Yamaha: Why Lorenzo won't test twice for Ducati

birdman · Nov 3, 2016

AJV80 said:
Hey Gaz I have that interview on a DVD somewhere that i think you are talking about. Of Nicky Hayden where he says Stoner is simply the fastest guy he has ever ridden with and tells his brother about him who couldn't really understand just what he meant. When another GP rider talks of you like that it means you are something special.

Stoners raw natural talent was amazing and I think even a little more precise and effictive than Marcs who seems a bit looser, wild and overriding the bike which is also spectacular to watch. I just find it weird when people classify and measure riders achievements greater over anothers achievements based on the fact that they had a different style of riding when they won. I mean all the riders have a different style of riding and the achievement is in them being faster than the other guys with their style of riding and winning more races and winning a championship, its an even bigger achievement when they can be faster and win on a sub par bike (no matter their style).

Dani Pedrosa effective way of picking the bike up out of corners in a way that nobody else can is also a unique style, if he won a championship would his achievement be measured as better or worse than Stoners, Rossi's, Lorenzo's or Marquez's because he does something on the bike in a way that they simply could not? I just find it a weird and subjective way of measuring someones achievements over anothers.

A championship is won by being the fastest guy over the season average. Some are more convincingly won than others and some are won with more difficulty by the rider having a sub par bike as a handicap. But I wouldn't measure one being a greater achievement over another based on the riders style being unique and unable to be replicated, its because the rider was faster no matter his style. Rossi winning a championship on the Yamaha and being the fastest guy on it over a season when it wasn't the best bike was a special achievement. Stoner being able to beat everyone on the Ducati when it wasn't the best bike too was a special achievement. I wouldn't argue one was greater over the other because of how different the riders riding style was or how difficult it was for other riders to replicate his style was.

The greatness of the achievement should be based on the results and the disparity in performance of the bikes they where on when they won. IMO Stoner winning on the Ducati was more difficult a task than Rossi winning on the Yamaha in his first year, this is just my opinion and subjective and not a fact but just what i think. Both of those championships would have been extremely tough for either rider and a real test of their metal and something they can both be extremely proud of.

I get what you are saying, I've had this discussion with the likes of J4 and Talpa etc before where they say oh the Ducati just happened to suit Stoners style. Sure riders have characteristic styles, but I don't think this is about style at all. This is about being able to win a championship on a bike no other rider in the field has any chance of winning on, regardless of style. Its about raising the level to new standards.

In 2007 Stoner encountered a Ducati that was an unrideable pig. Lets be clear he says it didn't suit him. Its well known with riders they will put up with lack of rear grip as long as the front is predictable and doesn't understeer. Well with the Duc he got both. What was required was not style based, he had to raise himself to a new higher level of riding, push himself further than ever before.

With Marquez this year we have witnessed something similar. The last 2 races I find very revealing. With the pressure off Marquez has relaxed ever so slightly and it has immediately resulted in crashes. With the Honda what do we know? We know it lacks drive and has to make up time on the brakes. What do we know about Michelin tires? The front sucks and folds without warning. For Honda that must have been absolutely diabolical. Its one and only advantage was neutralised. Marquez raised his level to a standard I believe no rider in this field could match. He was riding at 101% every corner every race unable to get away with even the slightest mistake.

That's what we have with Stoner and Marquez. Rossi is great yes and won in 2004 yes but I think Stoner and Marquez can win in 2004. I cant see Rossi win either 2007 on the Duc or 2016 on the Honda. In fact take it further, put a pimply faced 21 year old Rossi on the 2007 Duc, give him 4 years. I say at the end of that 4 years his confidence is absolutely shot and he's off to the shrink with Melandri. Just the 2 years on the Duc and the Lorenzo soft front tire was enough to shake Rossi's confidence making him look too old and past it in 2013. By comparison I think the likes of Stoner, Lorenzo, Marquez, maybe even Pedrosa would have done very well on any of Rossi's championship winning machines ala RCV V5 and M1 crossplane crank.

p4p1 · Nov 3, 2016

Very well put Birdman. We are classed as haters but I don't see any way anyone can logically dispute anything you've written here.

AJV80 · Nov 3, 2016

birdman said:
I get what you are saying, I've had this discussion with the likes of J4 and Talpa etc before where they say oh the Ducati just happened to suit Stoners style. Sure riders have characteristic styles, but I don't think this is about style at all. This is about being able to win a championship on a bike no other rider in the field has any chance of winning on, regardless of style. Its about raising the level to new standards.

In 2007 Stoner encountered a Ducati that was an unrideable pig. Lets be clear he says it didn't suit him. Its well known with riders they will put up with lack of rear grip as long as the front is predictable and doesn't understeer. Well with the Duc he got both. What was required was not style based, he had to raise himself to a new higher level of riding, push himself further than ever before.

With Marquez this year we have witnessed something similar. The last 2 races I find very revealing. With the pressure off Marquez has relaxed ever so slightly and it has immediately resulted in crashes. With the Honda what do we know? We know it lacks drive and has to make up time on the brakes. What do we know about Michelin tires? The front sucks and folds without warning. For Honda that must have been absolutely diabolical. Its one and only advantage was neutralised. Marquez raised his level to a standard I believe no rider in this field could match. He was riding at 101% every corner every race unable to get away with even the slightest mistake.

That's what we have with Stoner and Marquez. Rossi is great yes and won in 2004 yes but I think Stoner and Marquez can win in 2004. I cant see Rossi win either 2007 on the Duc or 2016 on the Honda. In fact take it further, put a pimply faced 21 year old Rossi on the 2007 Duc, give him 4 years. I say at the end of that 4 years his confidence is absolutely shot and he's off to the shrink with Melandri. Just the 2 years on the Duc and the Lorenzo soft front tire was enough to shake Rossi's confidence making him look too old and past it in 2013. By comparison I think the likes of Stoner, Lorenzo, Marquez, maybe even Pedrosa would have done very well on any of Rossi's championship winning machines ala RCV V5 and M1 crossplane crank.

Marc has had two crashes towards the end of the season but most of the other riders have crashed more than him throughout the year on average. I don't know if its him relaxing more or if its him being happier to over ride the bike and not settle for points like he has for most of the season.

I don't really like getting into pissing contests based on hypothetical scenarios or opinions as to whether someone would have been better or worse if they where a different age, in a different time and on a different bike ... there is no wrong or right answer and nothing can ever be proven and in the end its just someones opinion which is usually formed from emotion. I know people love Stoner and as time has gone on many romanticise about his Ducati years and him being on this unridable bike with square tyres and a spaghetti frame that if any other rider dared to ride would finish dead last or crash on the first corner. Although I fully appreciate Stoners achievements as i have mentioned before, Loris Caparossi finished 3rd in the world championship in 2006. It wasn't a great bike, wasn't a bad bike, it was just different as all bikes are and has strengths and weaknesses. I give Stoner huge credit for winning a title on it, as i give Rossi credit for winning a tittle on the Yamaha in his first year. My opinion only, Stoners bike lagged the field a little more than Rossi's first M1 but its just my opinion nothing more.

Gaz · Nov 3, 2016

p4p1 said:
Very well put Birdman. We are classed as haters but I don't see any way anyone can logically dispute anything you've written here.

Ah but some will try :happy:

birdman · Nov 3, 2016

AJV80 said:
I don't really like getting into pissing contests based on hypothetical scenarios.

I get the impression riders do though. Well Biaggi famously engaged in hypothetical pissing that if he had Rossi's bike he would be w/c.

But with Ducati what's hypothetical? When Melandri signed up he was convinced he was the better rider. When Rossi signed up he was convinced his piss went further, and I'm of the impression the lure of showing up Stoner on the Duc was a massive lure. Its an absolute comparison, nothing hypothetical about it. From that we can make an educated guess with no need for emotion.

The thing that gets my interest is this 80:20 Rossi appears to have invented. He's convinced he is the 80% rider that makes the difference. But this year I think he had the better bike. Id rather be on the Yamaha than the Honda. Therefore the rider that made the difference was in fact Marquez. The real 80:20 rider, thus the sole alien.

AJV80 · Nov 3, 2016

birdman said:
I get the impression riders do though. Well Biaggi famously engaged in hypothetical pissing that if he had Rossi's bike he would be w/c.

But with Ducati what's hypothetical? When Melandri signed up he was convinced he was the better rider. When Rossi signed up he was convinced his piss went further, and I'm of the impression the lure of showing up Stoner on the Duc was a massive lure. Its an absolute comparison, nothing hypothetical about it. From that we can make an educated guess with no need for emotion.

The thing that gets my interest is this 80:20 Rossi appears to have invented. He's convinced he is the 80% rider that makes the difference. But this year I think he had the better bike. Id rather be on the Yamaha than the Honda. Therefore the rider that made the difference was in fact Marquez. The real 80:20 rider, thus the sole alien.

Like you said mate, its a guess! So forgive me if I don't regard it as fact. If Rossi rode the 2007 Ducati in 2007 and Marc and Stoner rode his 2004 Yamaha in 2004 it would then be fact and provable but it didn't happen so its HYPOTHETICAL. But like you just said its a guess, albeit a good one. No need to get your nose out of joint over it.

michaelm · Nov 3, 2016

AJV80 said:
Like you said mate, its a guess! So forgive me if I don't regard it as fact. If Rossi rode the 2007 Ducati in 2007 and Marc and Stoner rode his 2004 Yamaha in 2004 it would then be fact and provable but it didn't happen so its HYPOTHETICAL. But like you just said its a guess, albeit a good one. No need to get your nose out of joint over it.

Not much of a guess. We have absolute comparisons in the end of season tests which were within 2 days of the last race of the season on the same track, and a proven race winner in Marco Melandri in 2007 and Rossi himself in 2010 not getting within 2 seconds and 1.5 seconds respectively of Stoner's best times, in Rossi's case in comparison with Stoner's time from the immediately preceding race weekend at the same time Stoner was immediately faster than Dani Pedrosa who had been riding the HRC bike all year and for several years previously. I can't remember how far Nicky Hayden was from Stoner's times at the 2008 post-season test, but it was also by a considerable margin and I do remember him shaking his head and opining that Ducati hadn't been paying Stoner enough to ride the pig of a thing.

2006 was a different formula with a very different engine than the peaky Ducati 800 thing, but a direct line can also be drawn through Loris Capirossi who won 3 races in 2006 as you say, and was in close contention for the title before accident and injury, but finished well down the field in 2007 with one win in an unusual wet-dry race which Stoner didn't need to win, covering/beating Rossi in that race being sufficient to clinch the title.

AJV80 · Nov 3, 2016

michaelm said:
Not much of a guess. We have absolute comparisons in the end of season tests which were within 2 days of the last race of the season on the same track, and a proven race winner in Marco Melandri in 2007 and Rossi himself in 2010 not getting within 2 seconds and 1.5 seconds of Stoner's best times from the immediately preceding week-ends, in Rossi's case at the same time Stoner was immediately faster than Dani Pedrosa who had been riding the HRC bike all year and for several years previously. I can't remember how far Nicky Hayden was from Stoner's times at the 2008 post-season test, but it was also by a considerable margin and I do remember him shaking his head and opining that Ducati hadn't been paying Stoner enough to ride the pig of a thing.

2006 was a different formula with a very different engine than the peaky Ducati 800 thing, but a direct line can also be drawn through Loris Capirossi who won 3 races in 2006 as you say, and was in close contention for the title before accident and injury, but was well down the field on 2007 with one win in an unusual wet-dry race which Stoner didn't need to win, covering/beating Rossi in that race being sufficient to clinch the title.

I dont see any valuing in persistently arguing over who is right or wrong on a hypothetical scenario that never took place of one rider riding another riders bike in the same championship 3 years later let alone Marc riding a Yamaha in 2004, I'm not talking about two days here just want to make that clear. These events never happened and could never happen so there can never be a right or wrong answer only opinions formed on best guess scenarios. These guesses are quite good and well thought but are just that, and can never be truly correct and passed off and argued as 'fact'.

In consideration of this i am being impartial and simply saying that both riders achieved great results in winning. Both had bikes with disadvantages over their competition and both riders had to rely more on their skill to bridge the gap to win in those years of 2004 and 2007. I have even mentioned that Stoner had a bigger challenge based on my 'opinion only' yet am still somehow incorrect ... go figure.

If something never took place you cannot be truly right or wrong about the outcome let alone pass it of as a fact, thats the only point I've ben making. The 'fact' that the results of something that never actually took place is persistently being argued about in terms of 'right' and 'wrong' kinda tells me that there is at aleast a little bit of emotion involved ... maybe?

michaelm · Nov 3, 2016

AJV80 said:
I dont see any valuing in persistently arguing over who is right or wrong on a hypothetical scenario that never took place of one rider riding another riders bike in the same championship 3 years later let alone Marc riding a Yamaha in 2004, I'm not talking about two days here just want to make that clear. These events never happened and could never happen so there can never be a right or wrong answer only opinions formed on best guess scenarios. These guesses are quite good and well thought but are just that, and can never be truly correct and passed off and argued as 'fact'.

In consideration of this i am being impartial and simply saying that both riders achieved great results in winning. Both had bikes with disadvantages over their competition and both riders had to rely more on their skill to bridge the gap to win in those years of 2004 and 2007. I have even mentioned that Stoner had a bigger challenge based on my 'opinion only' yet am still somehow incorrect ... go figure.

If something never took place you cannot be truly right or wrong about the outcome let alone pass it of as a fact, thats the only point I've ben making. The 'fact' that the results of something that never actually took place is persistently being argued about in terms of 'right' and 'wrong' kinda tells me that there is at aleast a little bit of emotion involved ... maybe?

I think it is reasonable to count the 2007 championship as exceptional given nobody else could win a dry race on an 800 Ducati over the entire duration of the 800 formula, including the winners of 8 premier class titles, a premier class title runner-up with 5 race wins and Loris Capirossi who has won 9, with no-one else winning a title for Ducati period, just as Rossi hopping on a new bike and immediately winning the title in 2004 was exceptional given Yamaha had last won a title in 1992, although Yamaha did at least have rather a strong tradition in GP bike racing. For similar reasons I think KRJR's title win on a Suzuki in 2000 is under-rated.

I didn't call you wrong btw, I just said that there is less guessing involved in regard to Stoner's results riding a Ducati 800 being exceptional than is often the case with such comparisons. Stoner partisans also remember long years of Stoner's performances on the Ducati being disparaged, the 2007 championship being attributed to a massive bike advantage, and any subsequent problems being attributed to him being "flaky" and/or making repetitive riding errors, which was rather thrown into sharp relief by Rossi's adventure at Ducati, Rossi himself fairly clearly having been one who accepted the narrative about Stoner being the problem with the Ducati before he had encountered the thing himself as Birdman said.

AJV80 · Nov 3, 2016

michaelm said:
I think it is reasonable to count the 2007 championship as exceptional given nobody else could win a dry race on an 800 Ducati over the entire duration of the 800 formula, including the winners of 8 premier class titles, a premier class title runner-up with 5 race wins and Loris Capirossi who has won 9, with no-one else winning a title for Ducati period, just as Rossi hopping on a new bike and immediately winning the title in 2004 was exceptional given Yamaha had last won a title in 1992, although Yamaha did at least have rather a strong tradition in GP bike racing. For similar reasons I think KRJR's title win on a Suzuki in 2000 is under-rated.

I didn't call you wrong btw, I just said that there is less guessing involved in regard to Stoner's results riding a Ducati 800 being exceptional than is often the case with such comparisons. Stoner partisans also remember long years of Stoner's performances on the Ducati being disparaged, the 2007 championship being attributed to a massive bike advantage, and any subsequent problems being attributed to him being "flaky" and/or making repetitive riding errors, which was rather thrown into sharp relief by Rossi's adventure at Ducati, Rossi himself fairly clearly having been one who accepted the narrative about Stoner being the problem with the Ducati before he had encountered the thing himself as Birdman said.

All good mate, I agree with what you are saying and even with what birdman has said and his opinions. Stoner is a great rider and probably the best the series has ever seen in terms of his speed and ability. I have always given him full credit for that and was disappointed as everyone was when he quit when he did because he had a lot more left in the tank, but also respected his decision and never judged him for it like many others have. I have even had a BBQ with his folks on the day he won the 2010 PI GP at the Seahorse Motel which we where both staying at, I talked their ears off giving him praise, they where lovely people actually and his mum was bumming smokes off me.

I just dislike hypothetical arguments about who could have won where and when and on what bike for the reasons i mentioned, the outcomes can often never be proven and therefore arguments can go on and on forever like a dog chasing its tail. As great as Stoner was he wasn't Jesus and didn't walk on water (all the time), he won 5 races in his final season, and missed three rounds from injury i think which cost him the championship. I don't discredit him for this but also don't discredit Lorenzo's winning of the championship due to Stoner missing some rounds, after all staying on the bike and not being injured is part of the skill needed to go fast and win a championship. Any championship is hard to win and any rider no matter how good they are will agree with that statement, Lorenzo's win in 2012 was well deserved and full credit to the guy for an excellent season.

michaelm · Nov 3, 2016

AJV80 said:
All good mate, I agree with what you are saying and even with what birdman has said and his opinions. Stoner is a great rider and probably the best the series has ever seen in terms of his speed and ability. I have always given him full credit for that and was disappointed as everyone was when he quit when he did because he had a lot more left in the tank, but also respected his decision and never judged him for it like many others have. I have even had a BBQ with his folks on the day he won the 2010 PI GP at the Seahorse Motel which we where both staying at, I talked their ears off giving him praise, they where lovely people actually and his mum was bumming smokes off me.

I just dislike hypothetical arguments about who could have won where and when and on what bike for the reasons i mentioned, the outcomes can often never be proven and therefore arguments can go on and on forever like a dog chasing its tail. As great as Stoner was he wasn't Jesus and didn't walk on water (all the time), he won 5 races in his final season, and missed three rounds from injury i think which cost him the championship. I don't discredit him for this but also don't discredit Lorenzo's winning of the championship due to Stoner missing some rounds, after all staying on the bike and not being injured is part of the skill needed to go fast and win a championship. Any championship is hard to win and any rider no matter how good they are will agree with that statement, Lorenzo's win in 2012 was well deserved and full credit to the guy for an excellent season.

Absolutely, my entire stance on here has been to credit whoever wins any title, with the sole exception of the lower class title Capirossi I think won by taking another rider out feloniously on the last lap.

I think Stoner rode about as well as anyone could ride in the 2 years he won the titles, could not reasonably have been expected to win a title on the latter day Ducati 800 or on the LCR Honda, but did have sufficiently good equipment in 2012 and did not win. His eventual accident and injury were probably at least partly related to a substandard track, but he had not shown the focus of his title years prior to that imo anyway.

p4p1 · Nov 3, 2016

How about this. Both Stoner and Marquez have equaled or bettered Rossi's most dominant season. Both have done it against better competition than showed the same dominance over a season. Both did it riding on a control tyre while Rossi only achieved similar dominance on a tyre made specifically for him. Stoner also did it on a bike no one else could get a dry win on.

As for Capirossi (and you forget to mention Bayless) in 2006 getting wins on the Duc think about this. In 2007 Stoner got more points than all other Ducati riders(Capirossi, Barros, Hoffman) put together. What makes that really impressive is Capirossi and Barros certainly weren't slouches and were riding around on the exact same tyres. You may remember when considering Barros that the only time he was on the same equipment as Rossi(2002)he out scored him.

None of this discredits Rossi or devalues his achievements but it at least for me gives his career and results more context. I certainly couldn't see Marquez or Stoner being beaten at all in any race assuming they kept the bike upright(and they would be able to ride pretty comfortable) in a season like 2002 if they were given the same advantages Rossi was given over his closest rivals.

AJV80 · Nov 3, 2016

michaelm said:
Absolutely, my entire stance on here has been to credit whoever wins any title, with the sole exception of the lower class title Capirossi I think won by taking another rider out feloniously on the last lap.

I think Stoner rode about as well as anyone could ride in the 2 years he won the titles, could not reasonably have been expected to win a title on the latter day Ducati 800 or on the LCR Honda, but did have sufficiently good equipment in 2012 but did not win. His eventual accident and injury were probably at least partly related to a substandard track, but he had not shown the focus of his title years prior to that imo anyway.

I always put his 2012 results down to him having a lot going on personally with leaving the series, thinking about that sort of stuff certainly wouldn't have helped his focus and mindset that year. I know what its like when you leave a job and when you know you are leaving you tend to get distracted in thought and think of things in a different light.

p4p1 · Nov 3, 2016

AJV80 said:
I always put his 2012 results down to him having a lot going on personally with leaving the series, thinking about that sort of stuff certainly wouldn't have helped his focus and mindset that year. I know what its like when you leave a job and when you know you are leaving you tend to get distracted in thought and think of things in a different light.

You really can't discount the last minute weight change or the infamous tyre change effecting his season either. Before then it looked like he was going to run away with the championship.

michaelm · Nov 4, 2016

p4p1 said:
You really can't discount the last minute weight change or the infamous tyre change effecting his season either. Before then it looked like he was going to run away with the championship.

Sure, but if his 2007 title win was as far outside the norm as I and others are claiming he should have been able to win on the 2012 Honda, even after he was handicapped. How many races did Dani win that year?

Yamaha: Why Lorenzo won't test twice for Ducati

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