Cal: down the duke drain.

mylexicon

3578481376071650

You don't need to list all of the non-Spaniards who've ridden for Spanish sponsors. In my post, I made it clear that Spanish bias is limited to keeping 1 seat open for a Spanish rider, and earlier I accused them of overwhelming cultivation of Spanish talent, despite a global brand. The only glaring exception that springs to mind is Rossi-Hayden in 2003, but it is well known that Honda NA outmuscled Repsol--one of the few instances of American hegemony, but it was a regional distributor trying to sell CBRs, not a global brand who wanted America-uber-alles.


 


This has only become a contentious topic b/c people deny Spanish sponsor bias, though it is basically a foregone conclusion. I'm not even saying it's absolutely bad in the grand scheme. But considering the saturation of Spanish talent, and the global reputation of some Spanish sponsors over the years, their obsession with Spanish WC's is not particularly good for the sport ATM.

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Lex has it occurred to you that in view of the fact that as a sport in Spain, motorcycle racing is second only to the Liga BBVA do you not think that given it's magnitude it is only natural that itself a Spanish run series attracts a substantial amount of national commercial interest? Indeed in an era of multi national tendrils entwining the entire globe, the very notion of a purely Spanish owned corporation in the absence of worldwide concerns and investment is perhaps a tad outmoded. 

mylexicon

3578481376071650

You don't need to list all of the non-Spaniards who've ridden for Spanish sponsors. In my post, I made it clear that Spanish bias is limited to keeping 1 seat open for a Spanish rider, and earlier I accused them of overwhelming cultivation of Spanish talent, despite a global brand. The only glaring exception that springs to mind is Rossi-Hayden in 2003, but it is well known that Honda NA outmuscled Repsol--one of the few instances of American hegemony, but it was a regional distributor trying to sell CBRs, not a global brand who wanted America-uber-alles.
 
This has only become a contentious topic b/c people deny Spanish sponsor bias, though it is basically a foregone conclusion. I'm not even saying it's absolutely bad in the grand scheme. But considering the saturation of Spanish talent, and the global reputation of some Spanish sponsors over the years, their obsession with Spanish WC's is not particularly good for the sport ATM.

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Obviously, I do have to, as it seems to be conveniently forgotten that Spanish sponsors have consistenly provided rides for non-Spanish riders. Or that Monster was quick to back Hopkins and Spies.

I did not argue that Spanish sponsors do not like Spanish riders, many seem to do so. But I don´t see how they are in any way more nationalistic than sponsors from other countries.

Look up teams that run on Spanish sponsorship money and look at the number of non-Spanish riders they have employed this season. Than tell me the Spanish lock out other nationalities. I call .........

There simply is a lot of Spanish sponsorship in motogp because the sport is popular in Spain. They invest in it. The sport is not popular in the US. It seems odd to me to blame the Spanish.

There are also a lot of good young Spanish riders around. Pedrosa, Lorenzo, Bautista, Marquez and Pol Espargaro got into motogp because they excelled in the lower classes. Because the Spanish invest heavily in their young talents. The US does not. Also seems odd to me to blame the Spanish for this.

You combine these things, then yes, you get a lot of Spanish riders and a lot of Spanish backed teams.

The Spanish kept investing in the sport between 2000 and 2009. Go ahead and count the Spanish motogp champions in that period.

San Carlo. Italians only.

Kropotkin

3578541376074144

San Carlo. Italians only.

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Gamma. Dutch only.

Brut 33 - Brits only. 


 


http://youtu.be/C5tLfiu7an4

Arrabbiata1 said:

Brut 33 - Brits only.

http://youtu.be/C5tLfiu7an4

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Edit:-

Brut 33 - real men only...splash it all over

stiefel

3578531376074123

Obviously, I do have to, as it seems to be conveniently forgotten that Spanish sponsors have consistenly provided rides for non-Spanish riders.

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This is an enthusiast forum. No one has forgotten pictures of Doohan/Rossi/Hayden/Stoner in Repsol-branded kangaroo leather. The point of contention has always been whether or not global Spanish companies have the mettle to run organizations without a Spaniard. In aggregate, the answer is obviously "no". From a branding standpoint, they can not or will not move beyond Spain, which is part of the reason MotoGP is moored to the Iberian peninsula. And it's no secret that Spanish governments have been dumping money into international sports in recent years to galvanize a national Spanish identity, but MotoGP is not the same kind of contest as the Olympics or the World Cup.


 


I'm not angry about the Spanish Cup era, nor with the notion of a united Spain via MotoGP, but when Jumkie says it erodes the meritocracy of international motorsport, he is correct.

Arrabbiata1

3578511376072615

Lex has it occurred to you that in view of the fact that as a sport in Spain, motorcycle racing is second only to the Liga BBVA do you not think that given it's magnitude it is only natural that itself a Spanish run series attracts a substantial amount of national commercial interest? Indeed in an era of multi national tendrils entwining the entire globe, the very notion of a purely Spanish owned corporation in the absence of worldwide concerns and investment is perhaps a tad outmoded. 

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Of course it occurred to me. It also occurred to me that Spain is a weak economy, and Spanish multi-nationals earn more profit beyond their home market. It also occurred to me that if Spaniards cannot root for a non-Spaniard they are .... Spaniels. It seems that quite a few non-Spanish sportsmen are popular in Spain so...........idk, you figure out what Repsol are doing.


 


It looks like they are just hijacking the sport, confusing it with the Olympics or World Cup. 

mylexicon

3578601376080372

The point of contention has always been whether or not global Spanish companies have the mettle to run organizations without a Spaniard.

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Really? Seems to me like your the point of contention is whatever best suits you.mylexicon

3578601376080372

In aggregate, the answer is obviously "no". From a branding standpoint, they can not or will not move beyond Spain, which is part of the reason MotoGP is moored to the Iberian peninsula.

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I've seen nothing from either you or Jumkie that shows me that Spanish sponsors are fundamentally different in their national bias than sponsors from other countries. Cherry picking, yes. Comparing oil companies to tobacco or energy drink companies, while neglecting that the former two have far more interest in influencing consumer choice internationally than the latter.mylexicon

3578601376080372

And it's no secret that Spanish governments have been dumping money into international sports in recent years to galvanize a national Spanish identity, but MotoGP is not the same kind of contest as the Olympics or the World Cup.

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So what is the problem? If they choose to invest in sport, that's their choice. As a tax payer, I wouldn't be happy about it, but as a Dutch citizen, I'm used to my own government dumping money into other sports.

Again, I fail to see how the Spanish can be blamed.


 mylexicon

3578601376080372

I'm not angry about the Spanish Cup era, nor with the notion of a united Spain via MotoGP, but when Jumkie says it erodes the meritocracy of international motorsport, he is correct.

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Some nationalities are overrepresented. Spain, as we have discussed. Italy, allthough a lack of investement in young talent is catching up with them. British, because of BBC coverage. US, because the states were long considered an important market for motogp and the manufacturers.

Meritocracy? I'm not buying it. I believe there is as much nationalism behind your and Jumkies arguments as you guys attribute to the Spanish sponsors.
Tell me, honestly, how would you feel if McDonalds were to sponsor a competitive factory team and hired Aegerter and Kallio?

mylexicon

3578611376081292

Of course it occurred to me. It also occurred to me that Spain is a weak economy, and Spanish multi-nationals earn more profit beyond their home market. It also occurred to me that if Spaniards cannot root for a non-Spaniard they are .... Spaniels. It seems that quite a few non-Spanish sportsmen are popular in Spain so...........idk, you figure out what Repsol are doing.


 


It looks like they are just hijacking the sport, confusing it with the Olympics or World Cup. 

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http://youtu.be/28NnWphc8IY


 


http://youtu.be/7C8GWIV4jzA?t=3m13s

Well, some good debate here. Excellent contributions by most (except Steifel...but hes Dutch, therefore niave to the ways of the world..I suppose living there has also affected Krops. Wtf do u guys do all day, sing kum by ya). Ok so...the sport is popular in Spain, hardly news. No .... they have many Spanish sponsors as would be expected. Baseball is popular in the US. Many American companies sponsor baseball. Insightful? Not so much. Are Japs, Mex, Dominicans, Cubans, Canadians, Columbians, etc. frustrated access into the sport while Americans fast-tracked? No. It would then be like Americans getting a corked bat and u ..... concluding they are better hitters. Thats my point. Are some of u actually trying to argue that Spanish riders are not favored into GP where the modern predominance of Spanish riders is soley based on merit?!? In arguing the point, tangents are employed, from Marc is cute to Spain likes motoracing to Spanish national series is superior (a ........ repeated) to Repsol has employed English speakers & Italians (defacto Spaniards)...meanwhile little to nobody is actually refuting the point of contention. The gross over representation of Spaniards in GP is not because they simply are the best in the world; and their inflated results lead to misleading overhyped conclusions.

mylexicon

3577711376004025

Please. Xerox Europe funded a Ducati team that was dominated by an Australian. How many Brits rode for Castrol Honda? Sterilgarda backed Spies though he had little or nothing to do with Italy. Monster started off sponsoring a home town bro at Kawasaki, but they've branched out, and they don't force Americans into Tech 3, though they could easily put someone like Hayes on the bike and send Bradley home.


 


You've written several articles on the perils of sucking up to tobacco sponsors. Sucking up to Spanish sponsors can't be any better.

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IIRC Repsol actually spend .... all (in the overall scheme of how much money is spent on MotoGP teams and riders)... HRC made some announcement last year that had the roundabout millions they get from them to go racing. It was in the low single digits.


 


You could just as easily say Honda are supporting the sport - they have shedloads of subsidised kit about the paddock.


 


As to anyone else other than Repsol, which Spanish companies are spending large and dictating the direction of the sport? Banxia? Movistar? 


 


Spain has a lot to do with GP racing because, at the grass roots, they are putting in the groundwork to produce superior riders. They have these kids in mini moto racing at 6 and 7 and it goes on from there. Not just riders, but mechanics, engineers, designers - they have colleges set up specifically for two-wheeled motorsport where the likes of Jorge and Marc and Dani went to complete their education - both on and off the bike.


 


What other country puts in half as much effort into nurturing their motorsport than Spain?


 


When the US or UK puts in a fifth as much effort, I will begin to bother to notice their whiners, until then, it's just a white noise fueled by sour grapes.


 


The Spanish haven't hijacked a damned thing; they have bought and paid for it and legitimately own it, seeing as no-one else bothered to get off their arse and do a ....... thing to stop it going down the gurgler.

 

You misinterpret the situation.


 


Forty years ago we spent 70% the federal budget on middle class productivity, like military, agriculture, energy development, and infrastructure. These programs were a huge boon to American workers, and corporations benefitted. Today we spend 70% of the federal budget on charity.


 


 

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......... If that was the case, you only spend the federal budget on the military and welfare... which is pretty much exactly untrue.


 


http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_budget_detail_fy12bs12014n

Jumkie

3577521375986809

Separate debate:  We can talk about how special Marc is, but as you said, he'd be looking at podiums rather than outright wins on Alvaro's bike.  The reality of our human perceptions would then be, 'hey, that kid is good', but certainly not, 'that kid is god'.  Btw, we'd also be debating just how close to the factory spec Alvaro's bike is, that is, coupling the result with the parity of the bike, with the factory RCV no such debate needed.  We formulate this opinion based on the parity of everything around him! Pov said he'd have still won the races he did regardless on the GoFun bike.  You agree?  In Austin he barely edged out Pedro on a works.  You think he would have beat Pedro on Alvaro's bike (which finished behind a Ducati?  So I doubt a win there.  In Sausagering he edged out Cal by a second or so, this while Jlo injured, so I doubt a win there too. You see, you have to account for the slight performance disadvantage while the others remain on their works bikes. Laguna is probably the only place I think Marc might have had a chance at a win on Avlaro's bike...with the caveat that Pedro and Jlo were both injured, otherwise no way is he beating Pedro or Jlo on Alvaro's bike. So it highly unlikely he would have notched any wins on the GoFun, regardless of how much you love their livery.  Then what would have been everybody's opinion?  It probably would have went something like this...'that kid is a fantastic rookie to have finished on the podium on a satelite bike...but we have to wait and see if he is god.'  Uhm...wait for what?  Oh, to see him on the best bike on the grid surrounded by the best staff, on the most reliable, funded, suited machine...then we can all declare, he is god.


 


Again...my point is this, parity makes for many superficial opinions and perceptions about the rider's pecking order.  If one of these four japanese factory riders had any less equipment they would not be on par with the other 3.  Then suddenly we wouldn't be talking about the odd man out in such lofty terms.  This applies to all four of the Japanese factory riders...some more than others.

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You're neglecting to address this the other way around...


 


 



 
Arrabbiata1

3576071375802019



 

Today, Pov's notion of switching riders illustrates this well. I believe that Marquez and his crew - where not achieving the same remarkable results as we've witnessed in the Repsol fold, would nonetheless regularly be scoring podiums and still challenging for wins on the Gresini Honda. Conversely, if we stuck Bautista and his crew into Marc's garage is one honestly able to say with a straight face he could challenge Pedrosa (for all Dani's perceived mental and phsychological fragility) - far less ride it like Casey or Marc? I invite you to try. Bautista simply isn't of the same ilk. If you similarly transplanted the currently very fast and in form Cal onto Jorge's full factory machine - which relies upon a very unique individualised set up and cerebral style, poised and balanced within a precise wafer thin envelope/equilibrium of effectiveness - he'd fail to exploit the 'advantage' - I think the pressure would get to him too...(and I've always saluted his 'couldn't give a .... attitude which in part owes to where he is, given how far he's come). The fact that Lorenzo and Marquez have the rides that they do cannot be simply reduced to a passport, sponsorship or a Spanish owned series. Likewise there is a reason why Pedrosa has retained his tenure on the top Honda for eight years in the absence of a title (albeit I concede, aided by a complex sequence of fate, happenstance and politics).

 

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There are few capable of fully exploiting the benefits of full factory support to the extent of Marquez, Pedrosa and Lorenzo and I include Cal in that. We have seen this before.


 


To return to the question from the opposite scenario...can you honestly say that given Marquez's team resources and machinery Alvaro Bautista would be ahead of Dani in the championship and achieving the same results as Marc or would be able to ride it anywhere close to the way that Casey did?

mylexicon

3578611376081292

Of course it occurred to me. It also occurred to me that Spain is a weak economy, and Spanish multi-nationals earn more profit beyond their home market. 

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Repsol is insignificant outside of Spain and Portugal... you get the odd station in the Pyrenees and that's about your lot.

BJ.C

3578711376090745

Repsol is insignificant outside of Spain and Portugal... you get the odd station in the Pyrenees and that's about your lot.

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<strike>Zoot</strike> sorry, CJD, you speak the truth.

BJ.C

3578711376090745

Repsol is insignificant outside of Spain and Portugal... you get the odd station in the Pyrenees and that's about your lot.

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That's not how the oil industry works

BJ.C

3578681376090301

Spain has a lot to do with GP racing because, at the grass roots, they are putting in the groundwork to produce superior riders. They have these kids in mini moto racing at 6 and 7 and it goes on from there. Not just riders, but mechanics, engineers, designers - they have colleges set up specifically for two-wheeled motorsport where the likes of Jorge and Marc and Dani went to complete their education - both on and off the bike.

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Cool, story.


 


Remember that time when Dorna brought Stoner into the paddock so people could get a look at his riding. None of the Spaniards, not even Puig, could figure out that Stoner was better than Pedrosa or any of the other Spanish riders in the pipeline. That was an incredible display of Spanish talent cultivation.


 


Again, I don't condemn the Spanish contingent for being human, but the silly attempts to classify wanton Spanish nationalism as skilled rider cultivation is tiresome.

BJ.C

3578691376090481




......... If that was the case, you only spend the federal budget on the military and welfare... which is pretty much exactly untrue.


 


http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_budget_detail_fy12bs12014n

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BJ, it's not that difficult to read a graph. About 60% is pension, healthcare, and welfare. The 10% interest is attributable to programs that have been growing as a percentage of GDP. Those programs are the same as the 60%.

BJ.C said:

IIRC Repsol actually spend .... all (in the overall scheme of how much money is spent on MotoGP teams and riders)... HRC made some announcement last year that had the roundabout millions they get from them to go racing. It was in the low single digits.

You could just as easily say Honda are supporting the sport - they have shedloads of subsidised kit about the paddock.

As to anyone else other than Repsol, which Spanish companies are spending large and dictating the direction of the sport? Banxia? Movistar?

Spain has a lot to do with GP racing because, at the grass roots, they are putting in the groundwork to produce superior riders. They have these kids in mini moto racing at 6 and 7 and it goes on from there. Not just riders, but mechanics, engineers, designers - they have colleges set up specifically for two-wheeled motorsport where the likes of Jorge and Marc and Dani went to complete their education - both on and off the bike.

What other country puts in half as much effort into nurturing their motorsport than Spain?

When the US or UK puts in a fifth as much effort, I will begin to bother to notice their whiners, until then, it's just a white noise fueled by sour grapes.

The Spanish haven't hijacked a damned thing; they have bought and paid for it and legitimately own it, seeing as no-one else bothered to get off their arse and do a ....... thing to stop it going down the gurgler.

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Hogwash and ......... Repsol dont need to spend the GNP of a Euro nation to wield influence. Sure HRC can go it alone, .... Yamaha have, but u'd need to be a moron (which I think u are) or naive (Dutch residents) to believe the relationships woven and directed by Dorna and their Eurocentric compatriots are not heavily affecting the sport.

Btw, we have argued that Honda heavily influence the sport (generally accepted), for the same reasons ur trying to saw they dont. Fail.

Again repeating the complete ........ that Spain has vending machines on every street corner dispensing ready made GP riders. They start at 2 months of age racing bla bla bla. Newsflash wikibandit, so do kids of similar means from US, Aus, UK. Those that do, also start at young ages and race on respective forms of two-wheeled machines buzzing around to every track against similarly inclined kids setting their sight on motostardom. Ask any kid in minimotos in these English speaking countries who their heroes are, they repeat the same names as Spanish kids. Did wiki mention motoracing was NOT any more or less popular in the States when Americans were producing GP champs? Oh wait, that blows ur whole premise up!!! But ur gonna believe and repeat the ........ fed to u that Spain is different because they supposedly have the Spanish version of ITT Tech/DeVry motoracing academies as part of Spanish core kindergarten curriculum. And what has that produced? One singular Spanish MotoGP champ (Jlo). That there is a big fail then! This, with the caveat that Stoner was sequestered on a Ducati (which i could make the case ended up their decidedly because a series of happenstance aided again, by Spanish fineguling where Alberto Puig "helped" the Aussie on a bike that would not aptly challenge his boy toy Pedro, with the consequence of Pedro then getting the Repsol ride while Casey got 3rd rate tires. U see the consequences of Spaniards facilitating their compatriots are far reaching. Lets shelve the fact the "only" two times the rookie rule was bent then blown up was for two Spaniards. (I'll add more later, I aint done with ur .......). Oh no worries guys, BJC wont get butt hurt by my brashness. Hes got me on ignore anyway.


Im back. Continuing...u said: "the Spanished havent highjacked...theyve paid for it." Hahaha, man u make it too easy, like shooting fish in a barrel with a shotgun. First of all, unoriginal, u just stole Krops quote. Second, so they 'bought' the sport' this is ur stellar way of saying theyve not influenced it? Ah yes, completely different, right? They didnt "steal it" guys, they got the receipt stamped 'paid'. Haha. Need I even refute this as u are advancing my point.

Are u aware that Ducati require an Italian on their roster? Oh wait, Steifel is gonna list all the none-Italians Ducati have employed. Well guess what, u wont find it in any press release...not sure if its in Wikipedia. But this is generally accepted knowledge. Now u an others want to dispute similar and just as obvious nationalistic machinates that grossly favors Spaniards by Spanish dominated series run by Spaniards.