GP12 tested today at Jerez

digger said:

Man, you got to let this ducati/ rossi hate thing go, you'll give urself an ulcer

I think Stoner was a bit of an "unknown", not unknown as in "who is this guy", but unknown as in he was a bit of a gamble. No world championships to his name, and a ....... MASSIVE repair bill behind him (sorry, had to chuck that in there haha). So they took a bit of a punt in signing him, and it paid off.



As for Rossi and Haydens duke, check out where Rossi was at Valencia. He may as well have not have bothered turning up. He was .......... But the times have started to improve, maybe not heaps, but something is definately happening.



Maybe its hard for you to see throught those respsol coloured glasses

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Nothing wrong with my stomach. Just having a hard time digesting the Rossi-fan hype over things he hasn't done.



The part about Stoner being an unknown is so silly - it doesn't merit a reply



Times have started to improve??? Really. Could have fooled me.

Nino said:

The crashes were partly due to the characteristics of the Desmo, partly due to carelessness.

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I am glad we have the definitive word on this. I guess this means you agree rossi's crash at jerez was due to carelessness then .

hawkdriver said:

Your reading comprehension is starting to get worst, wtf don't you understand about me saying my last staement was a compliment to Stoner and not an insult. What don't you understand about Ducati not having the resources to deal with such a talented rider that does things with the bike that no one else does. Stoner rides a bike like no one else on the grid. This has been said by several respected riders like Capi, Dovi, Spies and Melandri. Rossi even commented on it saying it was some kind of trick. I'm saying Casey needs to be with the most advanced team that has the resources to give him exactly what he needs, which is already different than what Pedro wants from the bike. If anything I am laying blame to Ducati, again pull your head out of your ... and stop trying to just be argumentative. The context that I used when I said unknown variable is about Stoner's style. Next time just ask when .... is over your head instead being so ready to defend Stoner. Yes, I'm saying Rossi and JB will get the Ducati moving in the right direction, it has only been 2 races and one was in the wet. I'm not expecting a miracle but they are obviously making changes.

So one more time just for you buddy. Stoner can handle more bike than the others, he can find grip or slide it when needed and he probably has the best throttle control of any rider so what do you thinks happens when you put another rider on a bike to his liking, they probably won't ride it as well as him.

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That had to be one of the most backhanded compliments I'd ever run across.

Keshav said:

That had to be one of the most backhanded compliments I'd ever run across.

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Only in your conspiracy world. If you've read what I said about my favorite rider you'll understand that I'm not here to kiss any rider's .... The only reason I bother posting as much as I have been is because the anti Rossi .... is getting old. Haters gonna hate I guess.

Keshav said:

Nothing wrong with my stomach. Just having a hard time digesting the Rossi-fan hype over things he hasn't done.



The part about Stoner being an unknown is so silly - it doesn't merit a reply



Time have started to improve??? Really. Could have fooled me.

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Look at what stoners 2006 season ended up with. A fuggin hell of a lot of smashed up hondas and 8th place or something like that. Im not taking anything away from his riding ability, he's one of the best, but if you look at it from ducatis point of view, taking him on board could have gone real bad. He only had a couple of solid results in the premier class, so in comparison to the "known" options, he was somewhat of a dark horse. Maybe someone at corse saw a glimmer of potential in him and so they snapped him up, which turned out in their favour. So i still stand by the fact that he was an unknown entity.



You hate Rossi so much that you cant see that he has started to improve? Maybe you dont want to see it. C'mon man, you are the one who is always telling people to be objective.

povol said:

Yea, a little to fast wouldnt you say. Unless its raining at Estoril, what has Rossi shown that would lead you to believe he would be fast on a dry track.

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Rossi has a great track record at Estoril, and his shoulders had another month to heal. Throw in any updates from Ducati's blatant bit of cheating, and I think they'll have a decent weekend.

michaelm said:

To be precise they didn't believe anyone could beat rossi due to raw ability. The design was well in train before they got stoner, he was something like their 4th choice, they signed him for 1 year only with the expectation that melandri would join the team in 2008. There are plenty of links in the 2007 threads, I am not about to chase them down for you at this remove in time.



In the end 2007 was probably serendipitous for both them and stoner, the odds on somebody being able to ride even the 2007 ducati on the 2007 bridgestones were longer than they appeared, and perhaps 2007 was injurious long -term to both, although a world championship is not trivial, particularly both ducati's and stoner's only one thus far. I think in the end ducati decided they were engineering geniuses, which they probably were to even win that one championship against the likes of honda and yamaha, but this resulted in a mind set that continuing to be radical was the way to go, and that the riders eventually including stoner were the problem rather than the design direction being wrong, helped by much talk of stoner being "broken" by rossi.

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All I know is that Ducati had a very fast bike in 2007 and 2008, then they went backwards. I don't think you put that all at the teams door, the riders have to take some of the blame. Perhaps if they had better ideas their input would have formed a bigger part of the finished designs. Whatever, five crashes in a season is far too many.



If Rossi fails at Ducati people will be queuing up to criticise Rossi, whilst also mentioning the 'incredible' amounts of money Ducati have thrown around this season.

Mr Squiggle said:

To be perfectly honest I find some people assign way too much importance to the riders abilities with respect to developing a competitive machine....as I stated I think Casey gives very precise feedback but that is entirely my opinion and not based on any hard evidence but rather a casual observation that I have gleaned from listening to him talk about riding a bike fast from point A to point B.



I believe the vast majority of development work is done by the factory itself and its engineering and design team and the mechanics who work on the bike. All the rider really has to do is provide feedback as to what is working and what isn't and that is really where their input ends. They are no more responsible for engineering the motorcycle and providing solutions to these problems than you or I. If Stoner isn't a development genius I really couldn't care less to be honest but I also think it is way too early to say categorically that he can't develop a motorcycle.



As for Rossi he needs to be winning races on the Ducati sooner rather than later as I would hate to see another factory leave MGP because of their failure to be competitive. He does have JB on his side which should make the job much easier as he is clearly one of the best chief mechanics to ever turn a spanner....can they again achieve what they did at Yamaha? Maybe.... but failure is not an option they would even consider at this point in time. However, the inherent problems of this particular motorcycle may provide unique challenges that even they cannot overcome.

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Funny, many people on here have said Rossi has demanded an entirely new bike, with the blueprint already mapped out.

michaelm said:

I am glad we have the definitive word on this. I guess this means you agree rossi's crash at jerez was due to carelessness then

.

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Absolutely, unlike some I call a spade a spade. Rossi got in way too deep. Wet or not of course his times have improved, he posted he fastest lap of the race in Jerez but he messed up at a crucial point in the race.

Nino said:

Rossi has a great track record at Estoril, and his shoulders had another month to heal. Throw in any updates from Ducati's blatant bit of cheating, and I think they'll have a decent weekend.

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It's going to be interesting to watch their strategy for this week. If it's wet they probably don't change anything, if it's dry do they try some new parts or wait for the test. If we do see something new on Rossi's or Nicky's bike I hope it's a move made in confidence and not desperation.

hawkdriver said:

Only in your conspiracy world. If you've read what I said about my favorite rider you'll understand that I'm not here to kiss any rider's .... The only reason I bother posting as much as I have been is because the anti Rossi .... is getting old. Haters gonna hate I guess.

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Be a fan of rossi and praise him all you like, he deserves it and you have every reason to be a fan. However, while it doesn't mean that over the top criticism of rossi is not over the top, as I have said before what you are seeing is a reaction to years of hatred , often with a much nastier edge than criticism of rossi , of other riders particularly stoner, with the attitude of more than a few seemingly that rossi being so good means all other riders can and should be denigrated. An obstetrician I know once said in relation to the proliferation of medical malpractice lawyers that he could be sued both for doing a caesarian section and for not doing a caesarian section in exactly the same circumstance, and stoner's situation seems similar , with criticism of him now sometimes based on the exact opposite premise to criticism of him in the past, not infrequently by the same people.



Rossi's career if it ends tomorrow probably warrants him being immediately placed at the top of the pantheon, but while he is still racing the same standards should be applied to him as to his competitors, and I mean more in terms of attitudes to incidents like his jerez crash, or to his injury, rather than there being any conspiracy in his favour.

michaelm said:

Be a fan of rossi and praise him all you like, he deserves it and you have every reason to be a fan. However, while it doesn't mean that over the top criticism of rossi is not over the top, as I have said before what you are seeing is a reaction to years of hatred , often with a much nastier edge than criticism of rossi , of other riders particularly stoner, with the attitude of more than a few seemingly that rossi being so good means all other riders can and should be denigrated. An obstetrician I know once said in relation to the proliferation of medical malpractice lawyers that he could be sued both for doing a caesarian section and for not doing a caesarian section in exactly the same circumstance, and stoner's situation seems similar , with criticism of him now sometimes based on the exact opposite premise to criticism of him in the past, not infrequently by the same people.



Rossi's career if it ends tomorrow probably warrants him being immediately placed at the top of the pantheon, but while he is still racing the same standards should be applied to him as to his competitors, and I mean more in terms of attitudes to incidents like his jerez crash, or to his injury, rather than there being any conspiracy in his favour.

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Spin it how ever you like, and I'm just making fun of Kesh for saying there was a conspiracy going on in GP about this test lol. I do think all the history in the past 10yrs that is being brought up is interesting and it gives us all something to ..... about til the weekend. I think most of you Rossi haters are just mad that Rossi took Stoner out, I was pissed for a while when Nicky got taken out by Pedro but I didn't go around making up all kinds of conspiracy nonsense, and I'm even hoping the little guy's collar is all healed up. If Rossi does indeed get more attention from Ducati than Stoner did it's because he's earned it with his reputation and history. Look at how he was treated at Yam and how he brought them all together, that's something else you get with Rossi that is over looked. You can go back and look at Furusawa's interviews with Crash and on youtube to see that most of the engineers didn't get behind Furusawa's engine until Rossi said it was what he wanted. After 06 and 07 he pushed Furusawa and Co for more and they delivered the 08 M1, a three time winner that is so competetive it never needed any major updates. I imagine Ducati would be foaming at the mouth for a chance at 3+ good yrs by building a bike with Rossi's chosen parts. He's given it to yam twice now 990/800.

Definitive statement that the factories have agreed to extra private testing of 2012 bikes on david emmett's site.

digger said:

Look at what stoners 2006 season ended up with. A fuggin hell of a lot of smashed up hondas and 8th place or something like that. Im not taking anything away from his riding ability, he's one of the best, but if you look at it from ducatis point of view, taking him on board could have gone real bad. He only had a couple of solid results in the premier class, so in comparison to the "known" options, he was somewhat of a dark horse. Maybe someone at corse saw a glimmer of potential in him and so they snapped him up, which turned out in their favour. So i still stand by the fact that he was an unknown entity.

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I don't know if unknown is the right word, but he certainly wasn't their first choice. They made a big offer to Melandri, but Gresini wouldn't release him from his contract. They also courted Hayden pretty hard, along with Yamaha, but that didn't work out. They settled for Stoner, really, as they only signed him for a one-year contract, thinking they'd get Melandri in 2008.



As far as 2006, there's more to it than the results. He showed lots of speed in qualifying, and in the races he finished and before his crashes. He was dead last in Michelin pecking order. It's not that Michelin was a bad tire, but this was the height of the Saturday Night Special, and Stoner was last on the list. It's not surprising he was tucking the front everywhere. When a company is so busy supplying for Hayden, Rossi, Pedrosa, Melandri, and carrying out development with Edwards, you can see why Stoner's needs were overlooked.

Nino said:

Rossi has a great track record at Estoril, and his shoulders had another month to heal. Throw in any updates from Ducati's blatant bit of cheating, and I think they'll have a decent weekend.

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From what I understand, there won't be any updates during the race weekend. New chassis, engine internals, and electronics for Monday testing.

Nino said:

All I know is that Ducati had a very fast bike in 2007 and 2008, then they went backwards. I don't think you put that all at the teams door, the riders have to take some of the blame. Perhaps if they had better ideas their input would have formed a bigger part of the finished designs. Whatever, five crashes in a season is far too many.



If Rossi fails at Ducati people will be queuing up to criticise Rossi, whilst also mentioning the 'incredible' amounts of money Ducati have thrown around this season.

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I don't think it was so much that they went backwards as they never really progressed. The Ducati has never been that great of a bike, in my opinion. It's not coincidence Capirossi went from title contender in '06 to also ran in '07. Or that Melandri went from race winner to backmarker. Or that Hayden went from regular podium contender to fighting for top 10s. It's not a good bike, never has been (in the 800 era).



Sure, it went fast in a straight line, but it didn't do much else.

digger said:

Look at what stoners 2006 season ended up with. A fuggin hell of a lot of smashed up hondas and 8th place or something like that. Im not taking anything away from his riding ability, he's one of the best, but if you look at it from ducatis point of view, taking him on board could have gone real bad. He only had a couple of solid results in the premier class, so in comparison to the "known" options, he was somewhat of a dark horse. Maybe someone at corse saw a glimmer of potential in him and so they snapped him up, which turned out in their favour. So i still stand by the fact that he was an unknown entity.



You hate Rossi so much that you cant see that he has started to improve? Maybe you dont want to see it. C'mon man, you are the one who is always telling people to be objective.

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It's been pointed out a zillion times that Stoner was riding on bottom of the line Michelins that year and none of the

satellite riders on Michelins were doing any better in 2006. 8th place on a satellite

with off-the-shelf Michelins was mighty impressive in a rookie year.



For the zillionth time: I do not hate Rossi. I do have a lot of disdain for Rossi-fans with their "America-leave-it-or-love-it" mentality that scream Hater anytime someone says anything about Rossi that isn't ...-kissing praise.

Austin said:

From what I understand, there won't be any updates during the race weekend. New chassis, engine internals, and electronics for Monday testing.





I don't think it was so much that they went backwards as they never really progressed. The Ducati has never been that great of a bike, in my opinion. It's not coincidence Capirossi went from title contender in '06 to also ran in '07. Or that Melandri went from race winner to backmarker. Or that Hayden went from regular podium contender to fighting for top 10s. It's not a good bike, never has been (in the 800 era).



Sure, it went fast in a straight line, but it didn't do much else.

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Yeah the projected weather has probably screwed them over in that regard. They can probably expect to be fast again due to the Desmo's rear traction. What they need to be careful is the tyres going off too much in the second half of the race based on Emmett's comments.



I predicted Lorenzo to win, but it'll be harder for him in the wet imo.

Keshav said:

For the zillionth time: I do not hate Rossi. I do have a lot of disdain for Rossi-fans with their "America-leave-it-or-love-it" mentality that scream Hater anytime someone says anything about Rossi that isn't ...-kissing praise.

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Doesn't matter, you can dissemble all you like, you are just a hater, along with me and anyone who doesn't acknowledge the obvious truth that rossi would have won every race in history unless another rider had an advantage .

hawkdriver said:

building a bike with Rossi's chosen parts.

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No further questions m'lud

hawkdriver said:

Spin it how ever you like, and I'm just making fun of Kesh for saying there was a conspiracy going on in GP about this test lol.

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Gavin Emmett and Nick Harris in both FP1 & FP2 expressed that Ducati had pushed the circumventing of the rules to test the GP11. As they saw it, they put a GP12 lump into a GP11 and called it the 2012 bike. In other words, they both expressed what non-Rossi fans of the crazy category have been arguing didn't happen. We didn't get a press release from Ducati that they had took advantage of the gentlemen’s agreement to push the spirit of the agreement, have we? So I guess that's what you and J4rno are waiting for?



Gavin Emmet and Nick Harris---Rossi haters.

Jumkie said:

Gavin Emmett and Nick Harris in both FP1 & FP2 expressed that Ducati had pushed the circumventing of the rules to test the GP11. As they saw it, they put a GP12 lump into a GP11 and called it the 2012 bike. In other words, they both expressed what non-Rossi fans of the crazy category have been arguing didn't happen. We didn't get a press release from Ducati that they had took advantage of the gentlemen's agreement to push the spirit of the agreement, have we? So I guess that's what you and J4rno are waiting for?



Gavin Emmet and Nick Harris---Rossi haters.

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You are so boring. If the MSMA members do not complain, why should you or anybody else?



Well, I know very well why you insist so much on this non-issue as on other non-issues. You are a man on a (boring) mission, and you take it way too seriously... Jumkie, the anti-Rossi missionary...