Yamaha: Why Lorenzo won't test twice for Ducati

moto vudu said:

If you scroll up to my previous post you'll see that my reasoning for calling Stoner mentally weak is because he quit the sport due to being unable to handle negative fans & media.

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I know exactly what you were insinuating, but as you have done at times I chose a specific comment and utilised it for my argument and whilst you may be correct that Rossi did not leave the sport, that is because the threats to leave worked.

Stoner threatened and then followed through and yet is mentally weak - I guess our definitions of mentally weak differ, I mean, for 20 million dollars I would lay naked on a damn ants nest but Stoner said, no thanks I will go fishing ........ pretty good gig for a mentally weak person really

Gaz said:

I know exactly what you were insinuating, but as you have done at times I chose a specific comment and utilised it for my argument and whilst you may be correct that Rossi did not leave the sport, that is because the threats to leave worked.

Stoner threatened and then followed through and yet is mentally weak - I guess our definitions of mentally weak differ, I mean, for 20 million dollars I would lay naked on a damn ants nest but Stoner said, no thanks I will go fishing ........ pretty good gig for a mentally weak person really

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You believe Rossi would've quit the sport if he didn't get his way? The guy he probably on two wheels racing around his ranch right now.

Stoner wasn't motivate to compete by money. He was apparently motivated by the opinions of others. Too many negative opinions resulted in him no longer wanting to continue.

moto vudu said:

You believe Rossi would've quit the sport if he didn't get his way? The guy he probably on two wheels racing around his ranch right now.

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Nope.

Rossi would not have quit the sport as he knows full well that as the golden goose, he has power far and above that of the other geese in the flock so he knows that the farmer will listen and give him something to appease him

moto vudu said:

Stoner wasn't motivate to compete by money. He was apparently motivated by the opinions of others. Too many negative opinions resulted in him no longer wanting to continue.

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How is your psychology degree going btw?

Stoner competed to achieve that which he set for himself and in the end decided that he needed no more of the environment of the sport and the sports paddock so decided to spend more time with his family and less time being the brunt of others ridicule ...... the same ridicule that many mention as being uncalled for and seemingly constant if certain circumstances combine.

Mind you, I have never seen any quote attributed to Stoner where he mentions that others negative opinions were a reason that he left the sport so I assume that it has less a reason than you or perhaps others attribute but will happily accept that his negative opinion of DORNA and their directions heavily impacted his decision.

AJV80 said:

To be fair Rossi was in this category earlier in his career but defiantly isn't anymore and has been outgunned by the younger better riders for a long time. His time on the Honda was similar to Marc on the Honda, able to beat everybody anywhere but was also on a better bike than the other guys. I think the Honda Rossi won on was a much better bike compared to its competition in the day when compared with Marc's Honda which doesn't have as big an advantage comparatively of the rest of the field.

But in his first couple of season with Yamaha, he was much like Stoner was in 2007 and able to win on a sub par bike. The Yamaha he won on wasn't the Yamaha we have today and I think many people forget that, the Honda he was riding the season earlier was a much better bike. I understand many people hate on him but he was a great rider in his day. Many of his one eyed fans still like to think he is of the same calibre compared to the competition now but the truth is that he simply isn't and struggles to win on a bike that is quite good and very much comparable to the Honda, but even in saying this to be able to ride at the pointy end of the field on any bike is no easy feat.

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In his prime Rossi did what the others riders did, he just did it better. But ultimately he rode in a similar style to Capirossi and Biaggi. They all understood exactly what Rossi was doing, and at times they were able to match or even better him, but not very often. In fact Biaggi's wins on the early screamer Yamaha are not really recognized as maybe they should.

Don't let Uccio vudu hear this but I acknowledge Rossi as one of the all time greats. What he is doing now at 37, incredible. But with Stoner and Marquez what you have is two riders that the others cant replicate or even comprehend. That's the big difference. Aliens.

That is the only reason he has ever given for leaving the sport. Not the fans though I'm sure they would've made it harder but the series being centred around Rossi for some time, often at the expense of him and his results.

moto vudu said:

Rossi is still competing for the title. There is no problem for me nor him.

Problem for you is your boy is sitting on the sidelines scared to even temporarily get back in the game. He has revealed himself as a rather small man talking .... about what active riders are doing.

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i will give you something as far as him occasionally "talking ...." about what current riders are doing, although he does this rather less than many other retired former world champions imo.

I don't think he quit because he cared too much about the opinions of others, he quit because he found proving those opinions wrong insufficient motivation to continue after doing so by winning the second title in 2011, and because he disliked the circus into which Dorna and Rossi had transformed the sport, considering that risking his life for the entertainment of fans a substantial percentage of whom are poorly informed morons largely ignorant of the sport who were as he put it in his autobiography back to their customary backbiting within about a fortnight of Marco Simoncelli's death. JL and MM have opined similarly about such fans, and MM for one appears to have no fear of anything or anyone as far as I can discern.

I must have missed the announcement that Stoner has ever intended a comeback; all I can recall are his retirement announcement in 2012 when he was the defending champion and leading the championship, and later announcements that he was to test ride, initially for Honda and more recently for Ducati. When he did offer to wildcard for Honda the as above fearless MM was apparently not so keen on the idea, although I believe that was in all likelihood MM's connections rather than MM himself, and if Ducati still want him to wildcard and according to some reports before they signed Jorge early this season were desirous that he unretire and become their lead rider again, in this the 4th season of his retirement, that would seem to me to be testament to how good he was, and still is purely as a test rider, rather than anything negative as you are attempting (rather pathetically I might add) to argue.

birdman said:

In his prime Rossi did what the others riders did, he just did it better. But ultimately he rode in a similar style to Capirossi and Biaggi. They all understood exactly what Rossi was doing, and at times they were able to match or even better him, but not very often. In fact Biaggi's wins on the early screamer Yamaha are not really recognized as maybe they should.

Don't let Uccio vudu hear this but I acknowledge Rossi as one of the all time greats. What he is doing now at 37, incredible. But with Stoner and Marquez what you have is two riders that the others cant replicate or even comprehend. That's the big difference. Aliens.

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No doubt what he is doing at age 37 against current opposition is remarkable.

michaelm said:

No doubt what he is doing at age 37 against current opposition is remarkable.

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I believe the age is overused guys are doing just as well at his age in sports that require younger bodies. New age training and nutrition is allowing athletes in all sports more longevity. Not to mention electronics, 4 strokes and safety improvements making it easier to keep competitive for longer. That's not to say it's not impressive but IMO it's likely he is the first in a long line of guys to do the same.

Also Ago last title at 35, Doohan 34, Schumacher 35 etc.

p4p1 said:

I believe the age is overused guys are doing just as well at his age in sports that require younger bodies. New age training and nutrition is allowing athletes in all sports more longevity. Not to mention electronics, 4 strokes and safety improvements making it easier to keep competitive for longer. That's not to say it's not impressive but IMO it's likely he is the first in a long line of guys to do the same.

Also Ago last title at 35, Doohan 34, Schumacher 35 etc.

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Ago and Doohan both 33 by my reckoning, but Rossi's last title was at age 30.

birdman said:

In his prime Rossi did what the others riders did, he just did it better. But ultimately he rode in a similar style to Capirossi and Biaggi. They all understood exactly what Rossi was doing, and at times they were able to match or even better him, but not very often. In fact Biaggi's wins on the early screamer Yamaha are not really recognized as maybe they should.

Don't let Uccio vudu hear this but I acknowledge Rossi as one of the all time greats. What he is doing now at 37, incredible. But with Stoner and Marquez what you have is two riders that the others cant replicate or even comprehend. That's the big difference. Aliens.

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I know what you mean in that they have a different style to other riders in that they like to spin the rear up more to get them around the corner faster but I wouldn't proclaim that it makes their achievements any greater then what Rossi's where in his day in dominating the sport and at times on sub par bikes.

Gary McCoy liked to spin the rear up a lot when he rode his 500cc Yamaha and at times he was faster than all of his competition who also where unable to replicate his style, but if he went on to win a championship I still wouldn't claim he was an alien and that his achievements dwarfed Rossi's because he rode in a style that the others couldn't. What is it that Stoner and Marc do that others cannot replicate? If its spinning the rear tyre up then all of the riders do that, Stoner and Marc can just do it better and more effectively than the others and go faster because of it.

p4p1 said:

I believe the age is overused guys are doing just as well at his age in sports that require younger bodies. New age training and nutrition is allowing athletes in all sports more longevity. Not to mention electronics, 4 strokes and safety improvements making it easier to keep competitive for longer. That's not to say it's not impressive but IMO it's likely he is the first in a long line of guys to do the same.

Also Ago last title at 35, Doohan 34, Schumacher 35 etc.

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I agree, the age thing is overused. He isn't much older than Doohan and Schumacher and they have proved that it can be done. I doubt things get easier as you get older but the fact they have been continually working at that level and competing helps them maintain that level rather than having to build up to it at that age.

When Schumacher left and then came back it was much harder for him as I would imagine it would be for anybody Rossi included. I doubt that if Rossi had a 2 or 3 year break from racing when he was 34 that he would return at 37 and be as competitive as he is now on the same bike.

AJV80 said:

I agree, the age thing is overused. He isn't much older than Doohan and Schumacher and they have proved that it can be done. I doubt things get easier as you get older but the fact they have been continually working at that level and competing helps them maintain that level rather than having to build up to it at that age.

When Schumacher left and then came back it was much harder for him as I would imagine it would be for anybody Rossi included. I doubt that if Rossi had a 2 or 3 year break from racing when he was 34 that he would return at 37 and be as competitive as he is now on the same bike.

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I agree and that's what makes Stoners test times so impressive. It's hard to step away from any elite sport for so long and come back to be competitive regardless of age.

If guys like Mayweather and Pacquaio(who's style relies solely on physical gifts) can still be world champions at what a sport that relies on a young body and mind more so than racing, I have trouble finding Rossi's current performances so impressive. Maybe it was being obsessed with fighting from a young age that made me immune to being impressed by guys in their mid 30s being competitive.

AJV80 said:

Gary McCoy liked to spin the rear up a lot when he rode his 500cc Yamaha and at times he was faster than all of his competition who also where unable to replicate his style, but if he went on to win a championship I still wouldn't claim he was an alien and that his achievements dwarfed Rossi's because he rode in a style that the others couldn't. What is it that Stoner and Marc do that others cannot replicate? If its spinning the rear tyre up then all of the riders do that, Stoner and Marc can just do it better and more effectively than the others and go faster because of it.

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Nicky Hayden in a recent interview stated that Stoner was quite simply, the fastest rider he had seen.

Ben Spies in a televised interview once said (apologies as I am paraphrasing) he can follow some of the faster guys and can see what they do and why they are fast, but they are simply faster than him but with Stoner, he does some things that Spies simply cannot do or understand.

When I get home I will try to find the video and post the link (currently at work)

Not saying that either comments make one an alien over the other but for mine, when fellow riders speak in tones such as these then you know that the talent is special (much as they speak of Rossi's drive and longevity)

Gaz said:

Nicky Hayden in a recent interview stated that Stoner was quite simply, the fastest rider he had seen.

Ben Spies in a televised interview once said (apologies as I am paraphrasing) he can follow some of the faster guys and can see what they do and why they are fast, but they are simply faster than him but with Stoner, he does some things that Spies simply cannot do or understand.

When I get home I will try to find the video and post the link (currently at work)

Not saying that either comments make one an alien over the other but for mine, when fellow riders speak in tones such as these then you know that the talent is special (much as they speak of Rossi's drive and longevity)

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Hey Gaz I have that interview on a DVD somewhere that i think you are talking about. Of Nicky Hayden where he says Stoner is simply the fastest guy he has ever ridden with and tells his brother about him who couldn't really understand just what he meant. When another GP rider talks of you like that it means you are something special.

Stoners raw natural talent was amazing and I think even a little more precise and effictive than Marcs who seems a bit looser, wild and overriding the bike which is also spectacular to watch. I just find it weird when people classify and measure riders achievements greater over anothers achievements based on the fact that they had a different style of riding when they won. I mean all the riders have a different style of riding and the achievement is in them being faster than the other guys with their style of riding and winning more races and winning a championship, its an even bigger achievement when they can be faster and win on a sub par bike (no matter their style).

Dani Pedrosa effective way of picking the bike up out of corners in a way that nobody else can is also a unique style, if he won a championship would his achievement be measured as better or worse than Stoners, Rossi's, Lorenzo's or Marquez's because he does something on the bike in a way that they simply could not? I just find it a weird and subjective way of measuring someones achievements over anothers.

A championship is won by being the fastest guy over the season average. Some are more convincingly won than others and some are won with more difficulty by the rider having a sub par bike as a handicap. But I wouldn't measure one being a greater achievement over another based on the riders style being unique and unable to be replicated, its because the rider was faster no matter his style. Rossi winning a championship on the Yamaha and being the fastest guy on it over a season when it wasn't the best bike was a special achievement. Stoner being able to beat everyone on the Ducati when it wasn't the best bike too was a special achievement. I wouldn't argue one was greater over the other because of how different the riders riding style was or how difficult it was for other riders to replicate his style was.

The greatness of the achievement should be based on the results and the disparity in performance of the bikes they where on when they won. IMO Stoner winning on the Ducati was more difficult a task than Rossi winning on the Yamaha in his first year, this is just my opinion and subjective and not a fact but just what i think. Both of those championships would have been extremely tough for either rider and a real test of their metal and something they can both be extremely proud of.

p4p1 said:

I agree and that's what makes Stoners test times so impressive. It's hard to step away from any elite sport for so long and come back to be competitive regardless of age.

If guys like Mayweather and Pacquaio(who's style relies solely on physical gifts) can still be world champions at what a sport that relies on a young body and mind more so than racing, I have trouble finding Rossi's current performances so impressive. Maybe it was being obsessed with fighting from a young age that made me immune to being impressed by guys in their mid 30s being competitive.

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I'd love to see Stoner come back but i think its pretty clear he wont sadly. He is quick while testing a bike but can he still have the stamina to be quick in a race against everyone fighting tooth and nail over half a bike length .. we'll probably never know.

On Rossi at 38, I think of it like when you go to a gym and are already fit just maintaining your fitness level. Its a little easier because your muscles are ready for it and you are used to it all and the effort required isn't as great as someone who is extremely unfit and hasn't been to the gym in 5 years. His first gym visit he probably wont be able to move for the next 2 days. For him to put in the same workout as someone who is fit would require a hell of a lot more effort on his part and it would for a while until he builds his fitness level up. Rossi has been actively racing and training his entire career so he hasn't ever stopped and his skills are always honed in, If he stopped for a couple years it would be much harder for him to get back up to his previous performance level. A bit like Schumacher.

AJV80 said:

Hey Gaz I have that interview on a DVD somewhere that i think you are talking about. Of Nicky Hayden where he says Stoner is simply the fastest guy he has ever ridden with and tells his brother about him who couldn't really understand just what he meant. When another GP rider talks of you like that it means you are something special.

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Hayden's interview was in Superbike planet a week or so back where Spies is on Youtube somewhere and is part of a general discussion.

There is another around where riders are asked to pick the attribute (or attributes) of their fellow riders that they would most like to adopt or be able to do (also on youtube) which I find very interesting. Will see if I can find it

AJV80 said:

Stoners raw natural talent was amazing and I think even a little more precise and effictive than Marcs who seems a bit looser, wild and overriding the bike which is also spectacular to watch. I just find it weird when people classify and measure riders achievements greater over anothers achievements based on the fact that they had a different style of riding when they won. I mean all the riders have a different style of riding and the achievement is in them being faster than the other guys with their style of riding and winning more races and winning a championship, its an even bigger achievement when they can be faster and win on a sub par bike (no matter their style).

Dani Pedrosa effective way of picking the bike up out of corners in a way that nobody else can is also a unique style, if he won a championship would his achievement be measured as better or worse than Stoners, Rossi's, Lorenzo's or Marquez's because he does something on the bike in a way that they simply could not? I just find it a weird and subjective way of measuring someones achievements over anothers.

A championship is won by being the fastest guy over the season average. Some are more convincingly won than others and some are won with more difficulty by the rider having a sub par bike as a handicap. But I wouldn't measure one being a greater achievement over another based on the riders style being unique and unable to be replicated, its because the rider was faster no matter his style. Rossi winning a championship on the Yamaha and being the fastest guy on it over a season when it wasn't the best bike was a special achievement. Stoner being able to beat everyone on the Ducati when it wasn't the best bike too was a special achievement. I wouldn't argue one was greater over the other because of how different the riders riding style was or how difficult it was for other riders to replicate his style was.

The greatness of the achievement should be based on the results and the disparity in performance of the bikes they where on when they won. IMO Stoner winning on the Ducati was more difficult a task than Rossi winning on the Yamaha in his first year, this is just my opinion and subjective and not a fact but just what i think. Both of those championships would have been extremely tough for either rider and a real test of their metal and something they can both be extremely proud of.

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IMO only here but championship does not an alien make and personally, I despise the term alien as for me every one of these guys is an alien to me as I can't even do what they do as well as they do it in my damn dreams, so for me, to classify one over the other is like a penis size comparo - may seem interesting when drunk but in reality achieves nothing.

That said, I do believe that some guys have better skill in certain areas than do others, ...., I am a firm believer that Stoner has a unique skill at T3 Phillip Island that others do not, but that does not mean that others are not as efficient through that turn.

For me, the alien talk is ........ anyway, thus why I will avoid it where possible although I will get involved in discussions surrounding my opinions of skill sets etc.

AJV80 said:

I'd love to see Stoner come back but i think its pretty clear he wont sadly. He is quick while testing a bike but can he still have the stamina to be quick in a race against everyone fighting tooth and nail over half a bike length .. we'll probably never know.

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I wouldn't (and that is to racing).

I said at the time and will say again, once retired then stay retired (exceptions are medical retirements where developments allow a return).

Personally I have enjoyed the seeming fact that he has no interest in a full time return but is or has dabbled with ticking off objectives he may have held for some time (V8's, Suzuka 8 hour )

Gaz said:

Hayden's interview was in Superbike planet a week or so back where Spies is on Youtube somewhere and is part of a general discussion.

There is another around where riders are asked to pick the attribute (or attributes) of their fellow riders that they would most like to adopt or be able to do (also on youtube) which I find very interesting. Will see if I can find it





IMO only here but championship does not an alien make and personally, I despise the term alien as for me every one of these guys is an alien to me as I can't even do what they do as well as they do it in my damn dreams, so for me, to classify one over the other is like a penis size comparo - may seem interesting when drunk but in reality achieves nothing.

That said, I do believe that some guys have better skill in certain areas than do others, ...., I am a firm believer that Stoner has a unique skill at T3 Phillip Island that others do not, but that does not mean that others are not as efficient through that turn.

For me, the alien talk is ........ anyway, thus why I will avoid it where possible although I will get involved in discussions surrounding my opinions of skill sets etc.

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Amen mate, I fully agree with the alien talk being utter rubbish, just a silly buzzword with no official definition that is popular atm that everyone is simply regurgitating at nauseam and even going as far as to argue over who is and isn't one ... go figure. All riders have their strengths and weakness's and to try and compare them is like you say, just entering into a pissing contest based on opinion and emotion.

Can you please share the Nicky Hayden link, it sounds vaguely familiar and i watched something like that recently with Hayden but don't remember Spies so it sounds like a different interview. I remember that interview where they ask each rider what attribute they liked best from the other riders which was interesting and may be where I'm getting confused.

AJV80 said:

Amen mate, I fully agree with the alien talk being utter rubbish, just a silly buzzword with no official definition that is popular atm that everyone is simply regurgitating at nauseam and even going as far as to argue over who is and isn't one ... go figure. All riders have their strengths and weakness's and to try and compare them is like you say, just entering into a pissing contest based on opinion and emotion.

Can you please share the Nicky Hayden link, it sounds vaguely familiar and i watched something like that recently with Hayden but don't remember Spies so it sounds like a different interview. I remember that interview where they ask each rider what attribute they liked best from the other riders which was interesting and may be where I'm getting confused.

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It was posted with some excerpts when it first came out but may have been missed amongst the talk of getting Uccio into the legends hall

Soup :: Interview: American Racer Nicky Hayden :: 10-25-2016

The talk of his team mates is interesting and really great that he mentions the oft forgotten Barros


Spies comments at 38 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wr9qPGlefA

And this is the other video - the one where they discuss what aspect they would take from another rider
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hp54N8wK7U

Gaz said:

I wouldn't (and that is to racing).

I said at the time and will say again, once retired then stay retired (exceptions are medical retirements where developments allow a return).

Personally I have enjoyed the seeming fact that he has no interest in a full time return but is or has dabbled with ticking off objectives he may have held for some time (V8's, Suzuka 8 hour )

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Although it will never happen in a million years especially now, but when he was still testing for HRC I would have loved to see him return to Honda as team mate to Marquez. Would defiantly have made the series interesting for the viewers and fans even if it was only for a few races.

We may not see Stoner race in MotoGP again but at least we get to watch Karel Abraham back in the series next year, next best thing.