Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Not for lack of trying.This assertion is based on what? Your omniscience I guess? Certainly this secret deal didn't work that well in 2006, did it?
Can Ducati get two wins in 2016??
- Thread starter WVMotoGP99
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Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
2007 was a case of Stoner showing full well what the Bridgestone/Ducati combo could do.
If Casey was still on the LCR, who likely wins the title that year?
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Joined Oct 2008
6K Posts | 5K+
In Cider
Don't know... Maybe Nicky Hayden.
The guy who finished 2nd to Stoner: Dani Pedrosa.
SNS tyres were abolished for 2007, as you know. Michelin it would seem adapted to this less well than Bridgestone for whom it had not been logistically possible in the main to produce tailor made tyres on a race week-end. Michelin riders still did finish 2nd and 3rd however.
As far as I know there is not much factual out there about how the SNS tyre thing worked, but as I understood it tyres were produced with input from data from the race weekend to suit the track conditions. I have never seen anything to suggest multiple variants for different riders but also don't recall any contemporary complaint that they favoured Rossi, although Jumkie has produced a quote from some time later from one of Rossi's competitors. I do recall talk that Michelin was moving towards suiting Honda and Pedrosa more than Rossi.
As I have said many times, I don't think Rossi, who rode very well in 2007, or anyone else however well they rode a Yamaha could beat a 2007 Ducati ridden as Stoner rode his Ducati on the Bridgestones co-developed with that bike. All evidence suggests that riding the bike like Casey was not easily accomplished however.
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So, with all the talk of rule impositions that favoured one rider over another, or DORNA changes that favoured rider X over rider Y and how we should now judge rider X there does seem to be one that we have overlooked.
Let us not forget that at seasons end 2012 a specific rule was removed that then allowed a rookie rider to receive an immediate factory ride. That rider than (it could be said) vindicated that rule change and won the World Championship at first attempt.
What would we be talking about IF (that word again) the rookie rule was still in place?
Just throwing more chatter topics out there
Let us not forget that at seasons end 2012 a specific rule was removed that then allowed a rookie rider to receive an immediate factory ride. That rider than (it could be said) vindicated that rule change and won the World Championship at first attempt.
What would we be talking about IF (that word again) the rookie rule was still in place?
Just throwing more chatter topics out there
Joined Sep 2007
2K Posts | 60+
here
Krop reported the RUMOUR that Yam's racing division needed to be persuaded by their marketing division. He didn't report that Ezpeleta intervened (which was the point I was arguing with Jum before you jumped in). As Furusawa said, Masahiko Nakajima was convinced he was happier dealing with JL over VR until JL did the dirty on him and talked to HRC in early 2012. Then all bets were off. Nakajima is President of Yam's racing division...
Rossi left in 2010 because Yam wouldn't give him No.1 status and pay him more than JL. The grass turned out not to be greener and he returned for less money and No,2 status. Yam didn't get the option to keep him for 2011 & 12 (so your point it moot) on the cash & status they offered in 2010 because VR left - the fact that they were willing to dump him (this part of your point is corect) came when they didn't change their offer...
There is no evidence that Ezpeleta needed to force anyones hand for Rossi to return to Yamaha. Even if Nakajima wasn't keen even after JL betraying him with HRC, he obviously decided for whatever reason that actually dealing with VR was not that bad. Maybe Yam's Marketing division needed to persuade him, maybe they didn't. It's all rumour - no quotes or hard facts.
About those yellow blinders you accuse me of wearing - me thinks you & Jum have some type of blinders of your own, given how selective you are with quotes etc.
Joined Sep 2007
2K Posts | 60+
here
Nope, the flawed thinking is all yours. Jumkie was talking about VRs 2016 race results being asterisked because VR should have had his license suspended. A 1 race ban would not have affected his 2016 results.
I know that a 1 race ban has precedent hence I pointed out examples, but it would only have affected 2015, not 2016. If you argue replies to your own posts, not those of others, you might understand what the argument was
See above - I never argued that VR should or should not have had a 1 race ban.
I have listed these three as incidents where VR was at fault. I'm still waiting for your more comprehensive list which is essential if VR is to live up to the name of the dirtiest WC that you have ascribed to him.
Are we talking Argentina or Sepang here? In either case, what is it about the move "that has been never seen in grand prix motorcycle racing". I call hyperbole without evidence. Saying "I think VR intended X and no one else has ever intended that" is not evidence. You said that Karel Hanika's crash was not as bad as the VR-MM Sepang incident despite the fact that Hanika said he intended to hurt the other rider. Blinders, much?
......... Have you ever seen Doohan pull his punches? (Irony intended
)
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Krop reported the RUMOUR that Yam's racing division needed to be persuaded by their marketing division. He didn't report that Ezpeleta intervened (which was the point I was arguing with Jum before you jumped in). As Furusawa said, Masahiko Nakajima was convinced he was happier dealing with JL over VR until JL did the dirty on him and talked to HRC in early 2012. Then all bets were off. Nakajima is President of Yam's racing division...
Rossi left in 2010 because Yam wouldn't give him No.1 status and pay him more than JL. The grass turned out not to be greener and he returned for less money and No,2 status. Yam didn't get the option to keep him for 2011 & 12 (so your point it moot) on the cash & status they offered in 2010 because VR left - the fact that they were willing to dump him (this part of your point is corect) came when they didn't change their offer...
There is no evidence that Ezpeleta needed to force anyones hand for Rossi to return to Yamaha. Even if Nakajima wasn't keen even after JL betraying him with HRC, he obviously decided for whatever reason that actually dealing with VR was not that bad. Maybe Yam's Marketing division needed to persuade him, maybe they didn't. It's all rumour - no quotes or hard facts.
About those yellow blinders you accuse me of wearing - me thinks you & Jum have some type of blinders of your own, given how selective you are with quotes etc.
Actually, Kropo never stated that it was a rumor anywhere in his report.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Nope, the flawed thinking is all yours. Jumkie was talking about VRs 2016 race results being asterisked because VR should have had his license suspended. A 1 race ban would not have affected his 2016 results.
I know that a 1 race ban has precedent hence I pointed out examples, but it would only have affected 2015, not 2016. If you argue replies to your own posts, not those of others, you might understand what the argument was
See above - I never argued that VR should or should not have had a 1 race ban.
I have listed these three as incidents where VR was at fault. I'm still waiting for your more comprehensive list which is essential if VR is to live up to the name of the dirtiest WC that you have ascribed to him.
Are we talking Argentina or Sepang here? In either case, what is it about the move "that has been never seen in grand prix motorcycle racing". I call hyperbole without evidence. Saying "I think VR intended X and no one else has ever intended that" is not evidence. You said that Karel Hanika's crash was not as bad as the VR-MM Sepang incident despite the fact that Hanika said he intended to hurt the other rider. Blinders, much?
......... Have you ever seen Doohan pull his punches? (Irony intended
I've already mentioned several incidents, all of which were never seen from any other MotoGP world champion.
In fact, Schwantz and Rainey who hated each other never even punted the other off of a bike on the circuit. They at least had respect for each other. Rossi didn't even have enough respect of MM to avoid doing something to him.
Maybe you can point out to me any premier class champion who punted another rider off a bike in a MotoGP world championship race?
Doohan pulled punches with Rossi as did everyone else. The only people who didn't pull punches were Stoner and Lorenzo. Everyone else was busy apologizing and making excuses for Rossi.
Krop reported the RUMOUR that Yam's racing division needed to be persuaded by their marketing division. He didn't report that Ezpeleta intervened (which was the point I was arguing with Jum before you jumped in). As Furusawa said, Masahiko Nakajima was convinced he was happier dealing with JL over VR until JL did the dirty on him and talked to HRC in early 2012. Then all bets were off. Nakajima is President of Yam's racing division...
Rossi left in 2010 because Yam wouldn't give him No.1 status and pay him more than JL. The grass turned out not to be greener and he returned for less money and No,2 status. Yam didn't get the option to keep him for 2011 & 12 (so your point it moot) on the cash & status they offered in 2010 because VR left - the fact that they were willing to dump him (this part of your point is corect) came when they didn't change their offer...
There is no evidence that Ezpeleta needed to force anyones hand for Rossi to return to Yamaha. Even if Nakajima wasn't keen even after JL betraying him with HRC, he obviously decided for whatever reason that actually dealing with VR was not that bad. Maybe Yam's Marketing division needed to persuade him, maybe they didn't. It's all rumour - no quotes or hard facts.
About those yellow blinders you accuse me of wearing - me thinks you & Jum have some type of blinders of your own, given how selective you are with quotes etc.
There was the quote from Carmelo during 2012 to the effect that VR would be on a competitive bike in 2013, and Jumkie is correct that in 2013 there were only ever going to be 4 such bikes.
Actually anyone in the racing division who didn't want VR was probably in need of alternative employment himself/themselves. The alternative candidate was the younger asparagus brother who then and now I do not believe was a top echelon rider, nor likely to contribute to development. I doubt that anyone else would have been as good as him this year either. I think he would have to deteriorate for even Iannone and Vinales to be better than him in 2016. A fit Pedrosa might be interesting on a Yamaha.
Joined Sep 2007
2K Posts | 60+
here
FFS, can you not read & understand? Does a writer need to preface a statement with "this is a rumour" for you to understand that it is one? From your link:
motomatters said:
Note the bold bits. It's not rocket science. There is no evidence there, just some hearsay on "reports" of what might have been said, together with Krop's thoughts, ie RUMOUR. Krop even clarifies that it's not fact with the words "Whatever the truth of the matter" explaining that he has no idea what the actual truth is....
Furusawa's direct quotes from SBP carry more weight, but at the end of the day there is no smoking gun, No evidence that Ezpeleta persuaded anyone within Yamaha Racing to take VR back, or even spoke to them.
Anyway, this is Jumkies argument, let him answer it. Why not answer the question I asked of you?
Joined Oct 2008
6K Posts | 5K+
In Cider
I'll admit that I've joined this thread late, but if I can add something:
In the (I believe) Sepang thread, Keshav stated he was pretty sure that Marquez was deliberately impeding Rossi in the race. I countered with the argument that I didn't believe so and said something to the effect that there was no proof. What stuck with me was when Keshav said:
"If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck"
So, when it involves Marquez...it's a cut and dried case in the trail of public opinion because they 'believe' Marquez had ill intentions. However, regarding Rossi's move back to Yamaha when it is practically impossible that there wasn't SOME influence by Carmelo or other influential figures, that the "If it walks talks and looks like a duck, then it's a duck" analogy is quickly cast aside in the demand for "Evidence"...evidence which the same people don't seem to require when it comes to persecuting any other rider who's name isn't Valentino Rossi.
Just my 2c.
In the (I believe) Sepang thread, Keshav stated he was pretty sure that Marquez was deliberately impeding Rossi in the race. I countered with the argument that I didn't believe so and said something to the effect that there was no proof. What stuck with me was when Keshav said:
"If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck"
So, when it involves Marquez...it's a cut and dried case in the trail of public opinion because they 'believe' Marquez had ill intentions. However, regarding Rossi's move back to Yamaha when it is practically impossible that there wasn't SOME influence by Carmelo or other influential figures, that the "If it walks talks and looks like a duck, then it's a duck" analogy is quickly cast aside in the demand for "Evidence"...evidence which the same people don't seem to require when it comes to persecuting any other rider who's name isn't Valentino Rossi.
Just my 2c.
Joined Sep 2007
2K Posts | 60+
here
Nope, you've added only Hayden 2010 PI to the list I created. There is nothing out there on the net that I can find about controversy wrt that race and you have provided nothing. I haven't the time to watch all VR's 14 years of top class races looking for whatever it is you think you see.
Assen?
Punted implies deliberately caused to crash, so IMHO VR has never done this. The nearest he came was in the corkscrew in LS 2008 where if CS hadn't taken avoiding action, VR would have creamed him, This is the most dangerous (but probably unintentional) VR move I can recall. The list I already created covers this and other incidents and blame.
At Jerez 2005 SG went off track but regained it regardless of the deliberate move involved. Same for JL in Jerez when MM punted him in 2013. You think that Argentina and Sepang 2015 are examples of where VR punted MM. I've argued against both, and that's just your word against mine, though the video evidence supports one side far more than the other, plus no-one else espouses your POV.
In your mind only. - you are making statements that do not tie up with the reality of Doohan's life in the public eye. Doohan was anything but afraid when Criville was his teammate and more than happy to standup to HRC. WTF would he care about upsetting VR? Just because he does not vilify VR he must be some kind of apololgist shows how deeply you are affected by this.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
It's nice to be omniscient, uh, -- always right, and don't have to prove anything.
If my good homies Yamaka46 & J4rn0 applied a tenth of the same standard to convict and execute Marquez on Rossi, we'd have us a public beheading.
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