Fall out from the loss of Marco Simoncelli

bojuhl said:

Compare this scene to the way an American football player is completely immobilized by professionals before ever being moved at all when there is a upper torso injury. This is completely outrageous and primitive treatment of an individual with upper torso trauma. Regardless of how critical shape he was in. The trauma and vitals stability equipment and personnel should be deployed to the location. We build multimillion dollar facilities and motorcycles and then drag someone off the track in this manner is just unacceptable.

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Moot point but spot on. This would never happen in America. Theres too much protocol. Not to mention running with a stretcher.

The marshals respond as well as possible. 99.9 % of their time they are picking bikes out of gravel and dusting a rider off. A race track is not the the controlled setting an NFL stadium is. Nor are the injuries similar. True, this is upper trauma and spine/neck should be immobilized, but keep in mind the state of the rest of the injuries. I won't describe what I think Marco's injuries looked like because I think we all can imagine.



The only way Marco may have survived is if there was a hospital on the inside of that fatal corner. The idea of the chopper flying to the track site sounds like a descent idea, but then there are most crashes where a trip to the Clinica Mobil is all that is needed. When do you send the chopper up? Or, I was just thinking, that the areal TV chopper could be doubled up as at TV platform/Trauma chopper. They are always on top of the action and have the best vantage point of everything.... Maybe?

Jumkie said:

Regarding your point. In this case, Sadly, I honestly think Marco was instantly killed on impact. Whoever, your point would be of concern if the rider would had sustained injuries that a few extra moments could have saved his life. Again, in this case, I doubt anything could have been done.



Welcome to the forum, please continue to post.

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I diagree with these aruments. I think the way Marco was handled was wrong and probably against protocol. I think if it was an accidant on a public road, this kind of treatment would be reviewed by authorities. And him being dead or alive does not mean anything at that point, he should have been either treated on location (with CPR) or evacuated in another way.

Jumkie said:

Its a fair point, and it certainly belongs in this thread. I think a few need to realize this thread is intended for this kind of discussion, while the RIP thread is for remembrance and condolences. As you say, this thread is aptly named. Perhaps these are not discussions that some are ready to handle, in which case I would ask them to stick to the RIP thread, otherwise, discuss it in a measured way. People have opinions and also going to vent regarding particulars, while others will disagree. The exchanges are helpful if done without unraveling into a long drawn out argument.



Regarding your point. In this case, Sadly, I honestly think Marco was instantly killed on impact. Whoever, your point would be of concern if the rider would had sustained injuries that a few extra moments could have saved his life. Again, in this case, I doubt anything could have been done.



Welcome to the forum, please continue to post.

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I also think marco died instantly but there is a valid point here. We saw Kato's head allowed to fall back when infact he had a broken neck. We saw tomi dropped off a stretcher and now marco. Im not blaming anybody because as pov said its the heat of the moment un uneven ground ect but something has to be addressed here. Its just not good enough !

bojuhl said:

Compare this scene to the way an American football player is completely immobilized by professionals before ever being moved at all when there is a upper torso injury. This is completely outrageous and primitive treatment of an individual with upper torso trauma. Regardless of how critical shape he was in. The trauma and vitals stability equipment and personnel should be deployed to the location. We build multimillion dollar facilities and motorcycles and then drag someone off the track in this manner is just unacceptable.



I swear there should be a chopper with a trauma team at the ready sitting in the paddock all weekend long ready to land right on the track with a mobile trauma center.



I'm still emotional over the loss of this young man.

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I agree. I haven't understood why they insist on putting the riders in a stretcher in great haste and running away. Are there no EMT personnel close enough to run to him? Once the red flag is thrown and its safe, I don't see why they don't do exactly as you describe.



Again, in this particular case, I don't think saving his life was possible. But as far as "protocol" putting the guy on the stretcher and running or walking fast seems so counter to accepted first responder practices.

chopperman said:

I also think marco died instantly but there is a valid point here. We saw Kato's head allowed to fall back when infact he had a broken neck. We saw tomi dropped off a stretcher and now marco. Im not blaming anybody because as pov said its the heat of the moment un uneven ground ect but something has to be addressed here. Its just not good enough !

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I disagree about the heat of the moment pass. That is the point, change the protocol because its wrong. I can see this being valid if they were in a war zone, getting the guy to safety and getting the responders out of harms way is the protocol, and safest for all interested parties, but not in this case. There should be no need to run with the guy at racing events negating this "heat of the moment" argument. I doubt the corner workers are being told not to run with the guy, so they are probably doing simply what they were told to do, so from now on, tell them what to do right.



Again, before we get a call not to discuss this, or everybody Kum ba Ya, this is the right thread, or misconstrue what I'm saying, there was nothing that could be done to save Marco's life. The marshalls did what they have been told to do most likely, and they did a good job; the point being made here is, change what they are told to do. EMT personnel to run to the rider and begin their first responder work their without moving the rider.

Jumkie said:

I disagree about the heat of the moment pass. That is the point, change the protocol because its wrong. I can see this being valid if they were in a war zone, getting the guy to safety and getting the responders out of harms way is the protocol, and safest for all interested parties, but not in this case. There should be no need to run with the guy at racing events negating this "heat of the moment" argument. I doubt the corner workers are being told not to run with the guy, so they are probably doing simply what they were told to do, so from now on, tell them what to do right.



Again, before we get a call not to discuss this, or everybody Kum ba Ya, this is the right thread, or misconstrue what I'm saying, there was nothing that could be done to save Marco's life. The marshalls did what they have been told to do most likely, and they did a good job; the point being made here is, change what they are told to do. EMT personnel to run to the rider and begin their first responder work their without moving the rider.

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+1. A golf buggy sort of machine adapted to the purpose would not be expensive. Here's an area where improvement is clearly needed - the past incidents have shown that changes need to be made.

Jumkie said:

I disagree about the heat of the moment pass. That is the point, change the protocol because its wrong. I can see this being valid if they were in a war zone, getting the guy to safety and getting the responders out of harms way is the protocol, and safest for all interested parties, but not in this case. There should be no need to run with the guy at racing events negating this "heat of the moment" argument. I doubt the corner workers are being told not to run with the guy, so they are probably doing simply what they were told to do, so from now on, tell them what to do right.



Again, before we get a call not to discuss this, or everybody Kum ba Ya, this is the right thread, or misconstrue what I'm saying, there was nothing that could be done to save Marco's life. The marshalls did what they have been told to do most likely, and they did a good job; the point being made here is, change what they are told to do. EMT personnel to run to the rider and begin their first responder work their without moving the rider.

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Well what you have just said is exactly what i said after tomi's tragic crash but i was flamed. I was flamed because it was a "live" race. Marcos was red flagged and this still happened so i will repeat what i said then . TRAINING !! No ...... seems to know what the right protocols are ,whether it be throwing out a red flag or the removal of an injured rider. The marshals with the training they have obviously received think only to remove the rider as fast as possible to get him to the med centre. Go back to the tomi thread if you can stomach it (and i wont blame you if you dont compa) and read the arguements posted on this subject then !

chopperman said:

Well what you have just said is exactly what i said after tomi's tragic crash ...

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Well I'll take your word for it and I agree. And I think its fair to discuss it. We usually get important safety improvements after a tragic event, I hope this one is no exception.



I remember Tomi being dropped as you mention, and it made me cringe. Its a wrong protocol, and it need to be the last time we see of it.

Jumkie said:

Well I'll take your word for it and I agree. And I think its fair to discuss it. We usually get important safety improvements after a tragic event, I hope this one is no exception.



I remember Tomi being dropped as you mention, and it made me cringe. Its a wrong protocol, and it need to be the last time we see of it.

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Yes it does need to change but i wouldn't hold your breath. It happened with Kato and that was 2003 ! Before anyone jumps in, i know kato wasn't dropped but he was bundled on a stretcher wrongly possibly causing more injury.

Austin said:

Sounds like he was pestered into talking about tires and electronics. He says what everyone's been saying about the tires and the electronics all season and then goes on to say that neither played any significant role in this accident. Good interview, Italian journalism, in my opinion.

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Corrected for accuracy.

Pigeon said:

The witchhunt Simoncelli endured after the French MotoGP was, looking back on it, deplorable.

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......... Simoncelli caused an accident that injured another rider, by riding recklessly and was rightly punished for it. I have given Sic a hard time publicly, but I have to say since Aragon, he was going about getting his .... together, and NOT being the moron so obviously on display at Le Mans. Le Mans was the best thing that happened to Simoncelli, it made the grown ups come over and give him a good talking to. It took a while, but it was starting to sink in.



As for electronics or tires being a contributing factor, I think that is a bit of a stretch. As someone else said, he was just trying to save the crash. That's what racers do, and why they end up mashing their fingers while trying to hold onto the clutch as they slide into the gravel. That kind of hubris is what differentiates a winner from mere mortals like you and me.



And please, no references to the NFL. If you can't see the difference between playing on an area a few thousand square feet, indoors, on foot, with smooth and easy access to an injured person, and an area of several square miles, out in the open air, with gravel traps and other obstacles for the medical personnel to cross before they reach an injured rider, then you may need to check you've been taking your medication correctly. There are lots of lessons to be learned from this (e.g. sending an ambulance out to a rider instead of moving the rider, but this presents issues of its own), but it helps if you compare like with like.

Kropotkin said:

Corrected for accuracy.

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Kropo, you would be in the position to know or find out, what is the official protocol of handling injured riders? Is there any discussion to let them be where they lie and attend to them there, like they do at other sporting events (well at least the ones I've seen in the US)?

Kropotkin said:

And please, no references to the NFL. If you can't see the difference between playing on an area a few thousand square feet, indoors, on foot, with smooth and easy access to an injured person, and an area of several square miles, out in the open air, with gravel traps and other obstacles for the medical personnel to cross before they reach an injured rider, then you may need to check you've been taking your medication correctly. There are lots of lessons to be learned from this (e.g. sending an ambulance out to a rider instead of moving the rider, but this presents issues of its own), but it helps if you compare like with like.

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Well, aside from the glaring differences in sport, I think the guys who brought it up focused on the point of moving the injured, which is the point. Its not an apples to oranges comparison, but rather the idea of moving the rider when perhaps the best thing is to stabilize and get the correct personnel to the injured.

Jumkie said:

Well, aside from the glaring differences in sport, I think the guys who brought it up focused on the point of moving the injured, which is the point. Its not an apples to oranges comparison, but rather the idea of moving the rider when perhaps the best thing is to stabilize and get the correct personnel to the injured.

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My point was that the massive difference between a racetrack, with bikes going past at high speeds and surrounded by gravel traps, and a football field, with only a very short distance of perfectly smooth grass or astroturf to cross to reach a player, may have an impact on that decision. Paramedics must be with a rider with 30 seconds, ambulances (there are three classes, the most simple class) must be able to reach a rider within 2 minutes. At an NFL game, a vehicle can reach a player within about 10 seconds.



If you'd like to read the rules on medical assistance, here's the rulebook http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/6510002_GP_Regulations-Reglements_GP_7.pdf

You want chapter 5.

Jumkie said:

Well, aside from the glaring differences in sport, I think the guys who brought it up focused on the point of moving the injured, which is the point. Its not an apples to oranges comparison, but rather the idea of moving the rider when perhaps the best thing is to stabilize and get the correct personnel to the injured.

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Exactly. The point is get the necessary equipment and personnel to the rider for stablization procedures. Hell fire they do in World Cup ski races on the side of snow covered mountain.



I have seen ski patrolers drop into double diamond extreme runs with sleds in driving snow storms and stablize neck and back injuries.



"open air, gravel traps....." jesus.

Kropotkin said:

My point was that the massive difference between a racetrack, with bikes going past at high speeds and surrounded by gravel traps, and a football field, with only a very short distance of perfectly smooth grass or astroturf to cross to reach a player, may have an impact on that decision. Paramedics must be with a rider with 30 seconds, ambulances (there are three classes, the most simple class) must be able to reach a rider within 2 minutes. At an NFL game, a vehicle can reach a player within about 10 seconds.



If you'd like to read the rules on medical assistance, here's the rulebook http://www.fim-live....ements_GP_7.pdf

You want chapter 5.

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Thank you for the link. And again, thanks for pointing out the difference in time and obstacle of getting to the injured person in various types of sport settings. However, the time it takes medical personnel to get to a rider or the rider to the personnel seems the issue in regards to what is best. So it seems to me the action taken depends on the severity of the situation. Clearly with Sic or a similar situation, running with him doesn't quite seem the right approach regardless of venue (this is not some war zone). You've already made the point indoor sports have smooth surfaces, that still doesn't address whether getting the personnel there and stabilizing the body is the better thing to do. I suppose that is the point here, to explore this protocol a bit further and examining the ends and outs. And yes, coupled with the aspects of the sport itself.

bojuhl said:

Exactly. The point is get the necessary equipment and personnel to the rider for stablization procedures. Hell fire they do in World Cup ski races on the side of snow covered mountain.



I have seen ski patrolers drop into double diamond extreme runs with sleds in driving snow storms and stablize neck and back injuries.



"open air, gravel traps....." jesus.

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From the rules:





5.3.7.4 Track Ground Posts

These are placed at suitable locations and in sufficient numbers around the circuit

to provide rapid intervention and evacuation of the rider from danger with the

minimum of delay. The personnel must have sufficient training and experience to

take action autonomously and immediately in case of an accident.

Personnel:

• Doctor or paramedic (or equivalent) experienced in emergency care

• Sufficient number of stretcher bearers

Medical Equipment:

• Equipment for initiating resuscitation and emergency treatment

• Cervical collar

• Scoop stretcher

• Technical Equipment:

• Radio communication with race control and the CMO

Adequate shelter for staff and equipment should be available.



They have all they need to stabilize the rider at the ground post. They must be able to reach riders within 30 seconds (running across gravel traps, not as butch as skiiing, obviously).



The real problem is that in such cases, there is much more going on than just spinal injury. The official report on Simoncelli said he had neck and head trauma, as well as chest trauma. They had to drain blood from his lungs in the ambulance. Injuries in motorcycle racing are massively more complex than they are in football, because being hit by a 300lb motorcycle made of steel and traveling at 150 mph is a lot more forceful than being hit by a 300lb defensive end at 20 mph. The DE is wearing padding, too. Even in skiing, the energies are much lower, they may be reaching 70mph, but it's not often they slam into a tree at that speed. Injuries are therefore less complicated.



The problem with motorcycle racing injuries is that the first task of the medical personnel is triage, prioritizing the worst injuries, and often, all of the injuries are life-threatening.

Jumkie said:

Thank you for the link. And again, thanks for pointing out the difference in time and obstacle of getting to the injured person in various types of sport settings. However, the time it takes medical personnel to get to a rider or the rider to the personnel seems the issue in regards to what is best. So it seems to me the action taken depends on the severity of the situation. Clearly with Sic or a similar situation, running with him doesn't quite seem the right approach regardless of venue (this is not some war zone). I suppose that is the point here, to explore this protocol a bit further and examining the ends and outs. And yes, coupled with the aspects of the sport itself.

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Right. My point is that it is good to stabilize the rider, but the situation is in no way comparable to football injuries, at least, not these kind of serious injuries. I actually agree that treating such serious injuries on track is better than running with them across a gravel trap, but that presents a completely different set of problems. Getting help in such situations is complicated.

surely there needs to be a set agenda in accidents or accidents where a rider is unconscious as with Kato.Tomisan and Marco they have been moved by what seemed Marshall's

when unconscious that can easily cause more damage than good



theres been many Red flags in BSB They never take a risk Higgsy etc is MEDICAL STAFF TO THE SCENE AND THEY CONTROL IT FROM THERE