Ben Spies MotoGp Failure ?

here goes with my opinion.

i had high hopes for Toseland this season, he keeps blaming his pre-season crashes, and im not convinced that’s all it is, either Edwards is a much better rider or JT just cant set the bike up. No offence to Edwards but he’s had his chance on a full Yamaha R1 and underperformed, the difference he has to Rossi now is maybe 2 or 3 tenths more than it was (on average) when they were team mates. So I don’t think Edwards is anything special really, although this year the gap between Factory and satellite riders does seem to have grown.
I think Spies is a very special talent, whether he is quite as good as the 4 Aliens remains to be seen, but I think he will beat everyone else that is currently in moto Gp with the exception of Melandri when he joins Honda.

So next season: I think you will get your 4 Aliens at the front, then closely followed by Melandri and Spies, then probably Simoncelli and Edwards close behind. However I wouldn’t be surprised if Spies gets a few podiums and even wins a race.

As special as spies is, Lorenzo, stoner, pedrosa and rossi are ridiculously good riders and without a factory bike it will be hard to stay with these guys.

The thing im also mega curious about is Simoncelli Vs melandri who’m I think will both finish higher than Dovi.


looking forward to the spies wildcard now anyway

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Oct 16 2009, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I've never fully bought that the rules have allways been in favor of Ducati and it was a joy to get my point proven when they went MotoGP: These guys know how to build race engines [period]
They also attract the best riders in the wsbk and together that's a pretty strong force regardless of engine configuration. True, there has been years where the rules favoured the ducati, just no every year allways. They've also done their homework in the racing department.
You mentioned how Haga or anyone else never won the title on the Yamaha, but surly taking the title now should be a walk in the park?


For the zillionth time... I was speaking only about Yamaha in the context of WSBK which is
run by the Italians. As regards "a walk in the park" that remains to be seen. But given
the statistics, one championship won on a Yamaha (if it happens) out of 20 seasons where
Ducati has dominated is a reasonably clear indication that (given the WSBK regulations) that the
Yamaha has not been competitive in the WSBK series. It has been suggested that since MGP went to
a 4-stroke formula - that Japanese R&D funding has been massively reduced for superbikes and then shifted to MGP in the belief that buyers will view the shift to 4-strokes as an indication that MGP bikes and streetbikes will be perceived as more "similar", and that MGP championships will have a greater influence on streetbike sales. Whether any of that is true is something folks could debate for pages and pages ad naseum. But that seems to be the current marketing philosophy. If we accept that premise, it would IMHO - make a win by Spies - that much more impressive.

Anyhoo - Ducati hasn't accomplished much (in terms of overall results) anywhere else
before Stoner came along. They haven't been competitive in any great numbers in any
other series. Agreed they make a great engine - but that's not enough. That they make the sexiest looking bikes around is not a matter for contention. Period.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Oct 17 2009, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>For the zillionth time... I was speaking only about Yamaha in the context of WSBK which is
run by the Italians.
You could have fooled me.: <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>WSBK rules which have always been blatantly skewed in favor of the
Ducatis. If you don't like that I pick up on that, blame yourself for kicking to the left and right, not me for replying to your "kicks".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>As regards "a walk in the park" that remains to be seen.
How does that remain to be seen. There are only two rounds left and they are still very much in the fight. If it was a "walk in the park" the championship would have been desided allready (see bailiss 2008 for the meaning of walk in the park).
First you say Haga got the stuff to challenge the Ducati riders but no the bike. Now he got the bike, it should have been a walk in the park but it isn't.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>But given
the statistics, one championship won on a Yamaha (if it happens) out of 20 seasons where
Ducati has dominated is a reasonably clear indication that (given the WSBK regulations) that the
Yamaha has not been competitive in the WSBK series.
I woud rather say that if it happens they prove that they indeed are competetive this season.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>It has been suggested that since MGP went to
a 4-stroke formula - that Japanese R&D funding has been massively reduced for superbikes and then shifted to MGP in the belief that buyers will view the shift to 4-strokes as an indication that MGP bikes and streetbikes will be perceived as more "similar", and that MGP championships will have a greater influence on streetbike sales. Whether any of that is true is something folks could debate for pages and pages ad naseum. But that seems to be the current marketing philosophy. If we accept that premise, it would IMHO - make a win by Spies - that much more impressive.
Indeed impressive but as far as the bike goes it is no more impressive than the Honda vicotries. Besides, AFAIK their withdrawal from WSBK as pure factory teams were first of all a protest against the control tire rule when it arrived. Somebody talked together and they all pulled out simultaniously.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Anyhoo - Ducati hasn't accomplished much (in terms of overall results) anywhere else
before Stoner came along. They haven't been competitive in any great numbers in any
other series. Agreed they make a great engine - but that's not enough. That they make the sexiest looking bikes around is not a matter for contention. Period.
And the point was?
They do have a MotoGP title both manufacturer, and rider, and they have multiple WSBK titles. They have been competetive before and after stoners title. What more is there to say? Do they have to be present at every club race in every country to be accomplished? Of course not. In fact they are extreemnly accomplished, competing with giant companies Honda and Yamaha for the crown as the top Racing brand.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Oct 17 2009, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You could have fooled me.:

Could have fooled you . . . re: what exactly? Please specify.

If you don't like that I pick up on that, blame yourself for kicking to the left and right, not me for replying to your "kicks".


If you "didn't pick up on that" - it's either because you came in - mid thread - or simply because you didn't read the original post (which was very specific) with much care. If you missed my central point - which was made in very simple language - it's because you allowed yourself to be easily distracted by peripheral talking points made much further on in the dialog in reply to "arguments" from the two other people trying to create a debate - where there was none.


How does that remain to be seen. There are only two rounds left and they are still very much in the fight. If it was a "walk in the park" the championship would have been desided allready (see bailiss 2008 for the meaning of walk in the park).

There's a huge gap between being "very much in the fight" and "a walk in the park." It was a close battle last season, and Haga (who's been known to throw it away at the last minute) lost to Bayliss. If it happened last year - it can happen again. He's a year older and under that much more pressure to capture that elusive title.

First you say Haga got the stuff to challenge the Ducati riders but no the bike.

The last season seems ample proof of that. He lost. Had Haga been on
the second of the two factory Ducatis - he might well have beaten Bayliss - conjecture -
yes but not unreasonable conjecture

Now he got the bike, it should have been a walk in the park but it isn't.

If it weren't for the Spies factor - I would agree. Spies has shown himself
to be head and shoulders - superior to the field of riders left over from last season.
If Haga wins this year - his championship will always be remembered as being
largely gifted to him by the mechanical DNFs and the Yamaha running out of gas
when Spies was leading and the Scud-job by Fabrizio. And no this is not a hatchet
job on Haga. I have huge admiration for him. But in head-to-head battles
Spies has been the superior rider in the majority of races this season.

I woud rather say that if it happens they prove that they indeed are competetive this season.

You say "rather" but that's not contrary to what I said in the first place.

Indeed impressive but as far as the bike goes it is no more impressive than the Honda vicotries. Besides, AFAIK their withdrawal from WSBK as pure factory teams were first of all a protest against the control tire rule when it arrived. Somebody talked together and they all pulled out simultaniously.

Whether Yamaha winning the title would be more impressive (than Honda) - is immaterial. Given Yamaha's record in WSBK thus far, and a budget that most agree is considerably smaller than that of Honda - a first championship by Yamaha would be plenty impressive.

And the point was?
They do have a MotoGP title both manufacturer, and rider, and they have multiple WSBK titles. They have been competetive before and after stoners title. What more is there to say? Do they have to be present at every club race in every country to be accomplished? Of course not. In fact they are extreemnly accomplished, competing with giant companies Honda and Yamaha for the crown as the top Racing brand.

Come on now... you're just being willfully obtuse. The statement made pertained to the
<u>WSBK championship only</u>.

Ducati has accomplished much as boutique manufacturer, but historically, outside of WSBK - their efforts haven't garnered much (Stoner's accomplishments aside) <u>in the way of actual wins</u>. My original statement said "Ducati hasn't accomplished much (in terms of overall results)" By results I think it's pretty clear I was talking about winning races - not just selling a lot of bikes.

Could have fooled you . . . re: what exactly? Please specify.

[/quote]
You claim you talk about Yamaha's WSBK results, however you choose to give plenty of negative "kicks" towards Ducati. That's double communication and you know it damned well.
For the third time: You were NOT "speaking only about Yamaha in the context of WSBK" and a zillion repetitions doesn't make it more true
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>There's a huge gap between being "very much in the fight" and "a walk in the park." It was a close battle last season, and Haga (who's been known to throw it away at the last minute) lost to Bayliss. If it happened last year - it can happen again. He's a year older and under that much more pressure to capture that elusive title.
Yeah that last year was a true thriller. 6 races to go and haga were 129 points down on bayliss, four races and it closed down to an exciting 89 and only two races to go and it got really thrilling with only 85 points up to Bayliss. The excitment were for most people a bit down by the fact that Haga couldn't even theoretically win the championship any more. Last year was a walk in the park, this year is very much in the fight. Let's stop arguening the facts ok?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>The last season seems ample proof of that. He lost. Had Haga been on
the second of the two factory Ducatis - he might well have beaten Bayliss - conjecture -
yes but not unreasonable conjecture
IF, a lot of if's but the fact is that Haga himself threw away last year's championship fight in the start of it, nothing more nothing less.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>If it weren't for the Spies factor - I would agree. Spies has shown himself
to be head and shoulders - superior to the field of riders left over from last season.
If Haga wins this year - his championship will always be remembered as being
largely gifted to him by the mechanical DNFs and the Yamaha running out of gas
when Spies was leading and the Scud-job by Fabrizio. And no this is not a hatchet
job on Haga. I have huge admiration for him. But in head-to-head battles
Spies has been the superior rider in the majority of races this season.
Spies have absoulutly been the fastest rider and I agree in what you say about him and haga and the championship, just that this would not have been possible with:
1. a Ducati wastly superior to the rest of the field.
2. a Yamha that wasn't up to the competition.
The Yamaha is as good as any bike out there. It has had it's technical problems and that's not uncommon for a totaly new bike/engine, but considering this is Spies first year in WSBK with so many new tracks his performance is nothing but sensational.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Come on now... you're just being willfully obtuse. The statement made pertained to the
WSBK championship only.

Ducati has accomplished much as boutique manufacturer, but historically, outside of WSBK - their efforts haven't garnered much (Stoner's accomplishments aside) in the way of actual wins. My original statement said "Ducati hasn't accomplished much (in terms of overall results)" By results I think it's pretty clear I was talking about winning races - not just selling a lot of bikes.
I still don't get it and i've not mentioned selling bikes or boutique stuff. Ducati has a great race history and when it comes to selling bikes and gadgets that came with their WSBK success and hardly a historical accomplishment. Their sales success recent years has been refered to an excample of how important racing success is and how it can be worth the effort.
As the company grow they can invest even more into racing and do so in a very impressive way. Their first year in motoGP was very impressive indeeed, they steped wrong the second year and then slowly came back untill it exploded in '07. I fail to see how you can use lack of motoGP success in the past as an argument for anything happening in the present. They do have a history in racing they can be proud about allthough not all companies can be as successful as Honda, so I fail to see your point. Most of all I really hope you are not trying to suggest that becuase they don't have a history that you find fitting for a racing company they must have been cheating or something to win those WSBK titles.

PS! I don't like their gadgets, their "life style" comercials or their prices either but a do accnowledge their skills and their wast success in racing as nothing but exeptional.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Oct 18 2009, 09:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Could have fooled you . . . re: what exactly? Please specify.


You claim you talk about Yamaha's WSBK results, however you choose to give plenty of negative "kicks" towards Ducati. That's double communication and you know it damned well.
For the third time: You were NOT "speaking only about Yamaha in the context of WSBK" and a zillion repetitions doesn't make it more true

B-Fish... yer just going to have to trust me that I know what I meant when I wrote it. Who would know better than me?

Yeah that last year was a true thriller. 6 races to go and haga were 129 points down on bayliss, four races and it closed down to an exciting 89 and only two races to go and it got really thrilling with only 85 points up to Bayliss. The excitment were for most people a bit down by the fact that Haga couldn't even theoretically win the championship any more. Last year was a walk in the park, this year is very much in the fight. Let's stop arguening the facts ok?

My point was that the competition was good, but Haga's talents were not enough to overcome the shortcoming of the Yamaha. But that on a Ducati equal to Bayliss' he might have won. Re: the Flaminni's favorable bias towards the Italian brand Ducati - it's generally accepted by most knowedgeable people to be so. Yes - I know that popular opinion is not hard cold evidence. I can offer no conclusive "proof" that WSBK rules are skewed towards the Ducatis, but the all the years of domination by them is a pretty fair indicator - not to mention the sway that Ducati has demonstrated such as the year when they were getting their ..... handed to them and they insisted on being allowed to bump up to 1200 CCs by threatening to leave the series.

IF, a lot of if's but the fact is that Haga himself threw away last year's championship fight in the start of it, nothing more nothing less.

Spies have absoulutly been the fastest rider and I agree in what you say about him and haga and the championship, just that this would not have been possible with:
1. a Ducati wastly superior to the rest of the field.
2. a Yamha that wasn't up to the competition.
The Yamaha is as good as any bike out there. It has had it's technical problems and that's not uncommon for a totaly new bike/engine, but considering this is Spies first year in WSBK with so many new tracks his performance is nothing but sensational.

If this year's Yamaha is so good, why are Sykes and all the other riders in the Superbike class all so far to the rear of the pack? Are only mediocre riders racing Yamahas?

I still don't get it and i've not mentioned selling bikes or boutique stuff. Ducati has a great race history and when it comes to selling bikes and gadgets that came with their WSBK success and hardly a historical accomplishment. Their sales success recent years has been refered to an excample of how important racing success is and how it can be worth the effort.
As the company grow they can invest even more into racing and do so in a very impressive way. Their first year in motoGP was very impressive indeeed, they steped wrong the second year and then slowly came back untill it exploded in '07. I fail to see how you can use lack of motoGP success in the past as an argument for anything happening in the present. They do have a history in racing they can be proud about allthough not all companies can be as successful as Honda, so I fail to see your point. Most of all I really hope you are not trying to suggest that becuase they don't have a history that you find fitting for a racing company they must have been cheating or something to win those WSBK titles.

There are a lot of different ways to measure success. In <u>racing</u>, the yardstick is races and or championships won. Outside the realm of WSBK where they've enjoyed favored status - there hasn't been a long history of either in the Ducati garage.

PS! I don't like their gadgets, their "life style" comercials or their prices either but a do accnowledge their skills and their wast success in racing as nothing but exeptional.

Get your quoting together.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>B-Fish... yer just going to have to trust me that I know what I meant when I wrote it. Who would know better than me?
I start too feel like I'm beating a dead horse here.
I can't argue against what you ment when you wrote that, I can only argue against what you actually wrote. If it's subconsious, fraudian slip, intentional... I don't know and I dont care, the fact remains that you wrote about Ducati. That's 100% undeniable. And as you write about them expect a reply about them or do not bring them into your argument.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>My point was that the competition was good, but Haga's talents were not enough to overcome the shortcoming of the Yamaha

I'll be happy to discuss Ducati vs the rest any time K but you have to come up with something better.
Your "Duacti is favoured thats why the others don't win" is an old one and there has been times when twins, not Ducati, had a slight advantage but please don't start an argument against Ducati based on Hagas piss poor performance last year. Haga's bike were very competetive as he proved on ocations with double wins and all but his first half of the season were a total disaster and made so by non other than himslef. Neukirchner were way ahead and the only real challenger to Bayliss but he got injured. Corser came and went, Checa came and went and finally on a late charge Hage came up to take second but effectivly the only time he were in the title fight were before the first race of the season.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>If this year's Yamaha is so good, why are Sykes and all the other riders in the Superbike class all so far to the rear of the pack? Are only mediocre riders racing Yamahas?
What Sykes are doing is way outside the point. As discussed here before the bikes potential must be juged by the best rider or even what a better rider could have done with it. It's not interesting what lesser riders do with it. In motoGP we've seen more of this: Ducati since '07, yamaha up to '08.
And again, despite you trying to limit this to WSBK, top national SBK series is very much of interest (the australian pole sitter would have gotten 14th in the motoGP grid) and the yamaha are doing strong several places. The factories are making standard race kits that are very close to the actual factory teams. Proven by wild card riders from the same national series.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Oct 18 2009, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Get your quoting together.

I start too feel like I'm beating a dead horse here.
I can't argue against what you ment when you wrote that, I can only argue against what you actually wrote. If it's subconsious, fraudian slip, intentional... I don't know and I dont care, the fact remains that you wrote about Ducati. That's 100% undeniable. And as you write about them expect a reply about them or do not bring them into your argument.

This all getting so watered down and diffused that after a while it's hard to keep track of what it
is we're debating.

That said - I mentioned Ducati for the purpose of giving "context" - because they've been the brand to beat, the toughest competitor in WSBK. My point being that no-one else
riding Yamaha has been able to seriously compete against the factory Ducati teams. Ergo - Spies' accomplishments this season - are arguably that much more impressive.

I'll be happy to discuss Ducati vs the rest any time K but you have to come up with something better.
Your "Duacti is favoured thats why the others don't win" is an old one and there has been times when twins, not Ducati, had a slight advantage but please don't start an argument against Ducati based on Hagas piss poor performance last year. Haga's bike were very competetive as he proved on ocations with double wins and all but his first half of the season were a total disaster and made so by non other than himslef. Neukirchner were way ahead and the only real challenger to Bayliss but he got injured. Corser came and went, Checa came and went and finally on a late charge Hage came up to take second but effectivly the only time he were in the title fight were before the first race of the season.

As to Ducati vs the rest... I've already said - there's no way I can conclusively document the rules being skewed in their favor - but I just have to trust my eyes and common sense on this one - whether you choose to believe it or not. Ducati has not dominated any other series in the world (not even close) except WSBK. I and a lot of other people would take that as strong empirical evidence.


What Sykes are doing is way outside the point. As discussed here before the bikes potential must be juged by the best rider or even what a better rider could have done with it. It's not interesting what lesser riders do with it. In motoGP we've seen more of this: Ducati since '07, yamaha up to '08.And again, despite you trying to limit this to WSBK, top national SBK series is very much of interest (the australian pole sitter would have gotten 14th in the motoGP grid) and the yamaha are doing strong several places. The factories are making standard race kits that are very close to the actual factory teams. Proven by wild card riders from the same national series.

Maybe not interesting to you - but the fact remains that no-one else has been seriously competitive in WSBK on a Yamaha besides Spies. There being no evidence to the contrary - I would say again - this is strong empirical evidence that the Yamaha has not gained parity with Honda and Ducati in WSBK - yet.

BTW - an Irishman I met recently did tell me that in Irish and Australian series that Yamaha was
"The Bike To Beat". And this year of course we've seen Yamaha break the Suzuki stranglehold in the AMA (for what that's worth) series.

PS - You may have gathered that I don't understand how the quote function works to break it up into separate sections. I'm not too proud to ask for help. Enlighten me. I pressed the " for each part I want to quote - but then it all appears as one contiguous piece of text.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Oct 19 2009, 12:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would say again - this is strong empirical evidence that the Yamaha has not gained parity with Honda and Ducati in WSBK - yet.[/b]

Perhaps because they haven't yet attracted a complete team of truly top end riders, rather than a technical disadvantage.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Oct 19 2009, 08:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps because they haven't yet attracted a complete team of truly top end riders, rather than a technical disadvantage.

Perhaps. But one would think that after 20 years in WSBK - they'd have come closer - more often - to accomplishing that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yello13 @ Oct 14 2009, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And only won 7 out of 20 races in AMA. The amazing yamaha R1 has also won a grand total of zero races so far in the Australian Championship.

I think it's more important to point out that the Yamaha R1 doesn't race against any factory Ducatis in BSB. Camier hasn't had to battle Shaky on an Airwaves Ducati and he hasn't had to face Haslam on an HM Plant Honda. We should have been treated to a Guintoli/Camier scrap this season, but it wasn't to be.

I believe the Yamaha is the best of the rest, but not by much. Honda is very close by and if not for the enormous Moto2 distraction, I think Ten Kate would have played a much bigger role in this year's championship.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Oct 19 2009, 06:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think it's more important to point out that the Yamaha R1 doesn't race against any factory Ducatis in BSB. Camier hasn't had to battle Shaky on an Airwaves Ducati and he hasn't had to face Haslam on an HM Plant Honda. We should have been treated to a Guintoli/Camier scrap this season, but it wasn't to be.
I'm not sure what your point is regarding the factory team. because although closly supported the Japanese factories does not have offical factory teams in SBK at all. It could be argued that Ten Kate and the others are de facto factory teams but at least officially it was only Ducati that are running pure Factory teams. Now-days you can probably put Aprillia and BMW on that list.
And last time I was inside the WSBK padock for a race weekend there were no doubt at all who had the largest and most professional team.