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No that would be portugal amongst other south American countries
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Arrabbiata1
Honestly I wouldn't know where Stoner might have ended up in a world where Alberto didnt exist...but in such a scenario we would need to factor in where Pedro might have ended up absent Puig as well; I suppose Pedros career/life would have been much more impacted. Stoner had a race savvy father whereas Puig became Pedros surrogate father of sorts. The thought occured to me that maybe Stoner might have followed the Chaz Davies route? Who knows eh. And I'll admit im not at all well versed on the lower category scene that led to Pedros & Stoners emergence beyond BJCing and a robust use of prior seasons videos via gp.com vid pass.
Another thought, Casey was prone to pushing beyond the limits of his machine, perhaps (and just speculating here) a better bike (Pedro spec) might have resulted in less crashes in 250s? Who knows. Could I point to Crashy Stoner 06 vs Crashyless Bstone specific 07, or say crash littered 2010 season and the stark contrast of 2011 to make some extrapolation? Stretch? Possibly.
Faceless champ... Despite my bias nationalistic rants against the post BSR (thnx L8), im gonna have to chalk up the "faceless" bit to American ignorance regarding GP champs. No MotoGP/500cc champ deserves anonymity; embarrassingly at a GP event no less. Truth be told if King Kenny or Steady Eddy walked into a 7/11 in Carmel, hardly anybody would notice. I will admit, Crevilles face is of little noteworthiness. .... the only reason I remember his first ever win at Assen was because Schwantz and Lawson crashed out from a vicious battle in the lead, the catapulted Texan in a ditch later being carted off on a stretcher was what I remember most.
Great pic u lifted there. Chaz is a world champ now just like Cal. Good lad, a pleasure of a human being while in the AMA. Little success here but nice kid. Stoner looks happy. Almost as happy as the pics depict in his recent test. Shame about Lascorz.
Wsbk is anemicly popular in Spain. Strange for a country which cultivates motoracers since the womb. And few Spanish champs to show for their motoracing national education system. Surely even the 2nd rate Spanish riders who didn't make the GP cut would have made it in Wsbk, the "junior" series. Plenty of Italian success though...well at least by Ducati. Our respected friend Krops (who I give .... to cuz I know he can take it) said Carmelo (the reptilian) was livid when he found out Yamaha had signed Poley. Lets stop and think about this for a moment. So the counter argument has been Spanish-centric shenanigans are a figment of my imagination because hey...the sport is just popular in Spain, they wouldn't throw around their influence affecting what otherwise is a system of simple meritocracy. Yet Krops drop a nugget of gold when he admitted Carmelian was upset. Why would he be upset if Yamaha simply signed the best rider? If he is deserving then Pol's passport should not be an issue. Why be upset? And why is it significant HE would be upset? Is perhaps the Commissioner involved in talent fixing based on nationality and this went against his wishes? Perhaps at this point so many Spaniards have been fastracked (no no that that tgere is an element of self conscious shame) but rather the intervention has reached critical saturation that he must pull back. If Carmelo had a chip to trade, based on Krops insight, perhaps Carmelo might have blocked Pol from going to Tech3? This would certainly not be a stretch to imagine. But Dutch Inc. are convinced competitive seats are issued soley based on meritocracy? I aint no fortune teller, but the reaction just dont add up. I mean, was Carmelo similarly pissed when HRC signed Marc or Yamaha signed VR? Area 51? No, but perhaps Area 46 & 93.
Honestly I wouldn't know where Stoner might have ended up in a world where Alberto didnt exist...but in such a scenario we would need to factor in where Pedro might have ended up absent Puig as well; I suppose Pedros career/life would have been much more impacted. Stoner had a race savvy father whereas Puig became Pedros surrogate father of sorts. The thought occured to me that maybe Stoner might have followed the Chaz Davies route? Who knows eh. And I'll admit im not at all well versed on the lower category scene that led to Pedros & Stoners emergence beyond BJCing and a robust use of prior seasons videos via gp.com vid pass.
Another thought, Casey was prone to pushing beyond the limits of his machine, perhaps (and just speculating here) a better bike (Pedro spec) might have resulted in less crashes in 250s? Who knows. Could I point to Crashy Stoner 06 vs Crashyless Bstone specific 07, or say crash littered 2010 season and the stark contrast of 2011 to make some extrapolation? Stretch? Possibly.
Faceless champ... Despite my bias nationalistic rants against the post BSR (thnx L8), im gonna have to chalk up the "faceless" bit to American ignorance regarding GP champs. No MotoGP/500cc champ deserves anonymity; embarrassingly at a GP event no less. Truth be told if King Kenny or Steady Eddy walked into a 7/11 in Carmel, hardly anybody would notice. I will admit, Crevilles face is of little noteworthiness. .... the only reason I remember his first ever win at Assen was because Schwantz and Lawson crashed out from a vicious battle in the lead, the catapulted Texan in a ditch later being carted off on a stretcher was what I remember most.
Great pic u lifted there. Chaz is a world champ now just like Cal. Good lad, a pleasure of a human being while in the AMA. Little success here but nice kid. Stoner looks happy. Almost as happy as the pics depict in his recent test. Shame about Lascorz.
Wsbk is anemicly popular in Spain. Strange for a country which cultivates motoracers since the womb. And few Spanish champs to show for their motoracing national education system. Surely even the 2nd rate Spanish riders who didn't make the GP cut would have made it in Wsbk, the "junior" series. Plenty of Italian success though...well at least by Ducati. Our respected friend Krops (who I give .... to cuz I know he can take it) said Carmelo (the reptilian) was livid when he found out Yamaha had signed Poley. Lets stop and think about this for a moment. So the counter argument has been Spanish-centric shenanigans are a figment of my imagination because hey...the sport is just popular in Spain, they wouldn't throw around their influence affecting what otherwise is a system of simple meritocracy. Yet Krops drop a nugget of gold when he admitted Carmelian was upset. Why would he be upset if Yamaha simply signed the best rider? If he is deserving then Pol's passport should not be an issue. Why be upset? And why is it significant HE would be upset? Is perhaps the Commissioner involved in talent fixing based on nationality and this went against his wishes? Perhaps at this point so many Spaniards have been fastracked (no no that that tgere is an element of self conscious shame) but rather the intervention has reached critical saturation that he must pull back. If Carmelo had a chip to trade, based on Krops insight, perhaps Carmelo might have blocked Pol from going to Tech3? This would certainly not be a stretch to imagine. But Dutch Inc. are convinced competitive seats are issued soley based on meritocracy? I aint no fortune teller, but the reaction just dont add up. I mean, was Carmelo similarly pissed when HRC signed Marc or Yamaha signed VR? Area 51? No, but perhaps Area 46 & 93.
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Its a sickness. Im not proud of it. I was up till 2 AM putting that together, that was the watered down version as I had lost my first draft to an untimely loss of battery. Regardles, it seems Arrabi was unimpressed. So my work continues.
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[quote post="357898" timestamp="1376153007"]
My old friend. For the purposes of this forum I am contemplating re- christening you as 'mymexican'. Not that this unholy alliance would ever tempt you to preach the liturgy of Lex or after so many years reopen the vaults of the Lex Files, but alarmingly you do seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet of late.I concede, you make many robust points to bolster and buttress your contentions but much like our Texan friend, the theoretical foundation which underpins the case you are attempting to construct is built on the shifting sands of sophistry as opposed to the bedrock and cornerstones of immutable and ineluctable evidence.Nationality plays a significant part in paddock politics - of course it does, but it does not always or invariably overlook talent or greater commercial interest. Should we however be in anyway surprised when we detect a Spanish bias, particularly in view of the fact that as BJC correctly pointed out, that afterall, they did see fit to purchase the bloody series. For all Dorna's meddling and micro-mangement, for all their myopia, not to embrace an international perspective and pursue a holistic global strategy would be suicidal as a business.If we are however to hypothetically model any useful scenario then indeed it should be the suggestion posited by Povol concerning how a rider of Bautista's calibre would fare should Marquez's full factory ride and resources have been availed to him. You make a very good point however regarding the repeal of the rookie ruling and that had this barrier not been removed then Marquez would have been languishing for a year in ghastly garish Gresini Go and Fun green. Had that rule not been revoked and reversed in a timely manner by HRC sorry, Dorna, then yes their great white hope would have been consigned to a 1 year contract in line with the rules within a satellite squad. You really think for one second though that the bike would have been the same? You can tell me given the politics that HRC wouldn't have a Go and Fun bike beating their works badged RCV..I recall a San Carlo machine and several Telefonica liveries that went pretty well, not to mention a nice little Nastro Azzurro number that was no stranger itself to Parc Ferme. Yeah the Rookie rule was circumvented via a hint of Spanish flavoured politics - nobody to my knowledge has refuted that and also pressure from the sponsor...which yes, is also Spanish. Had this not been the case Marquez would still be on a factory bike irrespective of his nationality, because that's what's HRC want - and here lies the nub of the argument. They don't want Baustista on a fully fledged factory bike because quite simply he isn't on the level of Marc Marquez. Suspend the Spanish - centric politics for a second here, the reason Marco Simoncelli - an Italian was given a full factory contract with HRC on a Gresini bike is because they wanted him. Sure, it was an Italian team and an Italian sponsor, but it was a full factory Honda. But Marquez didn't end up on the Gresini machine did he, why? It was HRC not as you suppose Dorna that pushed to veto the rookie rule and get Marquez on the full factory RCV. Notwithstanding nationality the only Spanish interest was primarily the sponsor.Stick Marc on the Go and Fun machine and I disagree with you, Marquez would be challenging Lorenzo and Pedrosa...but then as I said the machine would not be the same spec by virtue of its owners so we have hit another moot point.Let's do the reverse then, and return to the prospect of Alvaro on a Repsol ride, because I contend that the reason you find no purpose in modelling such a scenario isbecause at the heart of this debate is that the term 'alien' is anathematic to you...perhaps rightly so, perhaps not. Perhaps it's just the popular lazy label or tag adopted by naive casual observes of the sport that buy into the hype without appreciating the politics that so justifiably irks you. Or is it just the fact that to me the term is predicated upon talent alone. In view of this I understand why you think it pointless to switch this around. After all - four 'aliens' coincidentally riding the four best motorcycles on the grid - so let's see how they fare on lesser machines. To a certain extent we did when Valentino's vanity dealt him the Desmo and his career spectacularly backfired - for the first time in his career having to overcome significant handicap in machinery.But, you have conceded that Bautista would not be capable given the machinery of replicating the results of Dani and Marc and i think that is contrary to your belief, very relevant to this debate. I ask you then, who could? Remove Marc Marquez and Dani Pedrosa, who would you replace them with? Right now, who can step up to the mantle? No one can set up and ride that M1 the way that Jorge does. To Cal's credit, he's relegated his gung-ho style to the distant past and is desperately trying to figure out Jorge's technique. Doing it your way - hand Marquez Bautista's bike and I guarantee you that he'll ride it faster and as Casey did prior to signing with Ducati, perhaps at times beyond its limits, in a unique gifted style which betrays huge talent potential and attracts immediate interest form both factories and sponsors irrespective of nationality. He's simply better than the 'second tier riders'. He's better than Bradl, better than Crutchlow, better than Dovi and he's better than Bautista and he's a ....... rookie. You've already argued that he's better than Pedrosa so of the remaining two coveted rides, that leaves Rossi and Lorenzo. I believe all things equal he has the measure of Valentino now, Jorge? - ......he's damn good isn't he. See what i mean.(On the subject of Crutchlow, discussion around the issue of the fuel tank is extremely complex. Are you aware that Valentino was requesting that configuration? It seems to impede Cal during the first quarter of the race when it is laden but there is no doubt that it has been greatly beneficial to him this season in improving front end feel, not least in the wet at Le Mans).Alongside this, the entire thrust of your argument appears to be that Spanish riders are favourably nurtured and supported often at the expense of more deserving talent which is criminally overlooked. Yes, undoubtably this has happened, alongside the allegations of corruption and fixing, but Dorna's acquisition of the series had brought with it many positivities and benefits which often float over the heads of the collective unconsciousness comprising forum communities. I think it far more significant and indeed sinister/insidious, the substantial influence that HRC exert on both the championship and the MSMA and the possible future ramifications of this. I'd rather embrace the King of Spain and sing proudly, or rather in the absence of words, hum the Marcha Real every morning thrice before breakfast for the rest of my life thereby celebrating Spanish sovereignty over the series for all eternity than see the Evil Empire exert its will. Unfortunately it invariably does and for that reason should be far more the focus of a protracted political debate such as this than the issues of Spanish nationalism and perceived protectionism.[/quote]
Again, from my fone: (which for whatever reason doesn't format seperate paragraphs).
Amigo, I write this from Amish and Mennonite country, did u know there are grey and black buggies to distinguish the two sects? Learned that today.
Ok lets continue this exchange for ..... and giggles, eh. Always my pleasure to pick at ur racing mind.
1. Because Lex agrees with me doesn't make me wrong.2 (a.) U say I built my argument on "shifty sand"; but the counter argument offers nothing remarkably more solid by way of evidence. Its a battle of circumstancial evidence and logical witts based on extrapulated speculation. We are both attempting to explain and account for the gross over representation of Spanish riders. I say its because of Spanish facilitation u say its not that simple (which means u concede to a degree). So the nature of Spanish influence is 'complex', ok I accept...so it can be accounted directly, indirectly, and through happenstance; again i accept this notion. U said, "Nationality plays a significant part in paddock politics - of course it does, but it does not always or invariably overlook talent or greater commercial interest." which means it does 'sometimes';Im content with that, as it seems we are only separated by a matter of magnitude; I say Spanish favoritism accounts predominantly for this gross overrepresentation decidedly by design! You say, well, it is not 'always' the case, not always, well sure; No argument. ...AND isn't that what I have been saying all along? In addition I'm saying its got worse in recent years, especially now that the powers in charge have become more sophisticated!! That there are outliers doesn't nullify my contention!
2. ( B). Never underestimate the power of the mind, belief and re enforcement. Perhaps VR believed he really was infallible when he took that fateful step onto Ducati. And why not, everybody else told him he was, and the facilitated record reenforced the notion. I would have believed it too. (Though I once wrote an extensive post that outlined how I might have been able to logically convince VR that going to Ducati would have a near certain probability of failure. Though to which he might have replied, "what if I had never tried it." I said a year or so ago Casey was losing the 2012 title when his heart and more importantly, his mind were no longer in it. Others made the case it was a technical disadvantage that he was unable to mitigated (perhaps combination of both). Again, you said I trivialized the chatter he experienced and rather was a "major tire problem" that didn't suit his riding, yet as I said, he was able to reach the podium all first four races to start the season, and notched two wins in the process. Then... the big announcement came. Relevance? You say (in our separate debate) I conceded Alvaro would not have replicated Marc or Dani's record on a works and badged HRC machine, however good sir the relevant speculation is: where Marc would fair on a satellite bike, with inferior support and inferior machine to the other three current rivals on Japanese factory bikes COUPLED with how this would affect perceptions! Its irrelevant where Alvaro would be in this scheme, as my contention is Marc would NOT be leading and unlikely would have won a race. You don't need to convince me that Marc would ride the GoFun bike better than Alvaro, (or that Alvaro wouldn't ride the HRC bike as good) you need to try and convince me that Marc would have won races. And even if we entertain this thought, its a tangent to the actual debate, as I said before, this is not a debate about Marc being an outlier, but rather the propensity of the League to favor Spaniards!!!
2. (c) .1. As part of the conversation we discuss Marc by saying he is deserving of the promotion. I'm saying, ok, he is special, but the fact they paved the way supports this Spanish-centric underlying propensity of favoritism. As I said before, debating Marc is a separate argument, but I'll entertain it; lets take a look at his three wins. You think Marc would have won the AustinGP, against Dani on Alvaro's bike? .... he barely edged out his compatriot on a works RCV. How about Germany?...again, in your mind's eye he is riding Alvaro's bike and utilizing his crew against Cal who finished nearly a second off, gaining on him in the latter stages no less. You are going to convince me that Marc's specialness would have resulted in the exact same performance on the GoFun Honda as he did on the works Repsol RCV? Because thats what he would have needed to do. Marc is special, but are u convinced he would have performed the same on the works RCV that barely edged out Cal (while Lorenzo was injured) on the GoFun Honda? Sorry, I can't make that leap. As I said before, only Laguna do I give him a shot at wining on the GoFun Honda in its current trim. But with the caveat Pedro and Lorenzo were injured. And even then the not so special Bradl on the supposed works factory Honda led the race for quite a bit. Alvaro's bike did well at Laguna, but enough to have performed exactly as Marc did on the Repsol Honda?
2 (c).2. Now, I started this part of my post by saying "never underestimate the power of tge mind, belief and reenforcement". Here is my point, its easy to discount Alvaro's riding ability (and I have done so more than most) but take a guy with Alvaro's ability (that is, world class, is he not) and give him a badged works HRC with the compliment of their standard support of engineers etc., and tell the guy: "Hey! you are our man!" and I tell you, there is no telling what may result. Again, you don't need to convince me that Marc would ride the GoFun Honda better than Alvaro, the kid is clearly more talented, BUT he aint infalliable, so while we're speculating and all; He aint going to perform exactly the same on the GoFun as he has on the Repsol works bike! And, being on a truly satellite bike with its less respective compliment of support means the message he would have been getting is, you are the 'future'. Likely not getting the factory type advice and coaching that hes received. Brotha, you adamantly refuse the notion that anybody would be coaching the kid, as you refused the notion that cooler heads may have imparted some much needed guidance to the lad (which appears he didnt get in the lower category) in the form of advising him to be prudent about racing his teammate and racing in general, where you dismiss it as absurd. Why, I honestly fail to understand. The consequences of not heading such reasonable advice had consequences in Moto2, now with even more reason it would be reasonable to imagine somebody pulling him aside after a near miss and say, hey, be smart (and actually, there is evidence this very scenario took place as he has ridden more patiently, stocking his prey like a shark and making his move stick). And don't go saying this implies "team orders"; (as you have), because this is far from it. I ask, why it would not be reasonable to accept somebody tolding him a rather obvious needed advice, again is beyond me. Its simply normal to imagine somebody telling him, hey, remember when you ...... yourself out of a title in Moto2 and not only that, but almost ...... yourself out of eyesight? Well, ride smart, this is the big leagues son. Its reasonable to think that coaches are still coaching the rookie, no matter how talented.
3. Dorna vs HRC. You make the point that HRC removed the rookie rule. Does HRC have the power to do that independently? NO. Therefore, Dorna was involved. I contend this is evidence of Spanish favoritism. Mutual as the benefit was in this case, that HRC demanded it still involves Dorna's machinates my friend.
4. BSR. 'Before Spanish Rule' (thanks L8'). Do you remember when most people had to pay to have a checking account? Well, at least in the US we used to have to pay to have one. Then one day, all these commercials began to surface, "free checking". Turns out, somebody later made a documentary on how the banking industry figured out that they could leech more money off their customers by offering and signing up people to "free checking" but then gouging them on hidden fees and inflated ISF check fees, etc. It was a boom for banks. In this documentary, they actually interview the guy who came up with the idea and pitched it to all his banker buddies. That is these guys sit around figuring out how they can make more money. They became more sophisticated! MotoGP has become more sophisticated. Sure the satellite badged bikes use to beat the factory badged bikes, but not since 2006 has this happened. That my friend is 3 formulas ago! Ancient history in a "simpler" time. Thats when we learned Satellite Barros beating a factory Marlboro Ducati was no longer to be tolerated. And Roberts Jr. revealed that Honda would impose rev ceilings for their non-factory badged entries. Again, Marc would have ridden the hell out of a GoFun Honda, ok, but that still is a stretch for Honda to allow its factory bike to be beat, even by a kid that they like, as politics is politics! (...., not to mention less support, inferior kit, and messaging). You said it better than me regarding HRC politics: "I think it far more significant and indeed sinister/insidious, the substantial influence that HRC exert on both the championship and the MSMA and the possible future ramifications of this." Its not coincidence (in my mind) that satellite badged bikes no longer win races! Again...no matter how much better Marc would have ridden the GoFun RCV, its unlikely it would have won races. How this would affect the narrative of debate toward the lad would have been similar to the debate surrounding Crutchlow. Why? Because only you and a few others would have detected Marc's ability ABSENT any wins. Again, like Crutchlow, who has been on great form given his satellite bike, the majority of spectators would have been debating just how good the kid is, and just how close the satellite bike is to factory trim. Unless you are prepared to rationalize which GP he would have won from the three he has on the GoFun limey, then again, the debate would have been very similar surrounding Crutchlow today.
My old friend. For the purposes of this forum I am contemplating re- christening you as 'mymexican'. Not that this unholy alliance would ever tempt you to preach the liturgy of Lex or after so many years reopen the vaults of the Lex Files, but alarmingly you do seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet of late.I concede, you make many robust points to bolster and buttress your contentions but much like our Texan friend, the theoretical foundation which underpins the case you are attempting to construct is built on the shifting sands of sophistry as opposed to the bedrock and cornerstones of immutable and ineluctable evidence.Nationality plays a significant part in paddock politics - of course it does, but it does not always or invariably overlook talent or greater commercial interest. Should we however be in anyway surprised when we detect a Spanish bias, particularly in view of the fact that as BJC correctly pointed out, that afterall, they did see fit to purchase the bloody series. For all Dorna's meddling and micro-mangement, for all their myopia, not to embrace an international perspective and pursue a holistic global strategy would be suicidal as a business.If we are however to hypothetically model any useful scenario then indeed it should be the suggestion posited by Povol concerning how a rider of Bautista's calibre would fare should Marquez's full factory ride and resources have been availed to him. You make a very good point however regarding the repeal of the rookie ruling and that had this barrier not been removed then Marquez would have been languishing for a year in ghastly garish Gresini Go and Fun green. Had that rule not been revoked and reversed in a timely manner by HRC sorry, Dorna, then yes their great white hope would have been consigned to a 1 year contract in line with the rules within a satellite squad. You really think for one second though that the bike would have been the same? You can tell me given the politics that HRC wouldn't have a Go and Fun bike beating their works badged RCV..I recall a San Carlo machine and several Telefonica liveries that went pretty well, not to mention a nice little Nastro Azzurro number that was no stranger itself to Parc Ferme. Yeah the Rookie rule was circumvented via a hint of Spanish flavoured politics - nobody to my knowledge has refuted that and also pressure from the sponsor...which yes, is also Spanish. Had this not been the case Marquez would still be on a factory bike irrespective of his nationality, because that's what's HRC want - and here lies the nub of the argument. They don't want Baustista on a fully fledged factory bike because quite simply he isn't on the level of Marc Marquez. Suspend the Spanish - centric politics for a second here, the reason Marco Simoncelli - an Italian was given a full factory contract with HRC on a Gresini bike is because they wanted him. Sure, it was an Italian team and an Italian sponsor, but it was a full factory Honda. But Marquez didn't end up on the Gresini machine did he, why? It was HRC not as you suppose Dorna that pushed to veto the rookie rule and get Marquez on the full factory RCV. Notwithstanding nationality the only Spanish interest was primarily the sponsor.Stick Marc on the Go and Fun machine and I disagree with you, Marquez would be challenging Lorenzo and Pedrosa...but then as I said the machine would not be the same spec by virtue of its owners so we have hit another moot point.Let's do the reverse then, and return to the prospect of Alvaro on a Repsol ride, because I contend that the reason you find no purpose in modelling such a scenario isbecause at the heart of this debate is that the term 'alien' is anathematic to you...perhaps rightly so, perhaps not. Perhaps it's just the popular lazy label or tag adopted by naive casual observes of the sport that buy into the hype without appreciating the politics that so justifiably irks you. Or is it just the fact that to me the term is predicated upon talent alone. In view of this I understand why you think it pointless to switch this around. After all - four 'aliens' coincidentally riding the four best motorcycles on the grid - so let's see how they fare on lesser machines. To a certain extent we did when Valentino's vanity dealt him the Desmo and his career spectacularly backfired - for the first time in his career having to overcome significant handicap in machinery.But, you have conceded that Bautista would not be capable given the machinery of replicating the results of Dani and Marc and i think that is contrary to your belief, very relevant to this debate. I ask you then, who could? Remove Marc Marquez and Dani Pedrosa, who would you replace them with? Right now, who can step up to the mantle? No one can set up and ride that M1 the way that Jorge does. To Cal's credit, he's relegated his gung-ho style to the distant past and is desperately trying to figure out Jorge's technique. Doing it your way - hand Marquez Bautista's bike and I guarantee you that he'll ride it faster and as Casey did prior to signing with Ducati, perhaps at times beyond its limits, in a unique gifted style which betrays huge talent potential and attracts immediate interest form both factories and sponsors irrespective of nationality. He's simply better than the 'second tier riders'. He's better than Bradl, better than Crutchlow, better than Dovi and he's better than Bautista and he's a ....... rookie. You've already argued that he's better than Pedrosa so of the remaining two coveted rides, that leaves Rossi and Lorenzo. I believe all things equal he has the measure of Valentino now, Jorge? - ......he's damn good isn't he. See what i mean.(On the subject of Crutchlow, discussion around the issue of the fuel tank is extremely complex. Are you aware that Valentino was requesting that configuration? It seems to impede Cal during the first quarter of the race when it is laden but there is no doubt that it has been greatly beneficial to him this season in improving front end feel, not least in the wet at Le Mans).Alongside this, the entire thrust of your argument appears to be that Spanish riders are favourably nurtured and supported often at the expense of more deserving talent which is criminally overlooked. Yes, undoubtably this has happened, alongside the allegations of corruption and fixing, but Dorna's acquisition of the series had brought with it many positivities and benefits which often float over the heads of the collective unconsciousness comprising forum communities. I think it far more significant and indeed sinister/insidious, the substantial influence that HRC exert on both the championship and the MSMA and the possible future ramifications of this. I'd rather embrace the King of Spain and sing proudly, or rather in the absence of words, hum the Marcha Real every morning thrice before breakfast for the rest of my life thereby celebrating Spanish sovereignty over the series for all eternity than see the Evil Empire exert its will. Unfortunately it invariably does and for that reason should be far more the focus of a protracted political debate such as this than the issues of Spanish nationalism and perceived protectionism.[/quote]
Again, from my fone: (which for whatever reason doesn't format seperate paragraphs).
Amigo, I write this from Amish and Mennonite country, did u know there are grey and black buggies to distinguish the two sects? Learned that today.
Ok lets continue this exchange for ..... and giggles, eh. Always my pleasure to pick at ur racing mind.
1. Because Lex agrees with me doesn't make me wrong.2 (a.) U say I built my argument on "shifty sand"; but the counter argument offers nothing remarkably more solid by way of evidence. Its a battle of circumstancial evidence and logical witts based on extrapulated speculation. We are both attempting to explain and account for the gross over representation of Spanish riders. I say its because of Spanish facilitation u say its not that simple (which means u concede to a degree). So the nature of Spanish influence is 'complex', ok I accept...so it can be accounted directly, indirectly, and through happenstance; again i accept this notion. U said, "Nationality plays a significant part in paddock politics - of course it does, but it does not always or invariably overlook talent or greater commercial interest." which means it does 'sometimes';Im content with that, as it seems we are only separated by a matter of magnitude; I say Spanish favoritism accounts predominantly for this gross overrepresentation decidedly by design! You say, well, it is not 'always' the case, not always, well sure; No argument. ...AND isn't that what I have been saying all along? In addition I'm saying its got worse in recent years, especially now that the powers in charge have become more sophisticated!! That there are outliers doesn't nullify my contention!
2. ( B). Never underestimate the power of the mind, belief and re enforcement. Perhaps VR believed he really was infallible when he took that fateful step onto Ducati. And why not, everybody else told him he was, and the facilitated record reenforced the notion. I would have believed it too. (Though I once wrote an extensive post that outlined how I might have been able to logically convince VR that going to Ducati would have a near certain probability of failure. Though to which he might have replied, "what if I had never tried it." I said a year or so ago Casey was losing the 2012 title when his heart and more importantly, his mind were no longer in it. Others made the case it was a technical disadvantage that he was unable to mitigated (perhaps combination of both). Again, you said I trivialized the chatter he experienced and rather was a "major tire problem" that didn't suit his riding, yet as I said, he was able to reach the podium all first four races to start the season, and notched two wins in the process. Then... the big announcement came. Relevance? You say (in our separate debate) I conceded Alvaro would not have replicated Marc or Dani's record on a works and badged HRC machine, however good sir the relevant speculation is: where Marc would fair on a satellite bike, with inferior support and inferior machine to the other three current rivals on Japanese factory bikes COUPLED with how this would affect perceptions! Its irrelevant where Alvaro would be in this scheme, as my contention is Marc would NOT be leading and unlikely would have won a race. You don't need to convince me that Marc would ride the GoFun bike better than Alvaro, (or that Alvaro wouldn't ride the HRC bike as good) you need to try and convince me that Marc would have won races. And even if we entertain this thought, its a tangent to the actual debate, as I said before, this is not a debate about Marc being an outlier, but rather the propensity of the League to favor Spaniards!!!
2. (c) .1. As part of the conversation we discuss Marc by saying he is deserving of the promotion. I'm saying, ok, he is special, but the fact they paved the way supports this Spanish-centric underlying propensity of favoritism. As I said before, debating Marc is a separate argument, but I'll entertain it; lets take a look at his three wins. You think Marc would have won the AustinGP, against Dani on Alvaro's bike? .... he barely edged out his compatriot on a works RCV. How about Germany?...again, in your mind's eye he is riding Alvaro's bike and utilizing his crew against Cal who finished nearly a second off, gaining on him in the latter stages no less. You are going to convince me that Marc's specialness would have resulted in the exact same performance on the GoFun Honda as he did on the works Repsol RCV? Because thats what he would have needed to do. Marc is special, but are u convinced he would have performed the same on the works RCV that barely edged out Cal (while Lorenzo was injured) on the GoFun Honda? Sorry, I can't make that leap. As I said before, only Laguna do I give him a shot at wining on the GoFun Honda in its current trim. But with the caveat Pedro and Lorenzo were injured. And even then the not so special Bradl on the supposed works factory Honda led the race for quite a bit. Alvaro's bike did well at Laguna, but enough to have performed exactly as Marc did on the Repsol Honda?
2 (c).2. Now, I started this part of my post by saying "never underestimate the power of tge mind, belief and reenforcement". Here is my point, its easy to discount Alvaro's riding ability (and I have done so more than most) but take a guy with Alvaro's ability (that is, world class, is he not) and give him a badged works HRC with the compliment of their standard support of engineers etc., and tell the guy: "Hey! you are our man!" and I tell you, there is no telling what may result. Again, you don't need to convince me that Marc would ride the GoFun Honda better than Alvaro, the kid is clearly more talented, BUT he aint infalliable, so while we're speculating and all; He aint going to perform exactly the same on the GoFun as he has on the Repsol works bike! And, being on a truly satellite bike with its less respective compliment of support means the message he would have been getting is, you are the 'future'. Likely not getting the factory type advice and coaching that hes received. Brotha, you adamantly refuse the notion that anybody would be coaching the kid, as you refused the notion that cooler heads may have imparted some much needed guidance to the lad (which appears he didnt get in the lower category) in the form of advising him to be prudent about racing his teammate and racing in general, where you dismiss it as absurd. Why, I honestly fail to understand. The consequences of not heading such reasonable advice had consequences in Moto2, now with even more reason it would be reasonable to imagine somebody pulling him aside after a near miss and say, hey, be smart (and actually, there is evidence this very scenario took place as he has ridden more patiently, stocking his prey like a shark and making his move stick). And don't go saying this implies "team orders"; (as you have), because this is far from it. I ask, why it would not be reasonable to accept somebody tolding him a rather obvious needed advice, again is beyond me. Its simply normal to imagine somebody telling him, hey, remember when you ...... yourself out of a title in Moto2 and not only that, but almost ...... yourself out of eyesight? Well, ride smart, this is the big leagues son. Its reasonable to think that coaches are still coaching the rookie, no matter how talented.
3. Dorna vs HRC. You make the point that HRC removed the rookie rule. Does HRC have the power to do that independently? NO. Therefore, Dorna was involved. I contend this is evidence of Spanish favoritism. Mutual as the benefit was in this case, that HRC demanded it still involves Dorna's machinates my friend.
4. BSR. 'Before Spanish Rule' (thanks L8'). Do you remember when most people had to pay to have a checking account? Well, at least in the US we used to have to pay to have one. Then one day, all these commercials began to surface, "free checking". Turns out, somebody later made a documentary on how the banking industry figured out that they could leech more money off their customers by offering and signing up people to "free checking" but then gouging them on hidden fees and inflated ISF check fees, etc. It was a boom for banks. In this documentary, they actually interview the guy who came up with the idea and pitched it to all his banker buddies. That is these guys sit around figuring out how they can make more money. They became more sophisticated! MotoGP has become more sophisticated. Sure the satellite badged bikes use to beat the factory badged bikes, but not since 2006 has this happened. That my friend is 3 formulas ago! Ancient history in a "simpler" time. Thats when we learned Satellite Barros beating a factory Marlboro Ducati was no longer to be tolerated. And Roberts Jr. revealed that Honda would impose rev ceilings for their non-factory badged entries. Again, Marc would have ridden the hell out of a GoFun Honda, ok, but that still is a stretch for Honda to allow its factory bike to be beat, even by a kid that they like, as politics is politics! (...., not to mention less support, inferior kit, and messaging). You said it better than me regarding HRC politics: "I think it far more significant and indeed sinister/insidious, the substantial influence that HRC exert on both the championship and the MSMA and the possible future ramifications of this." Its not coincidence (in my mind) that satellite badged bikes no longer win races! Again...no matter how much better Marc would have ridden the GoFun RCV, its unlikely it would have won races. How this would affect the narrative of debate toward the lad would have been similar to the debate surrounding Crutchlow. Why? Because only you and a few others would have detected Marc's ability ABSENT any wins. Again, like Crutchlow, who has been on great form given his satellite bike, the majority of spectators would have been debating just how good the kid is, and just how close the satellite bike is to factory trim. Unless you are prepared to rationalize which GP he would have won from the three he has on the GoFun limey, then again, the debate would have been very similar surrounding Crutchlow today.
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This discussion has become almost pointless. Spanish sponsors and teams are not interested in running organizations without a Spanish rider for any prolonged period of time. Rather than accpet the obvious limitations to human objectivity, and argue the implications of the premise, several people are attacking the premise, which is like watching a group of chimps attempt to knock down Everest with a bag of hammers.
If a powerful group of sponsors promoted positions 5th-10th in the championship onto factory equipment, and the aliens were demoted to satellite equipment, people would cry foul as the steady stream of wins and podiums by Marquez, Rossi, Lorenzo, and Pedrosa came to a halt. The entirety of the disagreement is coming from one faction whose vanity prevents them from accepting an uncontroversial premise, and another faction who can't contemplate hypotheticals outside of what they "know" about the relative skills of the MotoGP field.
In the current competitive environment, Spanish commercial nationalism is a threat to the sport. If we want to use MotoGP as a sort of World Cup of Motorcycling, then the sport should adopt WWE rules, not the current 3-tiered-system of factory, satellite, and CRT equipment.
Who would I put on the bike other than Marquez, Lorenzo, or Pedrosa? I can't think of anyone, but what has that got to do with the debate? If I'm a nationalistic businessman I don't really care who's best. I just need a rider who is good enough to hold his own. Spain has many riders who are good enough. Spain has many sponsors. This does not mean Marquez, Lorenzo, and Pedrosa are illegitimate, but it does mean that MotoGP has a credibility problem.
Ezpeleta is talking about putting quotas on Spanish riders, but surely he is just a confused layperson like Jumkie.
If a powerful group of sponsors promoted positions 5th-10th in the championship onto factory equipment, and the aliens were demoted to satellite equipment, people would cry foul as the steady stream of wins and podiums by Marquez, Rossi, Lorenzo, and Pedrosa came to a halt. The entirety of the disagreement is coming from one faction whose vanity prevents them from accepting an uncontroversial premise, and another faction who can't contemplate hypotheticals outside of what they "know" about the relative skills of the MotoGP field.
In the current competitive environment, Spanish commercial nationalism is a threat to the sport. If we want to use MotoGP as a sort of World Cup of Motorcycling, then the sport should adopt WWE rules, not the current 3-tiered-system of factory, satellite, and CRT equipment.
Who would I put on the bike other than Marquez, Lorenzo, or Pedrosa? I can't think of anyone, but what has that got to do with the debate? If I'm a nationalistic businessman I don't really care who's best. I just need a rider who is good enough to hold his own. Spain has many riders who are good enough. Spain has many sponsors. This does not mean Marquez, Lorenzo, and Pedrosa are illegitimate, but it does mean that MotoGP has a credibility problem.
Ezpeleta is talking about putting quotas on Spanish riders, but surely he is just a confused layperson like Jumkie.
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stiefel
Your questions are answered in every thread, yet every thread ends with you asking if anyone can answer your questions. The situation has become so ridiculous that you've taken to asking questions about the unsolicited opinions and facts we've already given.
What is a good solution to the Spanish problem? I guess I'll have to spell it out. Spanish nationalism has become a problem in MotoGP b/c the sponsors can reserve factory rides (only 4 competitive factory rides) for their brand ambassadors. In the old days, this strategy was less detrimental b/c the rider made the difference. The bikes had no wheelie control, no traction control, and no mu-learning fuel computers.
Spaniards have been the same Quixotic people since the modern sponsorship era, but the competitive environment has made their nationalistic tendencies less endearing. Obviously, you can't throw Spanish sponsors out of MotoGP, and Ezpeleta's rider quota is merely a punitive stop-gap solution. However, the competitive environment can be altered by moving away from counter-productive rules like strict fuel capacity limitation, which requires onboard supercomputers to manage fuel consumption on a corner-by-corner and lap-by-lap basis. The pointless fuel limitaiton and pointless fuel mapping computers reduce factory participation and de-emphasize riding skill. The GPC could also adopt a less cantankerous control tire design, preferably a design that follows the traditional heat-perform-fade paradigm. The traditional tire wear model introduces chassis engineering compromises, which ultimately accentuate the rider's ability to maintain bike control and speed as grip levels change.
Your questions are answered in every thread, yet every thread ends with you asking if anyone can answer your questions. The situation has become so ridiculous that you've taken to asking questions about the unsolicited opinions and facts we've already given.
What is a good solution to the Spanish problem? I guess I'll have to spell it out. Spanish nationalism has become a problem in MotoGP b/c the sponsors can reserve factory rides (only 4 competitive factory rides) for their brand ambassadors. In the old days, this strategy was less detrimental b/c the rider made the difference. The bikes had no wheelie control, no traction control, and no mu-learning fuel computers.
Spaniards have been the same Quixotic people since the modern sponsorship era, but the competitive environment has made their nationalistic tendencies less endearing. Obviously, you can't throw Spanish sponsors out of MotoGP, and Ezpeleta's rider quota is merely a punitive stop-gap solution. However, the competitive environment can be altered by moving away from counter-productive rules like strict fuel capacity limitation, which requires onboard supercomputers to manage fuel consumption on a corner-by-corner and lap-by-lap basis. The pointless fuel limitaiton and pointless fuel mapping computers reduce factory participation and de-emphasize riding skill. The GPC could also adopt a less cantankerous control tire design, preferably a design that follows the traditional heat-perform-fade paradigm. The traditional tire wear model introduces chassis engineering compromises, which ultimately accentuate the rider's ability to maintain bike control and speed as grip levels change.
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mylexicon
Nice. Hey, could you be so kind to point out where you answered my questions or addressed my points in this thread? And point out those other threads? I would be happy to learn the error of my ways. But then, of course, I'd need to know where I've strayed from the path.mylexicon
Yeah, maybe even control fuel flow? Must be the way to reduce Spanish over representation.
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- siebenbürgen süße heimat!
....... spanish monopoly on titanium engine parts.
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stiefel
Upon discovering that I have no personal vendetta against Spain or Spanish riders, only an interest in watching authentic international competition (often accentuated by a bit of nationalism and pride), you felt the need to inject anti-Spanish sentiments for me?
I don't care if MotoGP has 20 Spanish riders. I do care if MotoGP has few competitive machines, and Spanish sponsors are bending/breaking rules to install their corporate pets. I don't want to take national pride out of international competition, though I do view Repsol's nationalistic hijinx as unprofessional, but I would like to see more competitive bikes and a greater emphasis on rider skill, not fuel computations.
Upon discovering that I have no personal vendetta against Spain or Spanish riders, only an interest in watching authentic international competition (often accentuated by a bit of nationalism and pride), you felt the need to inject anti-Spanish sentiments for me?
I don't care if MotoGP has 20 Spanish riders. I do care if MotoGP has few competitive machines, and Spanish sponsors are bending/breaking rules to install their corporate pets. I don't want to take national pride out of international competition, though I do view Repsol's nationalistic hijinx as unprofessional, but I would like to see more competitive bikes and a greater emphasis on rider skill, not fuel computations.
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mylexicon
I don't think I have 'injected' anything for you. This discussion was about the over representation of Spanish riders, was it not? In fact, one of the things most of us could agree one was that Spanish riders are over represented.
This community is pretty international. Imagine if we each were filthy rich and had money to spend on a racing team. Myself being Minnesotan/Spanish, would more than likely look around my neck of the woods for a fast kid to put my money on. Not only to help the local community, but to put a friendly young face on a product or company I own to use as a marketing tool in the country or geographical location I sell most of my product.
I don't understand why some see Repsol (SPANISH oil company) as country biased, or that they should fund another countries young riders. Stoner was on one commercial in Spain, and all he said was "gracias" as the very end of it. He was not usable in Repsol's main market. Pedrosa, Marquez, and Layla Sanz (Spanish womens Enduro) area all over billboards, magazines an such.
Curve, talk to some of them Texas Petro companies, see what they can do. Jumkie, people in Cali giving money to Benito? The brits could send some letters to BP. Paul Bird Racing has a brit going around in circles, too bad he sucks...
I don't understand why some see Repsol (SPANISH oil company) as country biased, or that they should fund another countries young riders. Stoner was on one commercial in Spain, and all he said was "gracias" as the very end of it. He was not usable in Repsol's main market. Pedrosa, Marquez, and Layla Sanz (Spanish womens Enduro) area all over billboards, magazines an such.
Curve, talk to some of them Texas Petro companies, see what they can do. Jumkie, people in Cali giving money to Benito? The brits could send some letters to BP. Paul Bird Racing has a brit going around in circles, too bad he sucks...
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baturro
BP is no longer british petroleum
Just BP.
Nothing to do with us anymore.
BP is no longer british petroleum
Just BP.
Nothing to do with us anymore.
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