GP12 tested today at Jerez

hawkdriver said:

I don't think this is true, just look at Casey's coments compared to Pedrosa's coments about the Honda. Casey said the engine was fine while Pedrosa said it needs more work. What do you think happens when the bike is taken in that direction, the other riders will have a harder time riding the bike. Almost any top level Gp rider can disect a track, the line, and tell you what the bike is doing. Have you ever heard Nicky or Colin talk about Laguna Seca, it's amazing! This seems simple and proven to me, make a bike for Rossi and all will be able to ride it, make one for Stoner and only he'll be able to ride it at the limit. One of the things I'm most interested to see this season is what happens to all the Hondas, Dovi is already having problems, but I do think it's still to soon to say.

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You don't think dani continuing to fiddle with the bike without delivering a championship is what led honda to hire stoner?



If stoner can't develop as well as rossi then that's the way it is, and hardly any cause for shame. Some posters however, not necessarily you in a regular fashion, seem to find a way to find fault with absolutely anything stoner does or may/may not have done, as you are doing now even though the honda whether or not through his agency is widely regarded as the bike to be on. If stoner wins and dovi finishes 5th or 6th rather than 4th because the bike suits him a little less it will be a concern for dovi but for few others, particularly not honda, I would suggest. Ducati deliberately designed the ducati to be maximally powerful with no concessions to rideability because they thought that was the only possible way to beat rossi, there are many direct statements from them in 2007 to support this; to then blame stoner for being the only one able to ride the bike when the design/design philosophy was set well in advance of them hiring him seems harsh.

michaelm said:

You don't think dani continuing to fiddle with the bike without delivering a championship is what led honda to hire stoner?

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Certainly not entirely, and it has to be said that Dani is the only successful 800cc Honda rider and also has amassed 1006 points, 41 podiums and 10 wins so who knows where they may be without his fiddling, and losing out to Stoner in 2007, Rossi in 08-09 and Jorge last season is hardly a poor effort. I'd say Honda are just revisiting their old fashioned approach by hiring Stoner and giving Sic a Factory machine..........sheer weight of numbers, its worked before for them and it still may work again.

michaelm said:

If stoner can't develop as well as rossi then that's the way it is, and hardly any cause for shame. Some posters however, not necessarily you in a regular fashion, seem to find a way to find fault with absolutely anything stoner does or may/may not have done, as you are doing now even though the honda whether or not through his agency is widely regarded as the bike to be on. If stoner wins and dovi finishes 5th or 6th rather than 4th because the bike suits him a little less it will be a concern for dovi but for few others, particularly not honda, I would suggest. Ducati deliberately designed the ducati to be maximally powerful with no concessions to rideability because they thought that was the only possible way to beat rossi, there are many direct statements from them in 2007 to support this; to then blame stoner for being the only one able to ride the bike when the design/design philosophy was set well in advance of them hiring him seems harsh.

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I think what Hawk was trying to say is that the philosophy was wrong, of course granted Stoner Won in '2007' (there it is again!!!) though it can certainly be said that he hasn't since, and that the Ducati had become extremely unstable by 2010, who's to blame? No one knows, however the philosophy of just letting a rider, like Stoner, who just gets on and rides successfully straight away whilst ignoring the other riders in this case who are pointing out flaws (and potentially ignoring Stoner as well)- has been proven well by Ducati to not be the best way to win championships, for then there's only a problem when the other teams inevitably catch up.......and by then it may be too late to adjust.



It would be interesting to hear Dovi's thoughts on the Engine again as I can't recall his comments, also Sic's input. I know there are some problems with downshifting on the Honda. I do agree though if Casey says the Engine is fine and Pedders says it needs work, then the alarm bells are sounding for Honda to investigate.......for in Motogp nothing stays still for long, no doubt Yamaha's new box is coming soon, probably Ducati's gearing answer too NTM chassis, forks etc....

Talpa said:

Certainly not entirely, and it has to be said that Dani is the only successful 800cc Honda rider and also has amassed 1006 points, 41 podiums and 10 wins so who knows where they may be without his fiddling, and losing out to Stoner in 2007, Rossi in 08-09 and Jorge last season is hardly a poor effort. I'd say Honda are just revisiting their old fashioned approach by hiring Stoner and giving Sic a Factory machine..........sheer weight of numbers, its worked before for them and it still may work again.







I think what Hawk was trying to say is that the philosophy was wrong, of course granted Stoner Won in '2007' (there it is again!!!) though it can certainly be said that he hasn't since, and that the Ducati had become extremely unstable by 2010, who's to blame? No one knows, however the philosophy of just letting a rider, like Stoner, who just gets on and rides successfully straight away whilst ignoring the other riders in this case who are pointing out flaws (and potentially ignoring Stoner as well)- has been proven well by Ducati to not be the best way to win championships, for then there's only a problem when the other teams inevitably catch up.......and by then it may be too late to adjust.



It would be interesting to hear Dovi's thoughts on the Engine again as I can't recall his comments, also Sic's input. I know there are some problems with downshifting on the Honda. I do agree though if Casey says the Engine is fine and Pedders says it needs work, then the alarm bells are sounding for Honda to investigate.......for in Motogp nothing stays still for long, no doubt Yamaha's new box is coming soon, probably Ducati's gearing answer too NTM chassis, forks etc....

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Fair point the first one, although waiting to see the bike relatively deteriorate would be necessary to prove it. I still have the impression that dani is perhaps the opposite to your view of stoner, and that he wants everything to be perfect to an excessive degree, without having the wherewithal to actually make everything perfect which rossi may have.



On your second point what is admittedly obvious is that stoner didn't fix the ducati; my view as you know is that it may not be fixable with the current design on the current tyres. I don't think there was too much wrong with the 2008 ducati (once they ditched the "developed" engine ), with which he definitely had a shot at the title; other factors, particularly rossi's brilliant riding that year, came into that result.

Anders GUZZI said:

OK I must say I disagree totally. He didn't do the best of the engine???? He didn't work on set up to improve the handling???? Haven't you read his own statements on the Ducati pressreleases just about everyweekend? They tried new set ups every weekend last year for instance.Not until Aragon they found a solution.NO NEW PARTS.

On the engine developement. Same thing. But I would say he did the most of the engine they wouldn't change.

Win it or bin it....Do you think he wanted to crash?

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Whatever he was trying obviously didn't work too well until towards the end of the season, and even then there was another crash.



The crashes were partly due to the characteristics of the Desmo, partly due to carelessness.

Mr Squiggle said:

I take issue with both these statements.



Firstly whenever I have heard Stoner discussing how to approach riding around a particular racetrack he has always been very precise with what is required at certain parts of the track and has articulated his thoughts extremely well - in fact I would go so far as to say he is one of the best I have ever heard when it comes to discussing the intricacies of going fast around a circuit so I don't buy into this "Stoner can't develop or setup a bike or provide good feedback" ........ no matter how many times I hear this statement made - and it is usually made by those race fans who don't particularly like Casey Stoner.



I personally believe he provides excellent feedback....as to whether or not that information is acted upon is another story entirely....and to be fair he has only ever been with one team so far so the jury is still out on his development abilities as far as I am concerned. I also recall David Emmett saying something along the lines of he could listen to Stoner talk about riding for hours as it was always an education and this has also been my impression....



One of Caseys unique abilities is that he is able to go warp speed from his out lap which means he can quickly understand any problems or difficulties he is having with the bike and then have a fast turnaround when changes need to be made - and this has been on display for all the world to see over the past few years. The Ducati from all accounts is a fickle beast and one subtle change to a particular variable can turn the bike from a pig into a pearl so this ability of Stoners must have been an advantage to only him.



Secondly I would think it would be a complete disaster if Ducati fail with the supposed "GOAT" on their bike....after all there can be NO excuses if even he cannot get decent results and the blame will lie squarely at the feet of Ducati and its engineering team with far reaching consequences for the company..... so I believe they are throwing every resource they have available at the problems they have now in an effort to fix this bike. Something Casey was not afforded.

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You look at Stoner's constant tantrums, the fact that his points total went down year-on-year, the number of crashes in 2010. Then you look at what people round the paddock like Spalding say - Stoner has a very aggressive style, and is strong on certain circuits. But can he provide the feedback to significantly improve a bike? It can't all be Ducati, they need information from the racers.



I heard the bolded part over and over from that other poster, and I can't but feel it's the 'disclaimer' that will be used if and when Rossi and even Hayden start winning races.



The default position seems to be 'Ducati didn't listen to Stoner, but they'll outspend Honda to keep Rossi happy'. People acting like Ducati weren't even seriously trying for two years.

michaelm said:

If rossi starts winning races on the current bike without major design changes, or if the next bike is championship capable with the same chassis and engine design then you can blame stoner.

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Well there will be changes, Honda have moved heaven and earth and spent a fortune to improve their bike so Ducati have to respond to that.



As of now though, Rossi looked very fast at Jerez where lots of people made mistakes (fastest lap?), and I expect him to be quick at Estoril which is a real riders circuit.

michaelm said:

You don't think dani continuing to fiddle with the bike without delivering a championship is what led honda to hire stoner?



If stoner can't develop as well as rossi then that's the way it is, and hardly any cause for shame. Some posters however, not necessarily you in a regular fashion, seem to find a way to find fault with absolutely anything stoner does or may/may not have done, as you are doing now even though the honda whether or not through his agency is widely regarded as the bike to be on. If stoner wins and dovi finishes 5th or 6th rather than 4th because the bike suits him a little less it will be a concern for dovi but for few others, particularly not honda, I would suggest. Ducati deliberately designed the ducati to be maximally powerful with no concessions to rideability because they thought that was the only possible way to beat rossi, there are many direct statements from them in 2007 to support this; to then blame stoner for being the only one able to ride the bike when the design/design philosophy was set well in advance of them hiring him seems harsh.

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Some links would be nice here.



Of course, another way of reading that would be to say that Ducati didn't believe Stoner had any chance of beating Rossi due to raw ability. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Nino said:

Some links would be nice here.



Of course, another way of reading that would be to say that Ducati didn't believe Stoner had any chance of beating Rossi due to raw ability. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

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To be precise they didn't believe anyone could beat rossi due to raw ability. The design was well in train before they got stoner, he was something like their 4th choice, they signed him for 1 year only with the expectation that melandri would join the team in 2008. There are plenty of links in the 2007 threads, I am not about to chase them down for you at this remove in time.



In the end 2007 was probably serendipitous for both them and stoner, the odds on somebody being able to ride even the 2007 ducati on the 2007 bridgestones were longer than they appeared, and perhaps 2007 was injurious long -term to both, although a world championship is not trivial, particularly both ducati's and stoner's only one thus far. I think in the end ducati decided they were engineering geniuses, which they probably were to even win that one championship against the likes of honda and yamaha, but this resulted in a mind set that continuing to be radical was the way to go, and that the riders eventually including stoner were the problem rather than the design direction being wrong, helped by much talk of stoner being "broken" by rossi.

hawkdriver said:

Yes but they only got worst and worst until hitting rock bottom and coming out fighting. Like I said look at Casey's comments compared to Pedro, very different. Maybe Ducati decided to stop trying to build the bike for Casey because they don't understand his riding style. It had to of been hard for them to find a direction to move in when they don't even understand how he could be so much better than everyone else. Hell, they thought Marco had head problems, what does that say about their understanding of the bike and the way Stoner rode it. Rossi is a known variable to the equation, Casey is an unknown variable. That isn't an insult but a compliment. Ducati couldn't work with him because he is to damned radical and advanced, Honda will have an easier time figuring him out and exactly the best way to give him what he needs to win. For Ducati we have to also remember that with Vale comes JB and he has been there while Yam have figured out problems and built the best bike on the grid, him and Rossi can give them direction and let them know what works, what is worth investing in and exploring, and what should be left behind. I really think Casey is just to good for his own good, how do you build a bike for a guy that has a style like no one else and can go faster than anyone else. I do agree that Ducati needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel and just make it better, small bits at a time. Take what the Japanese have done and find subtle ways to improve.

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If it is your mission in life to find fault with Stoner - then I suppose it makes sense to blame him for the failings of

Ducati's design philosophy - despite the fact that this has been their modus operandi since before Stoner was born.



Read your own post and ask yourself; does it seem likely or logical that the results of all these talented riders

going down the tubes while riding for Ducati - is merely a coincidence? Or is it that Ducati is in massive denial

and as a corporate policy blames the riders for the deficiency of the bike? Which one makes more sense?



How the .... is Stoner an "unknown"? He had (despite being on .... Michelins) a very promising rookie year.

Then - out of the box - won the Ducati's first ever championship in 2007. And continued on to take more 800cc

podiums than anyone else.



You are pre-supposing that Rossi will whip the Ducati into shape. That is yet to happen. At this point evidence

points in the other direction as Rossi hasn't done ...., and Hayden's performance on the Rossi developed Ducati

has gone backwards.

hawkdriver said:

I don't think this is true, just look at Casey's coments compared to Pedrosa's coments about the Honda. Casey said the engine was fine while Pedrosa said it needs more work. What do you think happens when the bike is taken in that direction, the other riders will have a harder time riding the bike. Almost any top level Gp rider can disect a track, the line, and tell you what the bike is doing. Have you ever heard Nicky or Colin talk about Laguna Seca, it's amazing! This seems simple and proven to me, make a bike for Rossi and all will be able to ride it, make one for Stoner and only he'll be able to ride it at the limit. One of the things I'm most interested to see this season is what happens to all the Hondas, Dovi is already having problems, but I do think it's still to soon to say.

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So naturally that constitutes evidence of Pedrosa's superior ability to develop the Honda.



Or does it mean that Pedrosa is just a whiner?



Or does it mean neither?



Different riders have different preferences. Some work well with a screamer and some work well with big bang.



In every situation - you apply the negative to Stoner. Do you even know the

meaning of objectivity?



Oh... and if Pedrosa's ability to develop is so good - why pray tell have the Hondas been so far down in the results since 2007? Why were top positions on the podium the last 4 years Ducati (developed by ...... designer Stoner) 3 to 1?

Nino said:

Well there will be changes, Honda have moved heaven and earth and spent a fortune to improve their bike so Ducati have to respond to that.



As of now though, Rossi looked very fast at Jerez where lots of people made mistakes (fastest lap?), and I expect him to be quick at Estoril which is a real riders circuit.

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Yea, a little to fast wouldnt you say. Unless its raining at Estoril, what has Rossi shown that would lead you to believe he would be fast on a dry track.

Nino said:

You look at Stoner's constant tantrums, the fact that his points total went down year-on-year, the number of crashes in 2010. Then you look at what people round the paddock like Spalding say - Stoner has a very aggressive style, and is strong on certain circuits. But can he provide the feedback to significantly improve a bike? It can't all be Ducati, they need information from the racers.



I heard the bolded part over and over from that other poster, and I can't but feel it's the 'disclaimer' that will be used if and when Rossi and even Hayden start winning races.



The default position seems to be 'Ducati didn't listen to Stoner, but they'll outspend Honda to keep Rossi happy'. People acting like Ducati weren't even seriously trying for two years.

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To be perfectly honest I find some people assign way too much importance to the riders abilities with respect to developing a competitive machine....as I stated I think Casey gives very precise feedback but that is entirely my opinion and not based on any hard evidence but rather a casual observation that I have gleaned from listening to him talk about riding a bike fast from point A to point B.



I believe the vast majority of development work is done by the factory itself and its engineering and design team and the mechanics who work on the bike. All the rider really has to do is provide feedback as to what is working and what isn't and that is really where their input ends. They are no more responsible for engineering the motorcycle and providing solutions to these problems than you or I. If Stoner isn't a development genius I really couldn't care less to be honest but I also think it is way too early to say categorically that he can't develop a motorcycle.



As for Rossi he needs to be winning races on the Ducati sooner rather than later as I would hate to see another factory leave MGP because of their failure to be competitive. He does have JB on his side which should make the job much easier as he is clearly one of the best chief mechanics to ever turn a spanner....can they again achieve what they did at Yamaha? Maybe.... but failure is not an option they would even consider at this point in time. However, the inherent problems of this particular motorcycle may provide unique challenges that even they cannot overcome.

"The default position seems to be 'Ducati didn't listen to Stoner, but they'll outspend Honda to keep Rossi happy'. People acting like Ducati weren't even seriously trying for two years."





Saw this captured in Squiggie's last post and thought I should point out that this is not entirely so.

After all we've seen the cute little wings they put on Ducatis. That should count for something.

Bubble

Nino said:

Whatever he was trying obviously didn't work too well until towards the end of the season, and even then there was another crash.



The crashes were partly due to the characteristics of the Desmo, partly due to carelessness.

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Ok then.We have different opinions,but It's not the end of the world.

Keshav said:

You might want to ask Nino if he can name names of "people in the paddocks" that he actually claims to know.

Or is this just more hearsay? People in the paddocks.

Yeah... that's a irrefutable and authoritative sounding source.

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I don't blame Nino for anything,he has read it somewhere probarbly and I doubt he would make stuff up.He's got his view and I've got mine.

On the other hand I could kill the moron journalists that distort the reality to make headlines or to keep things interresting,in their own world atleast.

Keshav said:

If it is your mission in life to find fault with Stoner - then I suppose it makes sense to blame him for the failings of

Ducati's design philosophy - despite the fact that this has been their modus operandi since before Stoner was born.



Read your own post and ask yourself; does it seem likely or logical that the results of all these talented riders

going down the tubes while riding for Ducati - is merely a coincidence? Or is it that Ducati is in massive denial

and as a corporate policy blames the riders for the deficiency of the bike? Which one makes more sense?



How the .... is Stoner an "unknown"? He had (despite being on .... Michelins) a very promising rookie year.

Then - out of the box - won the Ducati's first ever championship in 2007. And continued on to take more 800cc

podiums than anyone else.



You are pre-supposing that Rossi will whip the Ducati into shape. That is yet to happen. At this point evidence

points in the other direction as Rossi hasn't done ...., and Hayden's performance on the Rossi developed Ducati

has gone backwards.

Click to expand...

Man, you got to let this ducati/ rossi hate thing go, you'll give urself an ulcer



I think Stoner was a bit of an "unknown", not unknown as in "who is this guy", but unknown as in he was a bit of a gamble. No world championships to his name, and a ....... MASSIVE repair bill behind him (sorry, had to chuck that in there haha). So they took a bit of a punt in signing him, and it paid off.



As for Rossi and Haydens duke, check out where Rossi was at Valencia. He may as well have not have bothered turning up. He was .......... But the times have started to improve, maybe not heaps, but something is definately happening.



Maybe its hard for you to see throught those respsol coloured glasses

Keshav said:

If it is your mission in life to find fault with Stoner - then I suppose it makes sense to blame him for the failings of

Ducati's design philosophy - despite the fact that this has been their modus operandi since before Stoner was born.



Read your own post and ask yourself; does it seem likely or logical that the results of all these talented riders

going down the tubes while riding for Ducati - is merely a coincidence? Or is it that Ducati is in massive denial

and as a corporate policy blames the riders for the deficiency of the bike? Which one makes more sense?



How the .... is Stoner an "unknown"? He had (despite being on .... Michelins) a very promising rookie year.

Then - out of the box - won the Ducati's first ever championship in 2007. And continued on to take more 800cc

podiums than anyone else.



You are pre-supposing that Rossi will whip the Ducati into shape. That is yet to happen. At this point evidence

points in the other direction as Rossi hasn't done ...., and Hayden's performance on the Rossi developed Ducati

has gone backwards.

Click to expand...

Your reading comprehension is starting to get worst, wtf don't you understand about me saying my last staement was a compliment to Stoner and not an insult. What don't you understand about Ducati not having the resources to deal with such a talented rider that does things with the bike that no one else does. Stoner rides a bike like no one else on the grid. This has been said by several respected riders like Capi, Dovi, Spies and Melandri. Rossi even commented on it saying it was some kind of trick. I'm saying Casey needs to be with the most advanced team that has the resources to give him exactly what he needs, which is already different than what Pedro wants from the bike. If anything I am laying blame to Ducati, again pull your head out of your ... and stop trying to just be argumentative. The context that I used when I said unknown variable is about Stoner's style. Next time just ask when .... is over your head instead being so ready to defend Stoner. Yes, I'm saying Rossi and JB will get the Ducati moving in the right direction, it has only been 2 races and one was in the wet. I'm not expecting a miracle but they are obviously making changes.

So one more time just for you buddy. Stoner can handle more bike than the others, he can find grip or slide it when needed and he probably has the best throttle control of any rider so what do you thinks happens when you put another rider on a bike to his liking, they probably won't ride it as well as him.

Keshav said:

So naturally that constitutes evidence of Pedrosa's superior ability to develop the Honda.



Or does it mean that Pedrosa is just a whiner?



Or does it mean neither?



Different riders have different preferences. Some work well with a screamer and some work well with big bang.



In every situation - you apply the negative to Stoner. Do you even know the

meaning of objectivity?



Oh... and if Pedrosa's ability to develop is so good - why pray tell have the Hondas been so far down in the results since 2007? Why were top positions on the podium the last 4 years Ducati (developed by ...... designer Stoner) 3 to 1?

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Sheesh, it simply means that Pedro needs a smoother power delivery to control the bike. Why even bring up whineing, they both have given feedback on what they want to use and where they want to see improvements. I'm simply pointing out the differences. Like I said in another thread, it's good he went to Honda because they can make the bike the way he needs it while also giving the other riders what they need.

All this ........ about Stoners development ability is bordering on ridiculous. He has stated that what he got at the start of the year was what he finished the year with & other than set up changes there was no real development on the bike. How can he have no development skills when he was never given the oppotunity to develop it.



Ditto on his unique riding style. Did anyone consider that his riding style was borne out of necessity due to Ducatis lack of development. Maybe a few of the other riders need to develop a few riding style development skills. A truely great rider has the ability to develop their riding style to suit the idiosycrasies of whatever bike they are on, not just develop a bike to suit their particular style. Stoner came through 125 & 250 FFS. Did he really develop a style to ride a bucking Ducati screamer in these classes. I very much doubt it. While at Ducati, Stoner adapted his style to suit the bike & now he has done the same at Honda. Do you really think he is using the same technique to ride the Honda that he was using at Ducati.



It's time for the current Ducati riders, Rossi included, to adapt their style to suit the bike as well as develop it. Rossi & Caparossi have both stated thay can't ride the Ducati the way Stoner does, therefore they can't develop their riding style to suit the Ducati. If they can't alter their style to suit the bike, how can they be considered great riders. Surely a great rider must be able to adapt their style. The Ducati can be ridden at race winning pace, as has been shown by Stoner of the last 4 years, so man up you ....... & ride it. If a rider can't alter his style to suit the bike then they are only doing half the job. End of story.