Can Ducati get two wins in 2016??

JPSLotus · Jan 1, 2016

michaelm said:
This is a different argument, into which Schumacher, Proust and Senna can be brought if you want to draw parallels with different sports, and I don't know much about baseball but I don't think there is much dispute that Rose was a fantastic baseballer or that his actual records were obtained by illicit means. Mick Doohan once deliberately caused a crash with Alex Criville as well for that matter, albeit in rather different circumstances.

I am happy to have most of what I ever argued vindicated imo at least, which was largely against negative contentions about riders other than Rossi. If you want to argue VR's character is not up to that of Rainey that is fine, and I would agree with you, but VR still won all those races and titles substantially on the basis of talent and application of that talent. J4rn0 is also correct that whatever you and I think he will won't be judged harshly by posterity. I am sure we both also recognise there is absolutely no chance of the sport under its current management, or any future management imo, classifying VR as baseball did Pete Rose.

The reason I mention Pete Rose is because that was a guy, who in spite of all of his on-field achievements did something so unsavory, that he was banned from the game. VR has done things time and time again, the most recent of which should have given him a multi-race ban because of the nature of the incident. He was not, and he was allowed to participate in the grand prix, albeit with a back of grid start which didn't really mean .....

Senna/Prost/Schumacher are interesting studies. Prost though, his biggest issue was Suzuka 1989 where he turned in on Senna early going into the Casio Chicane. There was little else I can recall him doing that was dirty. Senna and Schumacher have a whole trail of wreckage through their respective careers. I still will scream about what Schumacher did years later, and his being a vegetable will never get me to back off my assessments on him. Don't you find it interesting though how Schumacher and Rossi both have 7 world championships in the top class of the sports they competed/compete in, and both happened to receive all sorts of benefits from those running the sport? In addition to them both being the dirtiest racers ever in their sports. Senna was no angel either, and once you get past the Saint Senna myth, you see a guy who directly influenced Michael Schumacher. Schumacher was a Senna fan, and he watched everything Senna did on track, and then emulated it in his own ways, and went well beyond what Senna did. That's why I was so vocal about why Rossi needed to be truly punished, because this stuff tends to trickle down to new generations.

I'm not disputing that he has won races along with titles. While you can't take away those records, much in the way you cannot take away the homerun records achieved by steroid users, the records are suspect for a number of reasons which we have discussed many times. Sure he beats every rider based purely on the numbers, but in terms of talent, he's nowhere near this demi-god of riding ability. In fact I wouldn't even list him in the top 5 of talent in grand prix motorcycle racing historically speaking. You may not agree with me on that, and it is fine.

Yes, posterity is going to look down favorably upon VR no matter what. But just because that is the case doesn't mean we have to follow what the majority believes...because after all the majority seemed to think punting MM at Sepang was perfectly acceptable behavior. The journalists and pundits are going to write endless fawning pieces about the supposed greatness of VR, and there will be little critical analysis even levied in his general direction. It's going to become "accepted fact" that he was the greatest of them all...and he will get mentioned along with all the legends, who while hard racers, never did the amount of dirty things VR did. The worst thing is going to be the endless parading of VR by Yamaha marketing even in retirement, which is just going to feed the false myth.

Bern1 · Jan 1, 2016

JPSLotus said:
Rossi doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence as Kenny Roberts or Wayne Rainey.

Did either of them punt riders intentionally, multiple times? Just that alone should disqualify him from being in the same sentence.

I don't give a .... what his stats are, Looking at the overall picture of his career and that has to include the unsavory stuff on and off track, he's not worthy of being lumped in with the legends at all.

He may be a great purely on numbers, but he's not a great when all facets are considered.

Before anyone cries, he's talented yes. He has a number of premier class titles. But that's only part of the overall picture.

This exactly. Watching this sport for a long time and as far as I can remember never saw Lawson or Rainey run anybody off the track on purpose.

This seems to be a fairly modern and thankfully rare phenomenon in racing, beginning with Senna, who believed god was on his side. For the exact same reason, neither Senna nor Schumacher belong in the gallery of greats like Fangio, Clark, Stewart, etc.

michaelm · Jan 1, 2016

JPSLotus said:
The reason I mention Pete Rose is because that was a guy, who in spite of all of his on-field achievements did something so unsavory, that he was banned from the game. VR has done things time and time again, the most recent of which should have given him a multi-race ban because of the nature of the incident. He was not, and he was allowed to participate in the grand prix, albeit with a back of grid start which didn't really mean .....

Senna/Prost/Schumacher are interesting studies. Prost though, his biggest issue was Suzuka 1989 where he turned in on Senna early going into the Casio Chicane. There was little else I can recall him doing that was dirty. Senna and Schumacher have a whole trail of wreckage through their respective careers. I still will scream about what Schumacher did years later, and his being a vegetable will never get me to back off my assessments on him. Don't you find it interesting though how Schumacher and Rossi both have 7 world championships in the top class of the sports they competed/compete in, and both happened to receive all sorts of benefits from those running the sport? In addition to them both being the dirtiest racers ever in their sports. Senna was no angel either, and once you get past the Saint Senna myth, you see a guy who directly influenced Michael Schumacher. Schumacher was a Senna fan, and he watched everything Senna did on track, and then emulated it in his own ways, and went well beyond what Senna did. That's why I was so vocal about why Rossi needed to be truly punished, because this stuff tends to trickle down to new generations.

I'm not disputing that he has won races along with titles. While you can't take away those records, much in the way you cannot take away the homerun records achieved by steroid users, the records are suspect for a number of reasons which we have discussed many times. Sure he beats every rider based purely on the numbers, but in terms of talent, he's nowhere near this demi-god of riding ability. In fact I wouldn't even list him in the top 5 of talent in grand prix motorcycle racing historically speaking. You may not agree with me on that, and it is fine.

Yes, posterity is going to look down favorably upon VR no matter what. But just because that is the case doesn't mean we have to follow what the majority believes...because after all the majority seemed to think punting MM at Sepang was perfectly acceptable behavior. The journalists and pundits are going to write endless fawning pieces about the supposed greatness of VR, and there will be little critical analysis even levied in his general direction. It's going to become "accepted fact" that he was the greatest of them all...and he will get mentioned along with all the legends, who while hard racers, never did the amount of dirty things VR did. The worst thing is going to be the endless parading of VR by Yamaha marketing even in retirement, which is just going to feed the false myth.

I actually probably challenge you for fervour as a Stoner fan, and you perhaps underestimate my anger in regard to how Stoner was treated during his premier class career, for which as I have said in several posts I now allocate significant blame to Rossi himself as well as the crazy element among his fans.

I do see considerable irony given recent VR outbursts that Stoner's reputation as a whinger/whiner rests substantially on a 1 liner in parc ferme not necessarily even intended to be public, and a 1 liner and a slow handclap after incidents in which he alone avoided being torpedoed by VR after a riding error by VR, and after he was actually torpedoed by VR after no error of his own, respectively.

Jumkie · Jan 1, 2016

JPSLotus said:
The reason I mention Pete Rose is because that was a guy, who in spite of all of his on-field achievements did something so unsavory, that he was banned from the game. VR has done things time and time again, the most recent of which should have given him a multi-race ban because of the nature of the incident. He was not, and he was allowed to participate in the grand prix, albeit with a back of grid start which didn't really mean .....

Senna/Prost/Schumacher are interesting studies. Prost though, his biggest issue was Suzuka 1989 where he turned in on Senna early going into the Casio Chicane. There was little else I can recall him doing that was dirty. Senna and Schumacher have a whole trail of wreckage through their respective careers. I still will scream about what Schumacher did years later, and his being a vegetable will never get me to back off my assessments on him. Don't you find it interesting though how Schumacher and Rossi both have 7 world championships in the top class of the sports they competed/compete in, and both happened to receive all sorts of benefits from those running the sport? In addition to them both being the dirtiest racers ever in their sports. Senna was no angel either, and once you get past the Saint Senna myth, you see a guy who directly influenced Michael Schumacher. Schumacher was a Senna fan, and he watched everything Senna did on track, and then emulated it in his own ways, and went well beyond what Senna did. That's why I was so vocal about why Rossi needed to be truly punished, because this stuff tends to trickle down to new generations.

I'm not disputing that he has won races along with titles. While you can't take away those records, much in the way you cannot take away the homerun records achieved by steroid users, the records are suspect for a number of reasons which we have discussed many times. Sure he beats every rider based purely on the numbers, but in terms of talent, he's nowhere near this demi-god of riding ability. In fact I wouldn't even list him in the top 5 of talent in grand prix motorcycle racing historically speaking. You may not agree with me on that, and it is fine.

Yes, posterity is going to look down favorably upon VR no matter what. But just because that is the case doesn't mean we have to follow what the majority believes...because after all the majority seemed to think punting MM at Sepang was perfectly acceptable behavior. The journalists and pundits are going to write endless fawning pieces about the supposed greatness of VR, and there will be little critical analysis even levied in his general direction. It's going to become "accepted fact" that he was the greatest of them all...and he will get mentioned along with all the legends, who while hard racers, never did the amount of dirty things VR did. The worst thing is going to be the endless parading of VR by Yamaha marketing even in retirement, which is just going to feed the false myth.

Excellent post.

The Yamaha bit bothers me because Yamaha make it a point to honor their champions who retire on their brand. Personally I get the sense Yamaha as a brand are more admirable, tolerant, humble than Honda, yet both brands became weary of Rossi’s antics and diva demands. In the end both brands were thrown under the bus too. Considering Yamaha racing didn't want VR back but were coerced by Dorna's insistance and an opportunistic ear from the marketing department is a smack in the face. Rossi will line up next to Lawson and Rainey in the Day of Champions which bothers me. Rossi has achieved much through manipulation unlike the pure racing for position as other great champions, this is what sets VR apart.

Along the lines of the Pete Rose analogy, I'm in agreement with his deserving ban of the sport. Just like Rossi deserved at very least a suspended license. However I believe Rose deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, along with mention that he was banned in disgrace along side all his fantastic accomplishments for violation of the sport's rules against gambling. Rossi deserves to be in the Hall of Fame too, for his accomplishments that can't be directly traced to equipment doping, those should also be footnoted, every win and title he got on SNS should be labeled with an *.

*win and subsequent title during this season achieved on better tires than his competitors similar to equipment doping.

His wins after 2012 should also be labeled with an *.

*wins during these years achieved based on Carmelo Ezpeleta, chief officer of GP marketing and promotion, acting as his personal sport agent.

His results in 2016 should also be labeled with an *.

* any results from this season were achieved because he was allowed to compete after crashing out a rider, which normally would see a race license suspended.

Then a ledger display, color coordinating in neon Yellow all results achieved by: SNS, Carmelo as his sport agent, and the 2016 license waiver.

JPSLotus · Jan 1, 2016

michaelm said:
I actually probably challenge you for fervour as a Stoner fan, and you perhaps underestimate my anger in regard to how Stoner was treated during his premier class career, for which as I have said in several posts I now allocate significant blame to Rossi himself as well as the crazy element among his fans.

I do see considerable irony given recent VR outbursts that Stoner's reputation as a whinger/whines rests substantially on a 1 liner in parc ferme not necessarily even intended to be public, and a 1 liner and a slow handclap after incidents in which he alone avoided being torpedoed by VR after a riding error by VR, and after he was actually torpedoed by VR after no error of his own, respectively.

I believe in spite of what Casey said, VR was the main impetus for retiring in 2012. Yeah there was all the other .... he did not like about modern GP, but VR's presence had more to do with the state of modern GP than anything else. 100% agreement though about Stoner's overall treatment being a result of Rossi and his moron brigade of fans. I have a lot of ire for his fans obviously because I view them as little more than a low-class breed of humans that exhibit little to no intelligence, and worship a guy who if he was not racing motorcycles, would be a snake oil salesman.

The "whining" of Stoner has been so vastly overblown. I never have taken the accusations of it seriously. He got painted a whiner by VR's toxic fanbase and the media. They are all .... for brains.

JPSLotus · Jan 1, 2016

Jumkie said:
Excellent post.

The Yamaha bit bothers me because Yamaha make it a point to honor their champions who retire on their brand. Personally I get the sense Yamaha as a brand are more admirable, tolerant, humble than Honda, yet both brands became weary of Rossi’s antics and diva demands. In the end both brands were thrown under the bus too. Considering Yamaha racing didn't want VR back but were coerced by Dorna's insistance and an opportunistic ear from the marketing department is a smack in the face. Rossi will line up next to Lawson and Rainey in the Day of Champions which bothers me. Rossi has achieved much through manipulation unlike the pure racing for position as other great champions, this is what sets VR apart.

Along the lines of the Pete Rose analogy, I'm in agreement with his deserving ban of the sport. Just like Rossi deserved at very least a suspended license. However I believe Rose deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, along with mention that he was banned in disgrace along side all his fantastic accomplishments for violation of the sport's rules against gambling. Rossi deserves to be in the Hall of Fame too, for his accomplishments that can't be directly traced to equipment doping, those should also be footnoted, every win and title he got on SNS should be labeled with an *.

*win and subsequent title during this season achieved on better tires than his competitors similar to equipment doping.

His wins after 2012 should also be labeled with an *.

*wins during these years achieved based on Carmelo Ezpeleta, chief officer of GP marketing and promotion, acting as his personal sport agent.

His results in 2016 should also be labeled with an *.

* any results from this season were achieved because he was allowed to compete after crashing out a rider, which normally would see a race license suspended.

Then a ledger display, color coordinating in neon Yellow all results achieved by: SNS, Carmelo as his sport agent, and the 2016 license waiver.

Fully agreed.

If you are being given equipment purposely that is specially made for you, and intended to be better than anything the rest of the field has because of machinations, how is that even fair? Having a better built bike is no big deal, but when tires are supposed to be "equal" and they aren't because one rider is given a superior tire, that's farcical. It's race-rigging actually.

Sad thing of this all, is that Rossi should at this point have been finishing out his career on a satellite backmarker like Loris Capirossi, or any other number of riders had to, and the Carmelo/Yamaha marketing ........ prevented what would have been a natural relegation towards the back of the grid.

#22 · Jan 1, 2016

JPSLotus said:
I believe in spite of what Casey said, VR was the main impetus for retiring in 2012. Yeah there was all the other .... he did not like about modern GP, but VR's presence had more to do with the state of modern GP than anything else. 100% agreement though about Stoner's overall treatment being a result of Rossi and his moron brigade of fans. I have a lot of ire for his fans obviously because I view them as little more than a low-class breed of humans that exhibit little to no intelligence, and worship a guy who if he was not racing motorcycles, would be a snake oil salesman.

The "whining" of Stoner has been so vastly overblown. I never have taken the accusations of it seriously. He got painted a whiner by VR's toxic fanbase and the media. They are all .... for brains.

I do wonder how much the tyre change late in the day of the 2012 pre-season contributed as well, as it was most likely influenced to help Rossi on the Ducati. I'd be pissed if the tyres were changed in 2008 specifically to assist my rival and then again for the very same person in 2012.

Jumkie · Jan 1, 2016

#22 said:
I do wonder how much the tyre change late in the day of the 2012 pre-season contributed as well, as it was most likely influenced to help Rossi on the Ducati. I'd be pissed if the tyres were changed in 2008 specifically to assist my rival and then again for the very same person in 2012.

Not to mention the sudden and unexpected weight change to the RCV which at the time was probably aimed at helping Ducati, except Rossi had already been ushered back at Yamaha.

At the time, the Rossi apologist were saying it was only "fair" Rossi get the Bridgestone to compete on a level playing field, the irony being Rossi had competed for years with a massive tire advantage. Rossi threatened to quit racing, stay at home if he didn't get Bridgestones. That means everyone who requested the tires in 08 but didn't get them: Lorenzo, Pedrosa, and Nicky Hayden among others, were schmucks for competing on tires that were decidedly at a disadvantage.

Suzuki and Kawasaki were also detrimentally effected by this tire change in 08 les we forget.

Noteworthy, check out Hopkin's wheelie. Still imprinted into my memory. Take a look at the tire manufacture result at the end of the race. This wasn't something achieved in a flash, but the investment started in 03, four years earlier. The Rossi fans were up in arms because poor Rossi was made to suffer on subpar tires that wouldn't let him win, of course those tires had allowed him a run of titles from 02-05 with stunning domination (Rossi fans were not crying for the Bridgestone shod riders). Take note of Casey's smiles and a feeling of general joy, which changed the day after he wore a T-shirt that displayed Valentino Rossi as one of his heroes. Casey thought it was a competition about determination and talent not a political marketing popularity contest, which he learned painfully slowly for the next few years.

Gaz · Jan 1, 2016

#22 said:
I do wonder how much the tyre change late in the day of the 2012 pre-season contributed as well, as it was most likely influenced to help Rossi on the Ducati. I'd be pissed if the tyres were changed in 2008 specifically to assist my rival and then again for the very same person in 2012.

Personal theory and opinion only, but I do believe that to be the straw that likely broke the camel's back so to speak in terms of his disenchantment with DORNA (I do believe that he was also enjoying being a family man and father to his daughter and he placed a priority on this aspect)

IMO only, but it started in around 2008 with the tyre shenanigans, through the 'safety committee' of which he was a part but was never listened to (claimed) and onwards to many other aspects of the sport that he either did not agree with or felt were being implemented to harm his or HRC's (as it was then) results.

More credit to him .............. if he has enough conviction to make the stand, then walk away because of his convictions (never mind walking from 20 million) then he surely cannot be the weak assed whinging buck toothed dweeb of some people's dreams, but is instead a leader, just that he is the black sheep leader

Gaz · Jan 1, 2016

Thanks for that vid Jums ................... I do miss Chris the V .

Absolutely top guy, unfortunately hampered by serious knee injuries

povol · Jan 1, 2016

It is no secret that Rossi benefited mightyly from superior tires throughout the first 2/3's of his career. Ironically, it was his and Dornas back room machinations that eventually exposed Rossi as not the almighty God of gp, but as another very good rider that is no better than Lawson, Rainey, Doohan, Roberts etc etc.. Once he demanded Bridgestones, he benefitted initially,but it also was the beggining of the slide into mediocrity . His demands led to others demanding the Bridgestones, which led to the control tire, which led to Rossi competing on the same tires as everyone for the first time in his career. Since then the numbers are very telling. Since the beggining of 2009, when everyone was on the same tires, Lorenzo has won 39 races and 3 titles, Marquez 24 races and 2 titles in 4 less years, Stoner 22 races 1 title in 3 less years Pedrosa 22 wins 0 titles, Rossi 15 wins 1 title. The question that begs to asked, who would we be comparing Rossi with had he played the game on equal equipment his entire career.

Jumkie · Jan 1, 2016

povol said:
The question that begs to asked, who would we be comparing Rossi with had he played the game on equal equipment his entire career.

Modern era (80s to present):

Lucchinelli
Uncini
Gardner
Kevin Schwantz
Alex Criville
Junior Roberts
Nicky Hayden
Marc Marquez*

Not bad company. 2 legends in that short list. Respectable.

Definitely NOT:

King Kenny
Spencer
Lawson
Rainey
Doohan
Stoner
Lorenzo
Marquez*

* debatable until we see more the trajectory of his career

(Side note: Povol, since your return from hiatus, your posts have been a real pleasure).

Edit reason: for .... sake I'm .........

Keshav · Jan 1, 2016

JPSLotus said:
I believe in spite of what Casey said, VR was the main impetus for retiring in 2012. Yeah there was all the other .... he did not like about modern GP, but VR's presence had more to do with the state of modern GP than anything else. 100% agreement though about Stoner's overall treatment being a result of Rossi and his moron brigade of fans. I have a lot of ire for his fans obviously because I view them as little more than a low-class breed of humans that exhibit little to no intelligence, and worship a guy who if he was not racing motorcycles, would be a snake oil salesman.

The "whining" of Stoner has been so vastly overblown. I never have taken the accusations of it seriously. He got painted a whiner by VR's toxic fanbase and the media. They are all .... for brains.

Man....

I wholly agree. BTW - That covers a lot of people on this forum, two in particular come to mind.

Gaz · Jan 1, 2016

Jums, genuine question.

From your lists you compare to Schwantz but say Roberts Jr is incomparable and not to be compared against.

Did I read that right?

Asking as I find it interesting that you (by my interpretation) then would seem to rate Schwantz as lesser than Jr (or are you suggesting Jr is lesser again).

As said, genuinely interested.

Interesting as well, no Pedrosa (or are we only looking at championship winners?) and given your Hayden feelings, a big congrats with where you rate him.

Keshav · Jan 1, 2016

povol said:
It is no secret that Rossi benefited mightyly from superior tires throughout the first 2/3's of his career. Ironically, it was his and Dornas back room machinations that eventually exposed Rossi as not the almighty God of gp, but as another very good rider that is no better than Lawson, Rainey, Doohan, Roberts etc etc.. Once he demanded Bridgestones, he benefitted initially,but it also was the beggining of the slide into mediocrity . His demands led to others demanding the Bridgestones, which led to the control tire, which led to Rossi competing on the same tires as everyone for the first time in his career. Since then the numbers are very telling. Since the beggining of 2009, when everyone was on the same tires, Lorenzo has won 39 races and 3 titles, Marquez 24 races and 2 titles in 4 less years, Stoner 22 races 1 title in 3 less years Pedrosa 22 wins 0 titles, Rossi 15 wins 1 title. The question that begs to asked, who would we be comparing Rossi with had he played the game on equal equipment his entire career.

Bill Cosby?

Jumkie · Jan 1, 2016

Gaz said:
Jums, genuine question.

From your lists you compare to Schwantz but say Roberts Jr is incomparable and not to be compared against.

Did I read that right?

Interesting as well, no Pedrosa (or are we only looking at championship winners?) and given your Hayden feelings, a big congrats with where you rate him.

I had Jr. mistakenly up there twice, second list was corrected, meant Sr. One little letter, such a big difference.

I rate Mamola as I would any MotoGP champion, unfortunately he is not a MotoGP champion so he wasn't included. However, I've asked this before, how many ........ titles are worth one legitimate? (Obviously I'm referring to Rossi, but I understand I have a fringe perspective.) Anyway, Mamola had the unfortunate luck of competing at a time where he would have had to beat truly 'great' riders. I rate Pedrosa highly, but certainly not great, nor to state the obvious, a MotoGP champion. Dani had his chance in 2008-10+. He was in a far more advantaged position than Mamola. So Pedrosa definitely doesn't deserve to be on the list.

Gaz · Jan 1, 2016

Jums, you now have Sr listed twice (once in each list) and Jr once (in your second list)

As for Mamola, I don't see why you cannot place him in the relevant list as to me it is comparable riders, not champions (unless Pov only refers to champs as after all, this is theoretical so why not include those that were good or very good but did not win)

Edit ........... now, where would Rudroff fit here ........ bahaha

Jumkie · Jan 1, 2016

Gaz said:
Jums, you now have Sr listed twice (once in each list) and Jr once (in your second list)

As for Mamola, I don't see why you cannot place him in the relevant list as to me it is comparable riders, not champions (unless Pov only refers to champs as after all, this is theoretical so why not include those that were good or very good but did not win)

Edit ........... now, where would Rudroff fit here ........ bahaha

I edited. My fault for trying to use their proper names.

Btw, I added "debatable" next to Marquez. Too new to really gauge the trajectory of what list he belongs on.

MGP 'champion' for the sake of avoiding a protracted debate. I left off Kocinski, which you hate, Biaggi and Gibernau too, which I rate highly, but not MGP champs.

Gaz · Jan 1, 2016

IMO only.

Kocinski not the equal of any on the list -- didn't achieve in MGP what would be needed for him to be included (not questioning talent as discussed elsewhere)

Biaggi -- I rate highly, moreso as a two stroke rider but he did ok in his 4 stroke side (leaving aside WSBK)

Gibbers - I feel he is somewhat under-rated when we talk of his riding but to me, I would not rate him equal of any on the list

Throw another for you (as general discussion - not champion) ............. Barros.

When he got the factory RCV he did pretty damn good as I recall and is another I feel was under-rated

Agree fully on MM at the moment as well -- results look sensational but I like a bit of longevity of career and results as this allows a better gauging of perspectives

michaelm · Jan 1, 2016

Gaz said:
Jums, you now have Sr listed twice (once in each list) and Jr once (in your second list)

As for Mamola, I don't see why you cannot place him in the relevant list as to me it is comparable riders, not champions (unless Pov only refers to champs as after all, this is theoretical so why not include those that were good or very good but did not win)

Edit ........... now, where would Rudroff fit here ........ bahaha

I rate VR similarly to Povol, who doesn't allow his frequently expressed personal dislike of the man to justify dismissing all of VR's achievements.

If you want to argue that Dorna at some stage decided that Rossi being successful was good for business and that the success of certain other riders wasn't, you will get little argument from me; you in fact once suggested I was a conspiracy theorist for concluding that the late weight and tyre changes in 2012 were at least partly aimed at thwarting Stoner.

Rossi had a significant career before Dorna however, and if the game was fixed in his favour it was by Honda and Michelin and consistent with the way prototype bike racing had worked previously and not by off-track manipulation either by those in charge of the sport or Rossi himself imo. As Babelfish argued at that time, mostly correctly imo, the SNS tyre was basically a control tyre for most of the leading contenders not just Rossi, not that this was fair either of course. I agree with you and Povol in regard to what happened within not many months of the Michelin no longer appearing to be the superior tyre despite years of having been so.

I also don't think there was any favouritism in this season (apart as you say from him being on one of only 4 bikes which could win, which probably went down to 3 when Spies was on a factory Yamaha) prior to Rossi's late season meltdown, Jorge even got his preferred edge grip tyre as one of the options, and it has to be factored in that a 36 year old Rossi was still leading the championship with 2 races to go before the events of Sepang with Lorenzo and MM whom you do rate highly in the field.

Can Ducati get two wins in 2016??

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