Can Ducati get two wins in 2016??

michaelm · Dec 30, 2015

yamaka46 said:
Maybe you were not watching that closely when the "mosquito" bit Biaggi on the steps to the podium in Catalunya 2001. Rossi has always been capable of petulance, though TBH, given Biaggi's superior attitude to the "boy from the marshes" vs his self titled moniker of "The Roman Emperor" together with how young (and talented) Rossi was in 2001 (20), colour me unsurprised.

Of course he was complicit in SG's "downfall" once SG had shown himself not to be a friend wrt cleaning the grid in Malaysia. Before that they went on holiday together - VR felt betrayed and lashed out. Regarding MB, MB had no respect for VR from the start so the same was true in reverse. However MB at the time was a spiteful piece of work - Biaggi lost his ride for the 2006 season (replaced by DP). Even with the backing of major tobacco sponsor Camel he negotiated with Honda, Kawasaki, and Suzuki and was unable to land a contract, with Honda refusing point blank to even consider giving him a satellite bike. Camel went on to sponsor VR's Yam that year which must have really pissed MB off.

In WSBK I developed a fondness for MB that was not possible when he was being an all out ...... in MotoGP. IMHO, of course

WRT to Stoner I'm less sure what the dynamic was - in the early days they seemed fine with each other, but something changed. Some will say it was the same with MM & once he was a real threat VR stopped liking them, but I'd guess it's a little more complex as CS was a threat day one of 2007.

Sure, what I was saying was that I had no trouble going along with the anti-Biaggi stuff with Rossi because I had perceived his behaviour to be similar with Doohan, which I am sure it was. My points now are that Rossi has shown himself to be entirely capable of similar behaviour, with has provoked a very different reaction from his fan base, and in addition it is now nakedly apparent that he is willing to employ his fan base against his rivals, so as a Stoner fan boy, which I have never denied I very definitely am, I also retrospectively give him significant blame for Stoner's persecution rather than just blaming that element of his fandom as I previously did.

The issues are of character and hypocrisy for me, which I don't see as entirely irrelevant given the fairly complete defamation of the character of nearly any serious rival he has ever had in which I now see him as complicit as I said. No doubt about his riding talent and his full realisation of that talent over such an unprecedented length of time. I also strongly disagree that just anyone, or even the likes of Iannone, could have performed as he did this year, and am very prepared to believe he had something to do with the 2015 Yamaha being as good as it was. As I have said, I am sure he would still be a charming and interesting fellow away from the sport as well, the latter more so than many of his competitors, past or present.

I had in no way forgotten the mosquito bite incident. But watching in the last couple of years a replay of the incident which provoked it with a differently jaundiced eye, I can see a case for Biaggi believing he was being forced off the track. I do distrust watching replays of incidents though, at least watching live you are only affected by your own prejudices rather than those of everyone whom you have seen comment in the interim.

J4rn0 · Dec 30, 2015

Bern1 said:
J4 I was once a rossi fan.

Even bought the autobiography (tells you a lot about the person, not in a great way btw imo), bought a yellow hat too, since passed on to one of my "yellow horde" friends.

I always admired the riding skill, but gradually over the years tired of the come to be predictable mind games and dirty riding. Both of those things only directed at riders who beat him of course.

Gibernau Assen 2005 was the beginning of the end of my admiration for vr. Hard to believe it's been 10 years since then, however one thing is pretty clear: the incidents of vr bs have been increasing in frequency to the point that they now way outnumber the incidents of brilliant riding on his part.

Hence the tarnishing of legacy, depending on whether one can see through the yellow fog or not.

We are all entitled to our opinions. "Legacy" is a matter of public perception though, it's not an individual judgement -- to consider Rossi's legacy tarnished, one would need to see a substantial fall of his standings with the public, which isn't observable. I'm just assessing a situation leaving judgement aside.

michaelm · Dec 30, 2015

J4rn0 said:
We are all entitled to our opinions. "Legacy" is a matter of public perception though, it's not an individual judgement -- to consider Rossi's legacy tarnished, one would need to see a substantial fall of his standings with the public, which isn't observable. I'm just assessing a situation leaving judgement aside.

Even if he had retired after the Ducati adventure, without the renaissance back at Yamaha , he would have been remembered for his career before then, just like Eddie Lawson and Cagiva.

I also think few of the people you now characterise as having a long term prejudice against Rossi would have refused to acknowledge him as the greatest had he retired after the 5th or 7th premier class titles. What Povol is now saying is that he now considers Rossi one of the greats, like Roberts, Rainey or Lawson, rather than the outright greatest, hardly strong condemnation given his allegiances, just as I now question whether he is all that much better than Doohan.

As you more or less say, the happy-go-lucky purely motivated by the love of riding/competition thing is going to be harder to sustain as well.

J4rn0 · Dec 31, 2015

michaelm said:
Even if he had retired after the Ducati adventure, without the renaissance back at Yamaha , he would have been remembered for his career before then, just like Eddie Lawson and Cagiva.

I also think few of the people you now characterise as having a long term prejudice against Rossi would have refused to acknowledge him as the greatest had he retired after the 5th or 7th premier class titles. What Povol is now saying is that he now considers Rossi one of the greats, like Roberts, Rainey or Lawson, rather than the outright greatest, hardly strong condemnation given his allegiances, just as I now question whether he is all that much better than Doohan.

As you more or less say, the happy-go-lucky purely motivated by the love of riding/competition thing is going to be harder to sustain as well.

In every sport there are the greatest athletes -- never the "greatest one", if you ask me, also because different eras cannot really be compared and the mere count of titles and trophies is not that significant. Being on the same level as Doohan is being at that top level, there is nothing above. Rossi is up there with the others, he'll stay there.

michaelm · Dec 31, 2015

J4rn0 said:
In every sport there are the greatest athletes -- never the "greatest one", if you ask me, also because different eras cannot really be compared and the mere count of titles and trophies is not that significant. Being on the same level as Doohan is being at that top level, there is nothing above. Rossi is up there with the others, he'll stay there.

No dispute at all.

JPSLotus · Dec 31, 2015

Rossi doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence as Kenny Roberts or Wayne Rainey.

Did either of them punt riders intentionally, multiple times? Just that alone should disqualify him from being in the same sentence.

I don't give a .... what his stats are, Looking at the overall picture of his career and that has to include the unsavory stuff on and off track, he's not worthy of being lumped in with the legends at all.

He may be a great purely on numbers, but he's not a great when all facets are considered.

Before anyone cries, he's talented yes. He has a number of premier class titles. But that's only part of the overall picture.

Little Walter · Dec 31, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Rossi doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence as Kenny Roberts or Wayne Rainey.

Did either of them punt riders intentionally, multiple times? Just that alone should disqualify him from being in the same sentence.

I don't give a .... what his stats are, Looking at the overall picture of his career and that has to include the unsavory stuff on and off track, he's not worthy of being lumped in with the legends at all.

He may be a great purely on numbers, but he's not a great when all facets are considered.

Before anyone cries, he's talented yes. He has a number of premier class titles. But that's only part of the overall picture.

If this were a forum of saints or the college of cardinals voting on the next pope I could see Vale being disqualified by your standards, but it's about the racing. I haven't watched every GP race ever and am not an historian, but I know enough about the history of the sport so as not be naive enough to believe that Rainey and Roberts were saints. There's been un-reported cheating of all kinds in this sport, as there has been in every sport. The fact is, we don't know as much as we'd like to believe about what went on in the days before hi-def cameras and social media that pokes it's way into every nook and cranny of rider's lives. Love him or hate him Vale will be seen as one of the greats. There are only a very few in the sport one could opine, to be morally beyond reproach.

JPSLotus · Dec 31, 2015

Little Walter said:
If this were a forum of saints or the college of cardinals voting on the next pope I could see Vale being disqualified by your standards, but it's about the racing. I haven't watched every GP race ever and am not an historian, but I know enough about the history of the sport so as not be naive enough to believe that Rainey and Roberts were saints. There's been un-reported cheating of all kinds in this sport, as there has been in every sport. The fact is, we don't know as much as we'd like to believe about what went on in the days before hi-def cameras and social media that pokes it's way into every nook and cranny of rider's lives. Love him or hate him Vale will be seen as one of the greats. There are only a very few in the sport one could opine, to be morally beyond reproach.

Did either punt another rider the way VR has more than once?

Spare me the moral relativism .........

michaelm · Dec 31, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Rossi doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence as Kenny Roberts or Wayne Rainey.

Did either of them punt riders intentionally, multiple times? Just that alone should disqualify him from being in the same sentence.

I don't give a .... what his stats are, Looking at the overall picture of his career and that has to include the unsavory stuff on and off track, he's not worthy of being lumped in with the legends at all.

He may be a great purely on numbers, but he's not a great when all facets are considered.

Before anyone cries, he's talented yes. He has a number of premier class titles. But that's only part of the overall picture.

Sorry, I disagree. His character can be disputed ((I have been doing so myself in fact) but not his talent or results. He didn't win any titles, and only 1 race as far as I am concerned (Jerez 2005) by on-track villainy.

I don't think MM has ever taken anyone out deliberately, but he has been vastly more reckless and dangerous as a rider in his career thus far than Valentino has ever been. Before all this, I think after the Jerez 2011 incident (a riding error but possibly influenced by him trying to prove something) Lex who could be very insightful and was far from a Rossi fan characterised him as ruthless on track but not a psychopath which was fairly accurate imo.

JPSLotus · Dec 31, 2015

michaelm said:
Sorry, I disagree. His character can be disputed ((I have been doing so myself in fact) but not his talent or results. He didn't win any titles, and only 1 race as far as I am concerned (Jerez 2005) by on-track villainy.

I don't think MM has ever taken anyone out deliberately, but he has been vastly more reckless and dangerous as a rider in his career thus far than Valentino has ever been. Before all this, I think after the Jerez 2011 incident (a riding error but possibly influenced by him trying to prove something) Lex who could be very insightful and was far from a Rossi fan characterised him as ruthless on track but not a psychopath which was fairly accurate imo.

MM's riding doesn't factor into this so I am not even addressing that part of your post. It's a red herring, and I have already made my thoughts known on MM earlier this year. We're talking VR only and the need to mention him in the same sentence as Wayne Rainey and Kenny Roberts.

It doesn't matter whether he did not win a race, won a race, won a title, did not win a title as a result of any dirty riding he engaged in.

Character factors into the overall assessment because the character we are discussing is his on-track character. It was an instrument used by VR in the pursuit of his victories and world championships.

In the premier class over the last 20, 30, or even 40 years, has any premier class champion ever knowingly punted a rider during a grand prix in order to secure a position?

Mentioning Wayne Rainey is good because he had monster battles with Kevin Schwantz obviously for a number of years. The two genuinely hated each other at that time. Can you name any point at which Wayne Rainey, through all of his aggravation and dislike punted Schwantz off a bike?

Now contrast that to 2015 where a particular individual named Valentino Rossi experienced an enormous amount of frustration at his inability to prevent a championship from slipping away, and resorted to a tactic that has never been seen out of a premier class world champion during a premier class race to the best of my knowledge.

This compilation shows a lot of the close racing Schwantz and Rainey engaged in over several years, and in spite of the hate, there is no Jerez, Motegi, or Sepang moment. There's close racing no doubt which is fine.

Little Walter · Dec 31, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Did either punt another rider the way VR has more than once?

Spare me the moral relativism .........

michaelm · Dec 31, 2015

JPSLotus said:
MM's riding doesn't factor into this so I am not even addressing that part of your post. It's a red herring, and I have already made my thoughts known on MM earlier this year. We're talking VR only and the need to mention him in the same sentence as Wayne Rainey and Kenny Roberts.

It doesn't matter whether he did not win a race, won a race, won a title, did not win a title as a result of any dirty riding he engaged in.

Character factors into the overall assessment because the character we are discussing is his on-track character. It was an instrument used by VR in the pursuit of his victories and world championships.

In the premier class over the last 20, 30, or even 40 years, has any premier class champion ever knowingly punted a rider during a grand prix in order to secure a position?

Mentioning Wayne Rainey is good because he had monster battles with Kevin Schwantz obviously for a number of years. The two genuinely hated each other at that time. Can you name any point at which Wayne Rainey, through all of his aggravation and dislike punted Schwantz off a bike?

Now contrast that to 2015 where a particular individual named Valentino Rossi experienced an enormous amount of frustration at his inability to prevent a championship from slipping away, and resorted to a tactic that has never been seen out of a premier class world champion during a premier class race to the best of my knowledge.

This compilation shows a lot of the close racing Schwantz and Rainey engaged in over several years, and in spite of the hate, there is no Jerez, Motegi, or Sepang moment. There's close racing no doubt which is fine.

Your opinion and your arguments are your own, to which you are of course absolutely entitled.

I have been accused probably correctly since early adulthood of being overly wedded to aristotlean logic, which has not always been to my advantage, and am not for turning now. Having argued on this and other forums since 2007 against those whom you and others call "boppers" demeaning the achievements of other riders such as Hayden, Stoner and Lorenzo on the basis of claimed "advantages", or perceived character and/or personality defects in the case of Stoner and to some extent Lorenzo, I am not about to start demeaning Rossi's even greater achievements on a similar basis.

I have to admit to feeling some sense of vindication, petty though that may be, from seeing Rossi out-whine/out -whinge Stoner by orders of magnitude in regard to recent events, which even the most blinded Rossi zealot can scarcely deny, although some have tried to do so rather unsuccessfully, by which I am referring to our run of transient recent posters rather than long term posters and fans of both the sport and Rossi such as Yamacka and J4rn0.

JPSLotus · Dec 31, 2015

Mike I appreciate what you post, but sometimes when you strive to achieve the veneer of impartiality, you wind up minimizing or rationalizing things that shouldn't be.

Again, I have stated that VR is not on the same level as Kenny Roberts or Wayne Rainey simply because of how he has chosen to conduct himself across his entire premier class career.

Pete Rose remains on Major League Baseball's permanently ineligible list for betting on baseball. Great player yes, complete piece of .... as a person. He was banned for life for conduct detrimental to the sport as a whole...you see where I am going with this as it relates to Valentino Rossi?

It's a shame you refuse to acknowledge that his, or any career is more than the sum of race victories and premier class championships.

michaelm · Dec 31, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Mike I appreciate what you post, but sometimes when you strive to achieve the veneer of impartiality, you wind up minimizing or rationalizing things that shouldn't be.

Again, I have stated that VR is not on the same level as Kenny Roberts or Wayne Rainey simply because of how he has chosen to conduct himself across his entire premier class career.

Pete Rose remains on Major League Baseball's permanently ineligible list for betting on baseball. Great player yes, complete piece of .... as a person. He was banned for life for conduct detrimental to the sport as a whole...you see where I am going with this as it relates to Valentino Rossi?

It's a shame you refuse to acknowledge that his, or any career is more than the sum of race victories and premier class championships.

This is a different argument, into which Schumacher, Proust and Senna can be brought if you want to draw parallels with different sports, and I don't know much about baseball but I don't think there is much dispute that Rose was a fantastic baseballer or that his actual records were obtained by illicit means. Mick Doohan once deliberately caused a crash with Alex Criville as well for that matter, albeit in rather different circumstances.

I am happy to have most of what I ever argued vindicated imo at least, which was largely against negative contentions about riders other than Rossi. If you want to argue VR's character is not up to that of Rainey that is fine, and I would agree with you, but VR still won all those races and titles substantially on the basis of talent and application of that talent. J4rn0 is also correct that whatever you and I think he will won't be judged harshly by posterity. I am sure we both also recognise there is absolutely no chance of the sport under its current management, or any future management imo, classifying VR as baseball did Pete Rose.

Jumkie · Dec 31, 2015

Mike, i must interject brother, you mentioned this before on the thread; however, I'd argue all day if your position is Rossi’s record isn't artificially inflated by what amounts to equipment doping. Is VR "talented", yes, above average as are top 5 riders any given year. Did he have exclusive advantages to the detriment of other top riders, yes. (Excuse my baseball analogy). When a guy comes to bat on the juice and hits a home run, he will run around the bases exactly the same as a clean guy who hits a home run. Both home runs required a talented hitter, and it 'appears ' the same. Rossi fans love to point to the score board, in a similar way you're doing in the thread my friend. The thing is the level playing field in regards to Rossi is anything but level.

BarryMachine · Dec 31, 2015

I dont think you can compare what Rose did to Rossis antics.

Kicking another riders bike in a race is like Rose turned around and slugged the catcher with a bat. Only not as dangerous.

Rose was just betting fraud. Rossi could have killed Marquez.

Jumkie · Dec 31, 2015

BarryMachine said:
I dont think you can compare what Rose did to Rossis antics.

Kicking another riders bike in a race is like Rose turned around and slugged the catcher with a bat. Only not as dangerous.

Rose was just betting fraud. Rossi could have killed Marquez.

....... ace.

michaelm · Dec 31, 2015

Jumkie said:
Mike, i must interject brother, you mentioned this before on the thread; however, I'd argue all day if your position is Rossi’s record isn't artificially inflated by what amounts to equipment doping. Is VR "talented", yes, above average as are top 5 riders any given year. Did he have exclusive advantages to the detriment of other top riders, yes. (Excuse my baseball analogy). When a guy comes to bat on the juice and hits a home run, he will run around the bases exactly the same as a clean guy who hits a home run. Both home runs required a talented hitter, and it 'appears ' the same. Rossi fans love to point to the score board, in a similar way you're doing in the thread my friend. The thing is the level playing field in regards to Rossi is anything but level.

As I have said before your participation in the forum is something I enjoy and a major reason why I am still here.

The thing is that while we have very similar views on many things (including politics as it happens), my views are not identical to yours on absolutely everything, and I do have an aversion to defeating my own arguments.

I started all this as very much an Internet neophyte who was like you a mild Rossi fan rather than passionate as I had been as a fan of Doohan's (I actually did post as doohanfan on another forum for a while) but did think he was a great rider. Much to my surprise I found when I first looked up some of the sites Stoner being pilloried for beating Rossi, and that Hayden had been pilloried before him, and considered it basically silly for those who were doing so to argue this given both riders had beaten/were beating Rossi.The reverse still applies now in my view, since if Rossi was never any good then riders of whom I am a fan like Stoner, Hayden and latterly Lorenzo didn't really achieve much by beating him.

Rossi has also been around for so long that it is easy to forget there was a time before Dorna. He was doubtless advantaged by being the only guy on a Honda 990 for most of a year, and by the way the tyres worked with Michelin as a supplier, but not by manipulation on Rossi's part imo, and substantially as a result of him being the best rider and therefore getting the best equipment as had often also previously been the case in GP bike racing. Hayden was also eventually screwed by his own team, Honda, imo, by bringing in the 800 formula after never really fully supporting him anyway, rather than by any machinations by Rossi.

Post 2007 we perhaps get into murkier waters, which is why I said "substantially" in my previous post. I didn't have much problem with him getting the Bridgestones per se, although it now looks quite likely that this involved off-track manipulation by VR, but do have a problem with Ducati and Stoner no longer being allowed to have "their" tyre, particularly if this occurred in 2008 before the control tyre of which I personally have never seen any real confirmation. I think Rossi himself still rode extremely well to win the 2008 and 2009 titles, but am less inclined to offer any argument against the playing field being uneven, perhaps at least partly by his influence., in those years

Keshav · Jan 1, 2016

michaelm said:
As I have said before your participation in the forum is something I enjoy and a major reason why I am still here.

The thing is that while we have very similar views on many things (including politics as it happens), my views are not identical to yours on absolutely everything, and I do have an aversion to defeating my own arguments.

I started all this as very much an Internet neophyte who was like you a mild Rossi fan rather than passionate as I had been as a fan of Doohan's (I actually did post as doohanfan on another forum for a while) but did think he was a great rider. Much to my surprise I found when I first looked up some of the sites Stoner being pilloried for beating Rossi, and that Hayden had been pilloried before him, and considered it basically silly for those who were doing so to argue this given both riders had beaten/were beating Rossi.The reverse still applies now in my view, since if Rossi was never any good then riders of whom I am a fan like Stoner, Hayden and latterly Lorenzo didn't really achieve much by beating him.

Rossi has also been around for so long that it is easy to forget there was a time before Dorna. He was doubtless advantaged by being the only guy on a Honda 990 for most of a year, and by the way the tyres worked with Michelin as a supplier, but not by manipulation on Rossi's part imo, and substantially as a result of him being the best rider and therefore getting the best equipment as had often also previously been the case in GP bike racing. Hayden was also eventually screwed by his own team, Honda, imo, by bringing in the 800 formula after never really fully supporting him anyway, rather than by any machinations by Rossi.

Post 2007 we perhaps get into murkier waters, which is why I said "substantially" in my previous post. I didn't have much problem with him getting the Bridgestones per se, although it now looks quite likely that this involved off-track manipulation by VR, but do have a problem with Ducati and Stoner no longer being allowed to have "their" tyre, particularly if this occurred in 2008 before the control tyre of which I personally have never seen any real confirmation. I think Rossi himself still rode extremely well to win the 2008 and 2009 titles, but am less inclined to offer any argument against the playing field being uneven, perhaps at least partly by his influence., in those years

Simple fact; playing field is never even, not even in Moto 2. Teams and riders eke out advantages wherever they can find them, but especially in prototype racing. Doubtless Rossi had advantages - but the degree with which those advantages influenced that final outcome of the races is IMHO - overstated. If Rossi had advantages it was doubtless due to some degree to his influence, and said influence, was due to his popularity, and that popularity was a result of the fact he was already a superlative rider in his early years. It's not as if this chain of events fell into place simply because of his relationship with the camera and the fans. Best riders get the best equipment - in any motorsport. Rossi fans whined about Stoner and how his bike gave him an unfair advantage and Stoner fans whined about the change in the Bridgestone tires. Fans from both sides of the fence complain that that their grudges and outrage stem from a lack of "justice" - when in imho 90% of these endless debates are fueled by nothing more than sour grapes. Rossi won plenty of races as a result of his talent and nothing can take that away.

MdubSTYLIE · Jan 1, 2016

BarryMachine said:
I dont think you can compare what Rose did to Rossis antics.

Kicking another riders bike in a race is like Rose turned around and slugged the catcher with a bat. Only not as dangerous.

Rose was just betting fraud. Rossi could have killed Marquez.

from me to you b nut.

And you could have killed any one of those sheep barry.

Can Ducati get two wins in 2016??

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