Ben Spies MotoGp Failure ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Oct 8 2009, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Because i personally believe that JT is not in the same conversation as Spies when comparing talent.

That may be way off base,time will tell. There was a lot of naysayers when he came to WSBK also,except for the people that know bike racing and know Spies.There were a few that said he would do exactly what he is doing.

How the .... do you work that out? JT was WSBK Champion. He beat the riders Spies is battling with at the moment. I will be very surprised if his results next year will be any better than JT's. Maybe a place or 2 more, who knows? One thing he might get is better support from Yamaha than Toseland has had.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick.. Rossi.. 46 No1... @ Oct 8 2009, 09:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How the .... do you work that out? JT was WSBK Champion. He beat the riders Spies is battling with at the moment. I will be very surprised if his results next year will be any better than JT's. Maybe a place or 2 more, who knows? One thing he might get is better support from Yamaha than Toseland has had.

Umm Spies is a rookie. New bike, tires, tracks, lifestyle. We can go into the race numbers but I get the feeling you have selective reading so I am wasting my time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick.. Rossi.. 46 No1... @ Oct 8 2009, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How the .... do you work that out? JT was WSBK Champion. He beat the riders Spies is battling with at the moment. I will be very surprised if his results next year will be any better than JT's. Maybe a place or 2 more, who knows? One thing he might get is better support from Yamaha than Toseland has had.
No knock to Toseland, but what he achieved in seven seasons, Spies has done in one. That's why the comparison isn't a good one. Nobody has come into WSBK and dominated like this. The closest comparisons you could make would be Vermeulen or Bayliss and neither one of them dominated in quite this fashion straight out of the gate.

It would be like saying what's the difference between Nicky Hayden and Valentino Rossi? They've both won world championships, so how can you say one is better than the other? It's not all black and white, you have to put results into context.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Oct 7 2009, 12:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I've got to disagree with you on this. Toseland managed 16 wins in seven seasons. Spies has 12 in 13 meetings, an only seeing the vast majority of these circuits this season either when he shows up on Thursday or in preseason testing. Toseland gathered those results in a far greater span of time than Spies, and he had two seasons in WSS to help him in track knowledge. As far as I'm concerned there is no comparison between the two, it just so happens that Spies has spent a year in a series that Toseland has spent the majority of his career in.

I agree with you however, to be fair, Toesland raced against Bayliss. Getting wins on that guy was like trying to get wins on Spies this season, that is to say, they are hard to come by.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Like I illustrated in an earlier post, look at what riders like Hodgson, Xaus, Byrne, Ellison and Tamada have done since they left MotoGP. Hodgson and Xaus can split a handful of race wins aboard Ducatis, Byrne has a domestic championship and has disappointed in WSBK (regrettably, I'm a big Shakey fan and hope he can come good with an Aprilia for 2010), and Tamada has fallen off the face of the planet.

Well how competitive was their ride? Xaus had a few decent showing, but now is struggling on a bike that didn't quite make a bang. Byrne is on a decent ride right now, and only gets into the top 5 at Ducati tracks like Imola and S. Africa, ad frankly, he might have been out of his league in GP. Ellison, never belonged in GP either actually. Tamada had some decent showings in WSBK and battle a few times but nothing really to write home about. So yeah I agree with you Austin.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Edwards and Bayliss are the freaks of the WSB to MotoGP phenomenon. Edwards has become a very useful development rider and has proven he's the quickest outside the aliens on a consistent basis. Bayliss was a casualty of the Ducati Marlboro attitude. He was never given the crew he wanted in 2003 and 2004. When he was finally given the crew he wanted in Valencia 2006, he won the thing convincingly. If Suppo wasn't so stubborn I think Bayliss would have had a very successful GP career.

That's weird, it seems the new consensus is Rossi developed alone.

Totally agree with you on Bayliss. I think we got cheated out of seeming a real MotoGP star. He was smart to say .... these politics, I'm going to a place where I can have the proper tools to win. Actually, thinking about the man that is Bayliss, he did belong in WSBK...MotoGP is much more tabloidesk and not really a good fit for Troys' no nonsense approach.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Haga is a question mark in my mind. He's always been fast on a Superbike but for whatever reason was never able to put it together in Grand Prix. He took a podium wildcarding but couldn't find that speed when he was at Red Bull Yamaha in 2001. Despite McCoy's brief success there, I'm not convinced that team was as strong as McCoy's results led everyone to believe. He was never able to recapture that form and no teammate was ever able to do much, either. Then Haga went on the Cube and had similar results to Edwards. Haga wasn't thrown out of MotoGP, he left. Was his riding style compatible with Grand Prix? I don't know, results would indicate no. My opinion is that the talent is there, you compare his season with Edwards's in 2003 and you tell me otherwise. I just think he's a pure Superbiker through and through, and unless he was able to take the fight to Rossi week in and week out, he would rather ride a Super.

Few modern day 'superbikers' have adapted to the GP. Add that the best 250 riders are given the best rides, and you have what you have described above. Great post Austi. As I read it, it almost sounded like Arrabi, and that my friend is a high compliment.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Oct 8 2009, 11:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It would be like saying what's the difference between Nicky Hayden and Valentino Rossi? They've both won world championships, so how can you say one is better than the other?

Good point. Nicky is hand over fist the better man.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Oct 8 2009, 07:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No knock to Toseland, but what he achieved in seven seasons, Spies has done in one. That's why the comparison isn't a good one. Nobody has come into WSBK and dominated like this. The closest comparisons you could make would be Vermeulen or Bayliss and neither one of them dominated in quite this fashion straight out of the gate.

It would be like saying what's the difference between Nicky Hayden and Valentino Rossi? They've both won world championships, so how can you say one is better than the other? It's not all black and white, you have to put results into context.

Ok, lets just wait and see eh?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 8 2009, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree with you however, to be fair, Toesland raced against Bayliss. Getting wins on that guy was like trying to get wins on Spies this season, that is to say, they are hard to come by.
True that he did spend two seasons having to ride against Bayliss and Edwards, but he also had a season where his strongest competitor was Regis Laconi. His career has seen the peaks and valleys in the talent pool of WSBK, that's for certain.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 8 2009, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well how competitive was their ride? Xaus had a few decent showing, but now is struggling on a bike that didn't quite make a bang. Byrne is on a decent ride right now, and only gets into the top 5 at Ducati tracks like Imola and S. Africa, ad frankly, he might have been out of his league in GP. Ellison, never belonged in GP either actually. Tamada had some decent showings in WSBK and battle a few times but nothing really to write home about. So yeah I agree with you Austin.
Some of them were on poor equipment, some of them never belong in Grand Prix to begin with, some of them were never able to demonstrate their abilities in the same way again. But yeah, on the whole there were a lot of names who have failed to achieve in any major way.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 8 2009, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Few modern day 'superbikers' have adapted to the GP. Add that the best 250 riders are given the best rides, and you have what you have described above. Great post Austi. As I read it, it almost sounded like Arrabi, and that my friend is a high compliment.
Much obliged.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick.. Rossi.. 46 No1... @ Oct 8 2009, 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ok, lets just wait and see eh?
That's about the only way this debate will get resolved.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dion @ Oct 7 2009, 05:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thanks to those who put there thoughts forward on the topic of the thread.
Thanks also to the others who thought I was bashing spies!!!!
I thinks hes very very good, but he aint Top 4 or 5 for that matter. he'll be behind simoncelli thats for sure.
I think JT is a good comparison against Spies, I aint blowing smoke up JTs ... but he is a good rider, very good superbike rider. World Champion just like, Neil Hodgson, Troy Bayliss, Colin Edwards, and Other good superbike riders Ruben Xaus, shane Byrne, James Ellison, Mokoto Tamada, Nori Haga. all of which rode 4 stroke MotoGP bikes, and have failed to deliver, and so Ive realised once and for all SBK riders cant hack MotoGP.
Maybe Spies will be different, I for one hope so.
Dude this is what most people said right when they found out about spies going to wsbk.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick.. Rossi.. 46 No1... @ Oct 8 2009, 12:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How the .... do you work that out? JT was WSBK Champion. He beat the riders Spies is battling with at the moment. I will be very surprised if his results next year will be any better than JT's. Maybe a place or 2 more, who knows? One thing he might get is better support from Yamaha than Toseland has had.

Big difference tho . . . is that Spies is doing it in his rookie year on the clearly
less competitive Yamaha - the marque that has never won a WSBK championship.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Oct 9 2009, 10:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Big difference tho . . . is that Spies is doing it in his rookie year on the clearly
less competitive Yamaha - the marque that has never won a WSBK championship.
Exactly. I have no problem at all with james, I thought he looked very promising early last year and I don't really understand what has happened this year, other than perhaps him not being able to adapt to the bridgestones. If edwards was the yamaha corporation backed guy this year presumably the same was the case last year, although yamaha after rossi's dominant win last year may have felt less need to disseminate their best technology widely. But even comparing his last year in wsbk with spies's first year in wsbk is fairly favourable to ben; I would not recommend comparison of their respective first years in wsbk to any jt supporter.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Oct 9 2009, 06:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Exactly. I have no problem at all with james, I thought he looked very promising early last year and I don't really understand what has happened this year, other than perhaps him not being able to adapt to the bridgestones. If edwards was the yamaha corporation backed guy this year presumably the same was the case last year, although yamaha after rossi's dominant win last year may have felt less need to disseminate their best technology widely. But even comparing his last year in wsbk with spies's first year in wsbk is fairly favourable to ben; I would not recommend comparison of their respective first years in wsbk to any jt supporter.
Come on Michael, I expect more from you... What happened this year was simple. JT cried to the Tech Trois powers that be that he could kick ... with Colie's team manager so they obliged him... Colie ended up kicking his decade younger teammate's ... even after JT got his dream team... SO THEN JT GOT SEN'T HOME AS HE SHOULD'VE BEEN... simple n'est pas?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Oct 9 2009, 04:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Come on Michael, I expect more from you... What happened this year was simple. JT cried to the Tech Trois powers that be that he could kick ... with Colie's team manager so they obliged him... Colie ended up kicking his decade younger teammate's ... even after JT got his dream team... SO THEN JT GOT SEN'T HOME AS HE SHOULD'VE BEEN... simple n'est pas?

+1

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 9 2009, 04:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's weird, it seems the new consensus is Rossi developed alone.





Few modern day 'superbikers' have adapted to the GP. Add that the best 250 riders are given the best rides, and you have what you have described above. Great post Austi. As I read it, it almost sounded like Arrabi, and that my friend is a high compliment.

What about Nicky getting the best seat in the house at HRC straight from Superbike? Colin has always had a good seat and now Spies has. Nicky summed it up best when he said GP is deeper water.....only problem is WSBK has a coral reef you can see and at present Motogp is like looking into the Pacific trench, no colour just black.......

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dion @ Oct 7 2009, 10:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think JT is a good comparison against Spies, I aint blowing smoke up JTs ... but he is a good rider, very good superbike rider. World Champion just like, Neil Hodgson, Troy Bayliss, Colin Edwards, and Other good superbike riders Ruben Xaus, shane Byrne, James Ellison, Mokoto Tamada, Nori Haga. all of which rode 4 stroke MotoGP bikes, and have failed to deliver, and so Ive realised once and for all SBK riders cant hack MotoGP.
Maybe Spies will be different, I for one hope so.

There was another good SBK rider (who happens to be American also) that switched to MotoGP and rode a 4 stroke GP bike. He did quite well. His name is Nicky Hayden.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Oct 9 2009, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Come on Michael, I expect more from you... What happened this year was simple. JT cried to the Tech Trois powers that be that he could kick ... with Colie's team manager so they obliged him... Colie ended up kicking his decade younger teammate's ... even after JT got his dream team... SO THEN JT GOT SEN'T HOME AS HE SHOULD'VE BEEN... simple n'est pas?
What I don't understand is his performance this year relative to his performance last year, not colin beating him.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Oct 9 2009, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What I don't understand is his performance this year relative to his performance last year, not colin beating him.
He's scored marginally more points per race this year, for whatever it's worth. He didn't take a huge step backward (and certainly didn't make the expected step forward).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Oct 10 2009, 12:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He's scored marginally more points per race this year, for whatever it's worth. He didn't take a huge step backward (and certainly didn't make the expected step forward).
On tracks suited to the michelins he was much closer to the pointy end though, especially in practice. It has also probably been easier to score points this year as well, with less bikes and more dnfs(did not finish or did not front) by leading riders.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Oct 10 2009, 06:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What I don't understand is his performance this year relative to his performance last year, not colin beating him.
I think there are two main reasons for this. One Colie pointed out in pre-season/first few races: Adapting to the B-Stones takes an adjustment in riding style which JT has hasn't really mastered. Two the 800s high corner speed/250 riding style just doesn't come naturally or easily to the superbike specialist, JT.

compared to his teammate he has made a huge step backwards....

now we considering colin has NOT made a huge step forwards, JT had to go