted to see Marc & Casey line up, each on a shiny factory Honda? Part of the reason this is so compelling is because both are shiny objects, not just one, which is partly why it tickles the imagination. We agree Marc is the shiniest object currently in GP, Casey was the shiniest object in GP, when he tests he proves much of the luster hasn't dulled.

This isn't a Gayweather vs Mcgregor .... show fantasy, this isn't a lion vs bear type contest we're talking about; it was the real possibility of seeing the two fastest GP champions on the same factory machine, lining up to race. If it turned out not to be a blow out the logic goes it would diminish the authenticity and meaning of such an event? I'd say the answer is no way Juansay.

You being a soccer fan, I can see why you prefer their system of points over a season, just like GP, an accumulation of points. I wonder how compelling the NFL would be if they eliminated the playoffs and just crowned the team with the best regular season record. We can apply the big game concept to a wildcard showdown between thee two greats. That reminds me, your boy Ben Bostrom won a championship without a single race win, a real meaningful contest as you propose. They don't have a playoffs nor Superbowl in many forms of sports. So a one race showdown would be meaningless? Is the Superbowl champion any less meaningful if they got lucky or got to the playoffs as the wildcard? Why have the championship game then, if there is a possibility of it being a blow out? What then if the team with the lower season record wins the final? That's what we're proposing here, possibly 1-3 race shoot out (given Pedro was out recovering). Casey made himself available to go toe to toe with Marc. We're not proposing it have the same meaning as a championship finale, so let's not stretch it. Rather simply a showdown of sorts, an intriguing match up between the two riders that thrill even during a qualifying session were no direct battles happen. It's GP .... to many of us, watching in particular how these two imposed their will upon racing technological wonder machines. Not compelling or meaningful enough? Geez, you're a hard man to please.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
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What all you buffoons that follow QP, like it actually means something, fail to realize is that your being distracted by the bright and shiny object that is Casey Stoner.
If anyone's paying attention, the great battles of GP are very few and far between.
I know you all have fantasies that MM and CS will be battling like its Moto 3. We're still waiting for the epic Vinales vs, insert name here, battle, everyone predicted.
If your paying attention, these battles rarely happen. Races are usually decided by setup and tire preference that suits the track. One rider usually has it. Not 2 or 3. It is more likely that Stoner v Marquez, over the course of a season, would be the same.
Predictably, Stoner would be fastest at PI and MM at COTA. The rest just a toss up. That makes these one off, McStoner vs Merimarquez a total fraud.
Unless Stoner decides to race an entire season, the only conclusion you could draw from him winning a wildcard, is that he's still fast. Any other speculation is pure fanboy .........
There's a reason why they race whole seasons and not single events to decide who is the fastest.

Edited to add: Why would any title contender think it would be a good idea for Stoner to wildcard, especially from a teammate. We've had two seasons in the last nine years come down to the final race. what would have happened if stoner had scored wildcard wins in 2015? There's a chance nine times could be 10 times.
This subject has never been brought up but look what Troy Bayliss did in 06. I like Troy and I'm not saying he should have done otherwise, but it always bugged me that he was put in a position to upset the closest championship we had seen in years. I personally think it was more luck for Ducati that he was so fast that weekend. Noone expected that.
Would that have been an acceptable wildcard if it was expected? I don't believe so. That's what you would get from Stoner wildcarding.
If you want one off races that matter, watch the Monster Cup for Supercross or join Rossi's mundalito club
The 'championship' comes down to the same 4 every year. Honda Yamaha Yamaha Honda, Yamaha Yamaha Honda Honda the riders are mere light bulbs remember. The Stoner wildcard would have been interesting. He might have been total crap and past it. He might of won the race. Marquez claimed att he was too slow to be any use as a test rider. 2 years later he topped a test session. The more unpredictable the whole show becomes the better. Example a one testicle wildcard putting it up the the fancied favourites, give me more of that. If it affects the 'championship' all the better. Rossi hates non-contenders but I still like them. I know you got no foreskin, balls still firing on all cylinders?

Edit ah .... Jums beat me to it. Jum you know I can only post when the missus is shopping give me more time.
 
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Edit ah .... Jums beat me to it. Jum you know I can only post when the missus is shopping give me more time.


Comeon!!! In the time it takes jumkie to compose the next post your wife could:

Get hair done
Nails
Lashes

Myers
Country road
Coffee
Kmart
Jeans west
City beach
The lingerie shop
EB
Prouds
....
Insert every shop here ....

Coles.
 
The one rider imo who has spent a lot of time looking over Stoners data is Dovi. He's supposedly a very intelligent guy, he might not ride the same but he's likely learned a trick or two.

There have also been consistent whispers that Lorenzo is doing much the same each and every time CS tests .......... did hear a rumour (emphasis on rumour) that JL will have CS' data sent to him when CS tests and JL is not present so that he can try to understand.

There was also a mention earlier this season about the amount of time JL had spent talking with CS at some of the tests, including track maps and corner specific chats.

As mentioned though, rumour.



Good points - I think both matter to them. I agree that the overriding obsession is the title, but once that's lost, they care about beating each other in the standings. They usually admit as much in interviews, FWIW.

Irrespective of if you beat your team mate or do not, fact is that to guys at that level, to not win makes you a loser, be that first loser, second loser or distant loser, you are still a loser.
 
Edited to add: Why would any title contender think it would be a good idea for Stoner to wildcard, especially from a teammate. We've had two seasons in the last nine years come down to the final race. what would have happened if stoner had scored wildcard wins in 2015? There's a chance nine times could be 10 times.
This subject has never been brought up but look what Troy Bayliss did in 06. I like Troy and I'm not saying he should have done otherwise, but it always bugged me that he was put in a position to upset the closest championship we had seen in years. I personally think it was more luck for Ducati that he was so fast that weekend. Noone expected that.
Would that have been an acceptable wildcard if it was expected? I don't believe so. That's what you would get from Stoner wildcarding.
If you want one off races that matter, watch the Monster Cup for Supercross or join Rossi's mundalito club


Bayliss expected it and predicted it

He always said that if he could have his WSBK techs, he would win and for that one-off race he had a number of his WSBK crew with him.

As for upsetting the championship ......... has Uccio been in your ear about those not involved in the championship should not race? :p
 
Comeon!!! In the time it takes jumkie to compose the next post your wife could:

Get hair done
Nails
Lashes

Myers
Country road
Coffee
Kmart
Jeans west
City beach
The lingerie shop
EB
Prouds
....
Insert every shop here ....

Coles.

.:D:):(:eek:;):p
 
Wow.... great thread! Like old times. All these pages of dialogue and nobody has called anyone a bopper or a ..... And of course lots of talk about Stoner. Everybody remembered to take their meds this week. :thumbs:
 
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The 'championship' comes down to the same 4 every year. Honda Yamaha Yamaha Honda, Yamaha Yamaha Honda Honda the riders are mere light bulbs remember.

07 and 17 have been the exception to that rule though with Ducati. 7 must be a lucky number for the Italians.
 
Bayliss expected it and predicted it

He always said that if he could have his WSBK techs, he would win and for that one-off race he had a number of his WSBK crew with him.

As for upsetting the championship ......... has Uccio been in your ear about those not involved in the championship should not race? :p

Bayliss showed what he could do in that race.

Most underrated rider of the last two decades, IMO. Would've been awesome to see him and CS on the Duke in 07.
 
I would have prefered to see these 2 on Ducatis together more than anything. Better than CS & MM on Hondas for sure.
 

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