I'd like to see the source of that. I saw Ago on tv last night and he didn't say that. As for tyre comments, a lot of comments were passed by all the ex-racers commenting on italian tv about how many 1st and 2nd lap crashes there have been this season because it seems to be taking longer for tyres to reach good running temp. Blaming the tyre and blaming choice of tyre aren't the same. And anyway this, as seems to be the general consensus, was the tragic result of a bunch of unfortunate coincidences.
Fall out from the loss of Marco Simoncelli
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(first of all: hi there. this is my first post. i've been hanging around here passively for quite a while, and some days ago finally decided to register. wanted to introduce myself properly in the course of yesterday's race thread, just before things turned ..... and 'hey guys, here i am' suddenly seemed inappropriate).
some thoughts on the accident and its aftermath:
my initial thought was also that Rossi would retire. i was watching the race and saw his face after he returned to the pits. then given his season so far, as many have mentioned.. but on the one hand, it's just speculation, and on the other, he's already denied it. i think kropotkin put it best on twitter: if he retired, than only after thinking about it for quite a while and not from an instant emotion.
as for Marco's trajectory towards the inside of the corner: besides the aforementioned Doohan incident at PI, there are numerous other examples. just found a video of Jamie Hacking (http:// www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkYKFZEeEE4 [added space in order to prevent embedding]). and he was riding on AMA level Dunlop tires. so criticism of Bridgestone is somewhat out of place in this regard. I think it's more a combination of whether you lose the front or the rear, at which speed, angle, etc., and the way you hang on to it (and for sure, talent, but not just) defining whether the tire grips again or not.
you cannot fully prevent rollover accidents. I remember Rossi stating after Tomizawa-san's accident that a problem of Moto2 bikes is that they are wider around the engine, so they don't simply slide to the outside but sort of circulate around their own axis. one possibility might be crash pads being mounted at the widest part of the bike body in order to reduce the friction when compared to having the whole fairing hitting the floor. but while it might have saved Tomizawa, it would be no improvement to safety in general, as it might simply increase the likeliness of crashing once the bike gets lost. paradoxically, many accidents are prevented by saving a bike that is actually lost, which is just what led to what we had to witness yesterday. just like neck protection, this is an area where improvements are almost impossible to make, and if you change one element, it would likely lead to increase risks in another aspect (catch the bike and get hit vs. don't be able catch it and crash out inevitably; save the neck vs. allowing movement in order to control the bike).
an aspect regarding safety that is hardly ever mentioned: the track marshals did a below-par job over the course of the weekend. first, they failed to show the flag in Moto2 FP1, resulting in a concussion for Marquez and a broken collarbone for Bradley Smith, while the recovery measures for Marco where just ....: first, it took them ages to arrive at the scene. then, they dropped (!!!) the stretcher he was placed on while running to the ambulance car (while there might be a shot of this on the daily-fkin-mail's hp, this was also reported in an austrian forum by a guy witnessing the scene from the back grandstand). and finally, the ambulance car was parked way off the circuit and when the injured was finally thrown in there, it raced over the bumpy grass with high speed. this is the worst treatment someone with a head injury can receive. it probably didn't matter anymore, given the force of the initial impact, but if so.. ..... i just hope that these issues will be addressed in the 'thorough investigation' which was promised by Paul Butler.
one final thing regarding the criticism towards riders: of course, in tragic moments like this we are reminded that we are only jerks who don't dare to ride a bike like those we criticize. but we are conscious followers of the sport, and when you see someone riding like an ....., bringing others down etc., there is no reason why we shouldn't speak our mind. Simo was one of those riders, and was rightly criticized for his actions in the first half of the season. unfortunately, as some have already mentioned, he really matured as the season progressed. basically the accident yesterday was just and ordinary racing incident, losing the bike while fighting for position. this can happen (and has happen) to everyone in the field. nothing unusual, besides the freakshit that happened afterwards.
anyway, i just hope that if something can be learned from this, the investigation will help to do so, and also to prevent the aforementioned knee-jerk reactions. one small issue that remains is that it's only two weeks till valencia. two weeks surely is too short to investigate everything (it took quite a while back then when Kato-san died), but what happens to the investigation and its findings once the season is over and MotoGP more or less disappears for some months till the new seasons starts, as it usually does?
btw, i think the decision to cancel the test but to race in valencia is the right one. as sad as it is, it must go on.
sewarion
edit: sorry, i didn't want to include the video, just post the link.
edit2: fixed that.
some thoughts on the accident and its aftermath:
my initial thought was also that Rossi would retire. i was watching the race and saw his face after he returned to the pits. then given his season so far, as many have mentioned.. but on the one hand, it's just speculation, and on the other, he's already denied it. i think kropotkin put it best on twitter: if he retired, than only after thinking about it for quite a while and not from an instant emotion.
as for Marco's trajectory towards the inside of the corner: besides the aforementioned Doohan incident at PI, there are numerous other examples. just found a video of Jamie Hacking (http:// www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkYKFZEeEE4 [added space in order to prevent embedding]). and he was riding on AMA level Dunlop tires. so criticism of Bridgestone is somewhat out of place in this regard. I think it's more a combination of whether you lose the front or the rear, at which speed, angle, etc., and the way you hang on to it (and for sure, talent, but not just) defining whether the tire grips again or not.
you cannot fully prevent rollover accidents. I remember Rossi stating after Tomizawa-san's accident that a problem of Moto2 bikes is that they are wider around the engine, so they don't simply slide to the outside but sort of circulate around their own axis. one possibility might be crash pads being mounted at the widest part of the bike body in order to reduce the friction when compared to having the whole fairing hitting the floor. but while it might have saved Tomizawa, it would be no improvement to safety in general, as it might simply increase the likeliness of crashing once the bike gets lost. paradoxically, many accidents are prevented by saving a bike that is actually lost, which is just what led to what we had to witness yesterday. just like neck protection, this is an area where improvements are almost impossible to make, and if you change one element, it would likely lead to increase risks in another aspect (catch the bike and get hit vs. don't be able catch it and crash out inevitably; save the neck vs. allowing movement in order to control the bike).
an aspect regarding safety that is hardly ever mentioned: the track marshals did a below-par job over the course of the weekend. first, they failed to show the flag in Moto2 FP1, resulting in a concussion for Marquez and a broken collarbone for Bradley Smith, while the recovery measures for Marco where just ....: first, it took them ages to arrive at the scene. then, they dropped (!!!) the stretcher he was placed on while running to the ambulance car (while there might be a shot of this on the daily-fkin-mail's hp, this was also reported in an austrian forum by a guy witnessing the scene from the back grandstand). and finally, the ambulance car was parked way off the circuit and when the injured was finally thrown in there, it raced over the bumpy grass with high speed. this is the worst treatment someone with a head injury can receive. it probably didn't matter anymore, given the force of the initial impact, but if so.. ..... i just hope that these issues will be addressed in the 'thorough investigation' which was promised by Paul Butler.
one final thing regarding the criticism towards riders: of course, in tragic moments like this we are reminded that we are only jerks who don't dare to ride a bike like those we criticize. but we are conscious followers of the sport, and when you see someone riding like an ....., bringing others down etc., there is no reason why we shouldn't speak our mind. Simo was one of those riders, and was rightly criticized for his actions in the first half of the season. unfortunately, as some have already mentioned, he really matured as the season progressed. basically the accident yesterday was just and ordinary racing incident, losing the bike while fighting for position. this can happen (and has happen) to everyone in the field. nothing unusual, besides the freakshit that happened afterwards.
anyway, i just hope that if something can be learned from this, the investigation will help to do so, and also to prevent the aforementioned knee-jerk reactions. one small issue that remains is that it's only two weeks till valencia. two weeks surely is too short to investigate everything (it took quite a while back then when Kato-san died), but what happens to the investigation and its findings once the season is over and MotoGP more or less disappears for some months till the new seasons starts, as it usually does?
btw, i think the decision to cancel the test but to race in valencia is the right one. as sad as it is, it must go on.
sewarion
edit: sorry, i didn't want to include the video, just post the link.
edit2: fixed that.
The bitter irony is that marco was working things out week by week, and whether or not open to criticism earlier in the season had ridden smart as well as fast recently, and was a very good chance imo of race wins within a year if given a real full factory honda next year.
Alain Proust's famous statement about ayrton senna was only semi-prophetic, as senna did not actually die from recklessness or even a driving error, but as it eventuated from a mechanical failure. I didn't see the marco incident and don't want to, still being haunted by the indelible memory of the senna and craig jones accidents, and rainey's accident, all of which I did see live, but it sounds as though it involved misadventure rather than anything else.
I have been a critic of the current formula (quite recently) and blamed it for lorenzo and spies being absent from sepang, but this accident would seem very similar to those involving tomizawa and craig jones (which as someone said both involved 600cc bikes and different tyres), and apparently was not due to recklessness but rather to being in the wrong place at the wrong time, as has been said not something that can ever be entirely eliminated from motorsports and from racing fast bikes in particular.
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I do believe he was the only rider to choose the hard rear compound. You could say thats the reason the tire let go, but I still place no blame on what happened with the tire or anything/anyone else.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought sic almost lost it a lap earlier. I'm not sure as I don't really want to go back and watch it again.
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In my mind I can see a potential increase in low sides as a result. You see guys saving it on their knee/elbow quite often, but never with this as the result...shooting back across the track into traffic. I bet many a rider will be re-thinkning when to let the bike go and how long to keep trying to save it. Only one race left this year, so can't say we will have enough time to see this born out.
Maybe the sting will have worn off by next season...maybe not...but you know they HAVE to be thinking about it right now.
Maybe the sting will have worn off by next season...maybe not...but you know they HAVE to be thinking about it right now.
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a bit of fall out for ya
The witchhunt Simoncelli endured after the French MotoGP was, looking back on it, deplorable.
http://plus.autosport.com/free/feature/3972/toby-moody-remembers-marco-simoncelli/
Absolutely Correct Sir well said
The witchhunt Simoncelli endured after the French MotoGP was, looking back on it, deplorable.
http://plus.autosport.com/free/feature/3972/toby-moody-remembers-marco-simoncelli/
Absolutely Correct Sir well said
Does a MotoGP bike need to weigh 150kg? Does it need to have 230hp?
Motorcycle racing seems to follow the basic car racing axiom: If performance is too high, add weight. It's fine for automobiles b/c driver-strikes aren't really a concern, and the safety cage can always be strengthened. Motorcycle racing is much different.
When Tomizawa died, fans and media should have wondered if we would have survived being struck by a 100hp 100kg 250cc 2-stroke. Now that Simoncelli has been killed, I wonder if he would have survived being struck by a 135kg 180hp 500cc 2-stroke.
The formula cannot be written entirely for safety b/c we all understand that pedal-powered bicycles can be lethal. However, I do wonder if more horsepower and more weight is actually a good move. Maybe JB and the MSMA are right about the displacement, but we need Dorna to write fuel rules that don't suck. Maybe B-stone needs to be put on a shorter leash.
I'm not sure, but I have noticed that Superbikes and GP bikes seem to mimic supercars. Every year they get loaded down with more unnecessary options, but every year the manufacturers add more power and more electronics to make them faster. Dangerous precedent for bikes, imo. Tires are a big part of the equation.
It's a sad days for MotoGP fans losing one of the bright star in such a incident.
I learn 2 things from the incident.
1. 4-stroke racing machines could be fatal when impact from behind. Even from the smallest 250cc displacement bike could kill another rider. It's happened to the US teen rider Peter Lenz, then Tomizawa in Moto2 and now to Simoncelli in MotoGP. It's a hope there is an improvement in it's technology or an electronic aid that could kill the traction almost instantly. Or probably a weight adjustment to reduce a hazardous traveling mass.
2. Improvement in rider technique in operating 4-stroke racing motorcycle. We know this incident is unavoidable. But we could learn from it to improve from the rider side to help their crash practices. I got a bad feeling when Rossi crash at southern loop last week where Bautista almost running into his head. Since Rossi let the bike go and have the gravity take over the momentum, it has saved his life from a fatal incident. In Simoncelli case, his innocent determination to hold on to the bike has become the instrument to the incident. It's not to blame anyone in this tragedy. But a new method need to be created to teach a racer when is the right moment to let go the bike to safe their life.
Both subjects is related to each other and I hope the parties involve take a notice on them seriously. Otherwise, these killing machine will continue to find a new victim...
I learn 2 things from the incident.
1. 4-stroke racing machines could be fatal when impact from behind. Even from the smallest 250cc displacement bike could kill another rider. It's happened to the US teen rider Peter Lenz, then Tomizawa in Moto2 and now to Simoncelli in MotoGP. It's a hope there is an improvement in it's technology or an electronic aid that could kill the traction almost instantly. Or probably a weight adjustment to reduce a hazardous traveling mass.
2. Improvement in rider technique in operating 4-stroke racing motorcycle. We know this incident is unavoidable. But we could learn from it to improve from the rider side to help their crash practices. I got a bad feeling when Rossi crash at southern loop last week where Bautista almost running into his head. Since Rossi let the bike go and have the gravity take over the momentum, it has saved his life from a fatal incident. In Simoncelli case, his innocent determination to hold on to the bike has become the instrument to the incident. It's not to blame anyone in this tragedy. But a new method need to be created to teach a racer when is the right moment to let go the bike to safe their life.
Both subjects is related to each other and I hope the parties involve take a notice on them seriously. Otherwise, these killing machine will continue to find a new victim...
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These racers are adrenaline junkies. That's why we love them. Especially guys like Marco who's almost always up there in the pointy end (if not on the middle of the pack). Always pushing hard, and much more in every race.
The problem with the incident is, Simo didn't slide. While it was a low side obviously he managed to save it. - Thats the key word right there. He isn't in the process of a low side crash. He was in the process of saving himself off a low side crash. No one could have predicted what happened next.
The thing I find myself frustrated is on how fast his bike went (cut) into the racing line just after Marco saved the bike.
The problem with the incident is, Simo didn't slide. While it was a low side obviously he managed to save it. - Thats the key word right there. He isn't in the process of a low side crash. He was in the process of saving himself off a low side crash. No one could have predicted what happened next.
The thing I find myself frustrated is on how fast his bike went (cut) into the racing line just after Marco saved the bike.
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Great questions, But I agree I don't think the hair was the issue......Your getting hit a by a motorcycle the impact in in one location and that is what I think happened. Collins hit him in the back and if you watched the vid then Rossi's bike comes and hits him in the back of the head.....ripping the helmet right off and I think to say at this point he was killed......Motogp is just the to ride the best of the best out there so anything less then that I don't think would be justice. I want the fastest bikes out there, the moster that need to be man handled into control, that is racing.......You won't see a dragster with a camry engine just because Horsepower will kill you?? Or Lance Armstrong on a huffy cuz his road bike is to fast for th the Tour De France?? but yet biker have died in that sport too, but that is what your implying with MotoGP. Racing is just that racing , over the years every aspect of racing has had traggic moments in time but it still goes on....that is the sport the way of life the addiction!!.......God Bless all of you and RIP 58 "Super Sic"
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Great post. I do have something more to offer on the highlighted bit due to having lost many far too many mates in the 80s, mostly due to bike accidents, though 2 at Hillsborough.
You will only do something risky when the enjoyment (many aspects to this) outweighs the risks you perceive. When the balance goes the other way, you stop. One of the mates we lost, Grant, was riding with another who had got left behind due to a misfire. He arrived at the scene and Grant died in his arms. He never rode again. Most of us decided that Grant died doing something he loved and carried on riding, including his girlfriend. Mind you, none of us were there. It was then that I "coined" the pithy statement, doubtless down the pub.
Years later I stopped riding in the UK. Just happened. I decided to ship my bike to Oz (where we live part time in SE QLD) and I happily ride it there. Something changed for me - it wasn't due to a death, though many had happened before, just I didn't want to ride on the crowded UK roads anymore. My other half still rides here occasionally, but rides far more in Oz.
Like I said, when the risks outweigh the enjoyment in your mind, something changes and you stop.
BTW, I have never had an accident other than dropping a bike at parking speed, but that's probably because I am slow
Like you said, bring on Valencia and look forward to the tributes an rememberances.
I've been making this point for a while. It's really sad to see people not able to enjoy the sport and the show these guys put on, rather than being obsessed with criticizing A, B or C relentlessly.
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That's twice you've said this recently. It should be obvious that members here all enjoy the sport far enough, and some have the ability to point out many aspects of the sport in the form of praise and criticism, others either cant or choose not to. Look a bit beyond it please.
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Agree. I haven't read what you were talking about, but pointing out the tires taking longer to heat up may be considered a "criticism", I suppose its a valid point, though I personally disagree with the suggestion. No tire in the world, regardless of series will be at optimum temp in the first two laps. For anybody to point out there are many crashes in the opening laps may simply mean that the rider is pressing too much, problem solved. Every component of the bike has limits, and when pressed beyond them, problems will occur. There are riders that almost never suffer opening lap self inflicted crashes, I believe there is a reason for this.
Again, thanks for saying this was a result of a bunch of coincidences. Lke Rog said earlier, I suppose its a coping mechanism for people to seek blame, and in some cases of death, there are things one can point to, but for me, i can hardly think of one.
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The full Ago interview ?
Giacomo Agostini suggests changes to MotoGP tyres after Marco Simoncelli's death
By Michele Lostia and Matt Beer Monday, October 24th 2011, 16:22 GMT
Motorcycle racing legend Giacomo Agostini believes changes to the behaviour of MotoGP tyres could help avoid crashes such as the one that took the life of Marco Simoncelli in yesterday's Malaysian Grand Prix.
Simoncelli died after being struck by Colin Edwards and Valentino Rossi when he lost control of his Gresini Honda on lap two at Sepang. The bike, with Simoncelli still attached, slid up the track on its side and into Edwards and Rossi's path.
Agostini, a 15-time world champion, said that the proliferation of electronic rider aids on modern MotoGP bikes was not a factor, but that there could be a need to look at the nature of MotoGP tyres.
"I think electronics had nothing to do with it yesterday," he told RAI Radio.
"Personally, like many other riders, I don't like electronics very much. I'd prefer the bike to be managed by the rider only and not electronics that drive your wrist.
"Tyres have been blamed too. Sure, tyres get some blame, in the sense that tyres are some of the most important things on a motorcycle. Nowadays, all riders demand the tyre to last from the first to the last lap, with no performance loss.
"The constructors build tyres to accommodate them: they are a bit harder and a bit more difficult to handle. Unfortunately that means that when grip lacks, the tyres just slide off and drop you with no warning.
"Perhaps it would make sense to have different tyres that, from mid-race onwards, they start to degrade. The rider would then have to ride more carefully. This would be a bit like in my times, when from mid-race onwards the tyre was worn so you'd need to ride by using more drifting and by being more careful."
But overall Agostini believes it would not be correct to try and apportion blame for the accident.
"Unfortunately, with yesterday's crash, we can't look for someone to pin the blame on," he said. "It was a crash like many that happen during races and sessions. Yesterday that crash was unfortunately fatal.
"It was fatal also because the bike didn't slide or fall: the rider fell. Together they went on a trajectory whereby, instead of going off the track, they went to the right, and unfortunately the others were coming and there was nothing they could do.
"It's useless to talk about safety and protection because I think in this case there was enough."
He believes current safety measures in MotoGP are more than adequate.
"Back in my times we'd race with a small helmet, with ultra-light overalls that would weigh less than two pounds; the circuits were enclosed by walls, trees and guard rails. Unfortunately that's how it was, it was hopeless, there were many crashes and many of my colleagues passed away.
"Nowadays I'd say big steps forward have been made: the circuits are very safe, they have run-offs, the overalls are safe and the helmets are full face. There's even a riders' air bag by Dainese that protects the back, the shoulder and the head.
"A lot of work is being done for safety, but when two 150-kilo bikes crash into you at 150km/h, unfortunately there's no protection for that."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95654
Giacomo Agostini suggests changes to MotoGP tyres after Marco Simoncelli's death
By Michele Lostia and Matt Beer Monday, October 24th 2011, 16:22 GMT
Simoncelli died after being struck by Colin Edwards and Valentino Rossi when he lost control of his Gresini Honda on lap two at Sepang. The bike, with Simoncelli still attached, slid up the track on its side and into Edwards and Rossi's path.
Agostini, a 15-time world champion, said that the proliferation of electronic rider aids on modern MotoGP bikes was not a factor, but that there could be a need to look at the nature of MotoGP tyres.
"I think electronics had nothing to do with it yesterday," he told RAI Radio.
"Personally, like many other riders, I don't like electronics very much. I'd prefer the bike to be managed by the rider only and not electronics that drive your wrist.
"Tyres have been blamed too. Sure, tyres get some blame, in the sense that tyres are some of the most important things on a motorcycle. Nowadays, all riders demand the tyre to last from the first to the last lap, with no performance loss.
"The constructors build tyres to accommodate them: they are a bit harder and a bit more difficult to handle. Unfortunately that means that when grip lacks, the tyres just slide off and drop you with no warning.
"Perhaps it would make sense to have different tyres that, from mid-race onwards, they start to degrade. The rider would then have to ride more carefully. This would be a bit like in my times, when from mid-race onwards the tyre was worn so you'd need to ride by using more drifting and by being more careful."
But overall Agostini believes it would not be correct to try and apportion blame for the accident.
"Unfortunately, with yesterday's crash, we can't look for someone to pin the blame on," he said. "It was a crash like many that happen during races and sessions. Yesterday that crash was unfortunately fatal.
"It was fatal also because the bike didn't slide or fall: the rider fell. Together they went on a trajectory whereby, instead of going off the track, they went to the right, and unfortunately the others were coming and there was nothing they could do.
"It's useless to talk about safety and protection because I think in this case there was enough."
He believes current safety measures in MotoGP are more than adequate.
"Back in my times we'd race with a small helmet, with ultra-light overalls that would weigh less than two pounds; the circuits were enclosed by walls, trees and guard rails. Unfortunately that's how it was, it was hopeless, there were many crashes and many of my colleagues passed away.
"Nowadays I'd say big steps forward have been made: the circuits are very safe, they have run-offs, the overalls are safe and the helmets are full face. There's even a riders' air bag by Dainese that protects the back, the shoulder and the head.
"A lot of work is being done for safety, but when two 150-kilo bikes crash into you at 150km/h, unfortunately there's no protection for that."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95654
Austin
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Sounds like he was pestered into talking about tires and electronics. He says what everyone's been saying about the tires and the electronics all season and then goes on to say that neither played any significant role in this accident. Good interview, ambitious journalism, in my opinion.
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