Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Casey and the Marshalls
- Thread starter The California Kid
- Start date
Consensual reality is perhaps a difficult thing, to me stoner's bike is pushed by one marshall, and rossi's bike despite initially being in a position underneath stoner's is being pushed ahead of stoner's bike straight away. It may well be that stoner's bike was not re-startable anyway, but his point which I think was a valid one was that they immediately tried to re-start the bloke who had committed the egregious error to cause the incident in the first place in preference to him. You may think this was justified because you think stoner is a prick anyway, but this is not the same as stoner having no cause for complaint, or the marshalls being motivated by safety concerns.
Goat, you may need to see an optometrist as there is clearly 5 seconds when no person has assisted Stoner as all are assisting Rossi (00:14 - 00:19) prior to a single, lone and solitary marshall grabbing the rear of Stoner's bike (00:19). During this period there would seem to be 5 or 6 marshalls assisting Rossi.
Between 00:19 and 00:24 further marshalls arrive from the left of screen, all running to Rossi's Ducati until at 00:24 a second marshall appears to try to push Stoner but quickly retreats (I would suggest because he hears Rossi's bike start up and thinks it was Stoner's bike and that both have their motors running).
Through until 00:29 the camera pans to Rossi working his way through the gravel but clearly shows two marshalls running to assist him get through the gravel before they retreat (never having reached him) as he was by then clear of the gravel and under motor power
At 00:30 there would appear to be three marshalls now trying to assist Stoner, becoming 4 marshalls around 00:34 which at 00:37 becomes one sole marshall pushing Stoner (one having tripped and the other seeming to have given up for any manner of reason) whilst others are standing around or starting to return to their point
Quite simply, if you see that as equal treatment and backing up your photo than that is of course your judgement but it is, IMO totally tainted and blinded by bias.
Now, I do not question the fact that both riders should have received assistance, and both riders did receive assistance but at no stage was Stoner afforded equal assistance that was provided to Rossi by these marshalls who (IMO again) were simply star struck.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Being a volunteer does not make one above reproach. The marshals are essentially fans (trained to do simple tasks) who are allowed to be on the track. My second wife was a corner marshal and believe me - she was no saint. They generally do the best job they can and sometimes they do make a muddle of it.
I do question this, and can understand why stoner did. The guy who took him out through no fault of his own received the majority of the assistance, and the only effective assistance, starting from a position underneath stoner's bike, with the only safety concern being to remove stoner's bike from on top of him, rossi perhaps being not much in danger after that from his position already on the ground, in which case it may not have been unreasonable for at least a few marshalls to try to start stoner's already upright bike rather than giving priority to starting the second bike, if they were to assay re-starting bikes at all. Starstruck is the exactly correct word.
Perhaps in goatboy's and talpa's view valentino through his manifest beauty, strength, goodness and humility deserved the better treatment, justifying their whinging about stoner not realising/acclaiming this.
Michael, my point is that both riders should have received equal levels of treatment (as I believe is your point and was was Stoner's) to return to the track as (IMO) it is not for marshalls to decide who was more culpable and as a result to treat/assist the other rider first.
Any decision as to culpability should not be made at the flag/marshall point itself but by race control who, with very few exceptions, do not have sufficient time to make a decision within the time frame during which marshall action must be taken and thus notify those trackside,
But again, equal treatment is all Stoner asked for and it is an individual view that will be argued for time immemorial based upon our personal views and bias.
As has been said, perhaps they should not try to re-start anyone, and restrict themselves to ensuring rider safety and a rider should be out if he can't re-start on his own as has been the rule in many forms of motorsport . I don't think stoner was asking for anything except equal treatment either, but I can understand him being particularly aggrieved because he thought, not unreasonably imo, that he was the injured party.
I think the marshals main priority is to remove the danger as quickly as possible . Having two bikes and riders in the gravel poses more of a danger than one . Rossi's bike was running so easier to get on the move and out the way than stoner's which was switched off. In fact i would question the marshal for pushing stoner's bike which are notoriously hard to re start for the distance along a live track that he did.
Also , while stoner's bike was indeed on top of Rossi's, once it was lifted off Rossi's bike was in front of stoner's so blocking its path to be bump started. It would of meant pushing Stoner's bike around Rossi's so further away from the tracks edge posing a larger danger to on coming riders.
You guys have to remember that these crashes arent like a organized event - these marshalls are running through foot deep gravel to try and help some guy up, and when it all happens in just a couple of seconds, it would be quite easy for everyone to coincidentally go to one bike instead of the other. Its racing, and usually volunteer help, you cant expect much.
Joined Jan 2011
3K Posts | 152+
The North!
The marshals do a fantastic job!
Sometimes they don't get it 100% right.
But lets face it without them we would all be screwed!!!!
No marshals = no racing!
Sometimes they don't get it 100% right.
But lets face it without them we would all be screwed!!!!
No marshals = no racing!
+1
.........and after this years efforts, it should be taken very definately into account by Stoner, and everyone else, that the Rossi incident occured at a Spanish circuit, and was tended to by Spanish marshals.
I find it difficult to see how they (the marshals) got Dorna's instructions to "make sure you help any Spanish rider sponsored by Repsol or on a Honda first, then any Spanish rider, then any Repsol sponsored rider" so wrong !.......I mean, the Ducati's red....and they had to pick a Repsol bike up to get to it !
Maybe they were just trying to clear the red thing from the path of the Repsol machine.
One thing's for sure, the governing body sure sets the example of how to run an event at it's home races.........
No bias, fear or favour shown, fully living up to the high standards set by Dorna .....as per their handling of decisions regarding rules and penalties.
.........and after this years efforts, it should be taken very definately into account by Stoner, and everyone else, that the Rossi incident occured at a Spanish circuit, and was tended to by Spanish marshals.
I find it difficult to see how they (the marshals) got Dorna's instructions to "make sure you help any Spanish rider sponsored by Repsol or on a Honda first, then any Spanish rider, then any Repsol sponsored rider" so wrong !.......I mean, the Ducati's red....and they had to pick a Repsol bike up to get to it !
Maybe they were just trying to clear the red thing from the path of the Repsol machine.
One thing's for sure, the governing body sure sets the example of how to run an event at it's home races.........
No bias, fear or favour shown, fully living up to the high standards set by Dorna .....as per their handling of decisions regarding rules and penalties.
But Rog, that was not the point.
The point of the video is to show some people in the forum that more marshalls attended to one bike over the other. Would you agree or disagree that the video seems to back up the story that one rider received additional assistance (I do not arugue who got assisted first or second, just equal)?
Additionally it must be remembered that it was this incident that showed just how difficult it was to bump start the Honda so it is misnomer to assume that the marshall knew this at the time and should not have continued (given and by comparison the effort used for other fallers), although I do not believe marshalls should be responsible for restarting riders.
IMO and I have stated before, a marshalls job should go no further than removing the motorcycle to the marshall point, it should not include any effort to restart the motorcycle (short of lifting it upright).
Absolutely Red, without the marshall's a race meeting cannot start (officially) and is not sanctioned or insured (in Australia).
In most cases I agree that the marshalls do a fantastic job working in tough conditions as they cannot clock off if it rains or is freezing cold or is excessively hot, they have to do their thing.
But, if and when they mess up then (IMO) the system that allowed the mess up needs to be looked at and if a marshall becomes fixated on one thing, they often will miss a second crucial component. As a direct example I have seen a marshall at Phillip Island completely miss oil leaking from teh enging of an R6 Yamaha because she was listening in to teh report of an accident at the corner prior and was getting her green flag ready.
The result, 7 bikes crashing on the oil at Honda corner with a further 3 crashing through uintil the Hayshed where the problem bike finally pulled off the circuit.
The point being that as a marshall you need to keep an eye out at all times and be aware of your surroundings (all very easily to say I might add) and (IMO) these guys just lost that a little and became fixated.
I swear some of you guys treat say going to a race as ..... going to church ....... you just want to worship anything that moves.
Thats what I'm getting from Cali Kid anyway.
It is our religon, and powerslide is a place of worship, attending a race is our pilgramage and like in every religon there are opposing arguments within like the sunni and the shiite or evangelical cristians and the catholics. The only differance is we get to physically see our idols.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
It is our religon, and powerslide is a place of worship, attending a race is our pilgramage and like in every religon there are opposing arguments within like the sunni and the shiite or evangelical cristians and the catholics. The only differance is we get to physically see our idols.
Amen brotha.
BM practices rituals with animals.
Again, muddying the waters. The issue is not whether they could have re-started his bike (it looks like they couldn't have anyway, as I have already said, but as garry says they didn't know that) or that the marshalls aren't vital or don't do a good job in general but his claim that the marshalls showed favouritism whilst not acting in their actual role of ensuring safety, further pissing him off as it would have done most riders in an incident where despite your best efforts to make him the at fault rider he was about as much at fault as lorenzo was at assen.
It is our religon, and powerslide is a place of worship, attending a race is our pilgramage and like in every religon there are opposing arguments within like the sunni and the shiite or evangelical cristians and the catholics. The only differance is we get to physically see our idols.
I don't think your post which opened the thread required any divine revelation though, it was self evidently true ie marshalls showed favouritism while going outside their role at jerez and stoner had cause for complaint, and the marshalls acted to ensure safety at sachsenring and stoner had no cause for complaint and was churlish to complain.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
I swear some of you guys treat say going to a race as ..... going to church ....... you just want to worship anything that moves.
Thats what I'm getting from Cali Kid anyway.
Why do people go to museums to see the original when they can just buy a nice reproduction?
Moreover anyone who's read the work of Joseph Campbell understands mankind's need for heroes
and the value of fellowship and sharing of bonds and common social values and generally hangin' with the tribe.
Me... I'm not really big on going to church. So the track is an excellent substitute.
Men have been gathering around an open fire since the dawn of time. Some things are so intrinsically male
that they never really change.
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