2024 Gran Premio Estrella Galicia 0,0 de España - Circuit Jerez

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if MM wouldn’t have crashed out twice leading a race he would be leading the championship. It could be called bad luck.

Yesterday everyone crashed except martin, today nobody crashed besides martin.

Nobody gets lucky every race

He can still have a shot, even this year because no one else is dominant but he need to stop crashing
 
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ApriliaRS250 said:
if MM wouldn’t crashed out twice leading a race he would be leading the championship

It took him 3 races to get to grips with the duke plus some bad luck

He can still have a shot even this year because no one else is dominant but he need to stop crashing
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I believe he can win title but won't put money in a bet. Only time I did bet was 300€ at start of 2019 season, on Marc to win title as it was almost guaranteed money at 0.55 odds. For 2020 I had bad feeling after such dominant display in 2019 races, that something will happen, so I didn't bet, and sadly it did. I would put my money again on Marc if he is in factory Ducati and won this years championship. I just don't have confidence and watching him currently in races I'm expecting crashing every corner.
 
michaelm said:
I am encouraged by this race as was MM obviously.

Credit to Bagnaia for the two fantastic laps that won him the race, but MM even elected to take second when Bagnaia would have taken them both down on this track which is close to Bagnaia’s best while being the track where MM had his career threatening injury. MM shrugged off the tyre marks on his leathers, but both he and his crew chief said the race didn’t go according to plan, partly due to Bagnaia’s dynamite first lap of course, but MM said he was stiff from the fall on Saturday and loosened up during the race. Getting away in front is probably his best chance to win as he has been trying to do, he looks to be at a disadvantage in a dogfight on a GP23.

Bagnaia is obviously fast and has now won 20 races and two titles, but one of the greatest of all time together with MM as Nick Harris called it is perhaps a little premature, particularly since Ducati were basically handed a bike advantage.

I thought I was being unfair in disliking him partly because of his Valentino Rossi association, but the post race scenes with Valentino himself on hand have assuaged any guilty feelings I might have had.
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I agree entirely on those 2 laps Pecco rode. Nothing but kudos to him for putting in those lap times...but they were lap times I expected from him sooner. I know he gets on very well at Jerez, but it should not have taken till this round to show off what he can do on the GP24.

MM I think had enough of not finishing either the race or in the points, so I was glad he decided after the contact to just maintain distance and to finish the race. Pecco got the MM experience today, and I'm reminded of something from Formula 1 about 30 years ago. When David Coulthard won his first grands prix in the Williams-Renault at the 1995 Portuguese Grand Prix, he had Michael Schumacher behind him in the Benetton-Renault. He remarked afterwards that the pace that Schumacher was pushing him at was so great, he was certain he was going to crash rather than finish the race. Bagnaia withstood MM which not many do, but he's going to find a time and place when it doesn't happen. Marc was pushing him as hard as I've seen anyone push Pecco these last few years. I do not think though that the outcome would have been the same if both were on GP24's though.

The association with Rossi is disappointing, but speaks to his ill-advised judgment in general whether on the race track or in the every day world. Nick Harris was always prone to hyperbole which I could never figure out if it was an effort to mimic the late Murray Walker or if he actually believes what he says. Pecco like many is fast on his day, but has the advantage of being on the best motorcycle on the grid.
 
gui22a said:
To say "huge" is a lot exagerated. Specially in Jerez. The difference from both bikes are most likeley only engine wise, like peak power and delivery. But it's something limited in Jerez (as Dalligna has just said to GpOne) that is a fast flowing, twistted track.

And one can't ignore the GP23 is a ready to go bike, like I said, very well settled and set up, so normally in the first part of a season, the last year bikes always do great.
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In an era of significantly diminishing returns on a 1000cc engine, to be able to get an additional power advantage out of the Desmo is nothing short of huge. Every tenth of a second counts, and if you can get a bike to do 5 tenths or a little more better per lap time, that is an enormous advantage to have in the modern grand prix motorcycle era. Pecco finished just under 4 tenths better than Marc. Bezzecchi nor Alex Marquez could come close to maintaining the pace needed to be in striking distance for a win today. Bezzecchi was almost 4 seconds down at the end of the race. He was never a factor after MM passed him.

Again, you continue to ignore that MM is on the season opener GP23. That's over a year ago. Improvements have been made engine-wise and aerodynamics wise. Gigi knows what these motorcycles are capable of.
 
JPSLotus said:
In an era of significantly diminishing returns on a 1000cc engine, to be able to get an additional power advantage out of the Desmo is nothing short of huge. Every tenth of a second counts, and if you can get a bike to do 5 tenths or a little more better per lap time, that is an enormous advantage to have in the modern grand prix motorcycle era. Pecco finished just under 4 tenths better than Marc. Bezzecchi nor Alex Marquez could come close to maintaining the pace needed to be in striking distance for a win today. Bezzecchi was almost 4 seconds down at the end of the race. He was never a factor after MM passed him.

Again, you continue to ignore that MM is on the season opener GP23. That's over a year ago. Improvements have been made engine-wise and aerodynamics wise. Gigi knows what these motorcycles are capable of.
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Again, you are making things much simpler than they are. So you are saying that a bike won today, not a rider. You even pointed out the gap (4 tenths) as if this was solely due to the difference between the 24 and 23 bikes and was Marc on a 24 machine things would have been the opposite. Hey brother, motogp as well as motorbike racing are not that simple, "black in white". You are conveninently ignoring that motogp racing is somewhere 50/50 between the bike and the rider, ignoring that things are so high level and top notch that is hard to make assertive improvements and big gains in all areas, and what they get most of the time are marginal gains here and there to make their rider life a bit easier or more of his like. Sometimes isn't that the bike improved but it only "changed" to attend the like of a rider and therefore he can feel more confortable and can ride faster. MotoGP at this level of rules is a game of compromise. You can't improve something without sacrificing another (you see, the GP24 has chatter, an issue we haven't seen in a Ducati since a long time).

I don't know the level of understanding of you guys, and I find some things bizarre sometimes (like our other mate saying 10 mph more in the GP24 lol - and you liked), but things are not that simple. Maybe we are here thinking about how MM was handicaped by the 23 machine but if investigated deeply it could be the he was favored and Bagnaia was in disadvantage due to chatter, for example. Just saying.

I feel this forum has become a bit like a Marc place. Guys are taking for granted that MM is still a better or much better rider than Bagnaia or Martin, for example. Is that really true? I'm not that sure. Actually I don't think MM is in the level of Martin or Bagnaia anymore. That's my say. It's a top rider, but he has lacked a hair to be together with those two.
 
JPSLotus said:
I agree entirely on those 2 laps Pecco rode. Nothing but kudos to him for putting in those lap times...but they were lap times I expected from him sooner. I know he gets on very well at Jerez, but it should not have taken till this round to show off what he can do on the GP24.

MM I think had enough of not finishing either the race or in the points, so I was glad he decided after the contact to just maintain distance and to finish the race. Pecco got the MM experience today, and I'm reminded of something from Formula 1 about 30 years ago. When David Coulthard won his first grands prix in the Williams-Renault at the 1995 Portuguese Grand Prix, he had Michael Schumacher behind him in the Benetton-Renault. He remarked afterwards that the pace that Schumacher was pushing him at was so great, he was certain he was going to crash rather than finish the race. Bagnaia withstood MM which not many do, but he's going to find a time and place when it doesn't happen. Marc was pushing him as hard as I've seen anyone push Pecco these last few years. I do not think though that the outcome would have been the same if both were on GP24's though.

The association with Rossi is disappointing, but speaks to his ill-advised judgment in general whether on the race track or in the every day world. Nick Harris was always prone to hyperbole which I could never figure out if it was an effort to mimic the late Murray Walker or if he actually believes what he says. Pecco like many is fast on his day, but has the advantage of being on the best motorcycle on the grid.
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What I was about to post, except more elegantly said. Pecco does not LOVE being harried like that. To some, he fought well in the closing laps, I think, he looked a bit desperate and I don't believe he can maintain that kind of energy for an entire season.
 
gui22a said:
Again, you are making things much simpler than they are. So you are saying that a bike won today, not a rider. You even pointed out the gap (4 tenths) as if this was solely due to the difference between the 24 and 23 bikes and was Marc on a 24 machine things would have been the opposite. Hey brother, motogp as well as motorbike racing are not that simple, "black in white". You are conveninently ignoring that motogp racing is somewhere 50/50 between the bike and the rider, ignoring that things are so high level and top notch that is hard to make assertive improvements and big gains in all areas, and what they get most of the time are marginal gains here and there to make their rider life a bit easier or more of his like. Sometimes isn't that the bike improved but it only "changed" to attend the like of a rider and therefore he can feel more confortable and can ride faster. MotoGP at this level of rules is a game of compromise. You can't improve something without sacrificing another (you see, the GP24 has chatter, an issue we haven't seen in a Ducati since a long time).

I don't know the level of understanding of you guys, and I find some things bizarre sometimes (like our other mate saying 10 mph more in the GP24 lol - and you liked), but things are not that simple. Maybe we are here thinking about how MM was handicaped by the 23 machine but if investigated deeply it could be the he was favored and Bagnaia was in disadvantage due to chatter, for example. Just saying.

I feel this forum has become a bit like a Marc place. Guys are taking for granted that MM is still a better or much better rider than Bagnaia or Martin, for example. Is that really true? I'm not that sure. Actually I don't think MM is in the level of Martin or Bagnaia anymore. That's my say. It's a top rider, but he has lacked a hair to be together with those two.
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The bike/rider 50/50 ratio isn't the same anymore because of aero and ride height devices. Nothing what so ever makes me think the gp23 is better or equal to the 24. Every rider who has rode both states that. Every rider that has ridden both is riding better on the 24. You could argue Pecco is not but thats of his own doing. Martin better. Enea better. There is zero evidence that the gp23 is as good. Every rider who rode the 22 is doing worse on the 23. Its not a good bike compared to the 22 or the 24. I don't know how you could argue showing a single example otherwise. You can say it but you can't back it up. I haven't seen or heard anything about the chatter issue since the first round. However the braking issue has been the number one problem of the 23 last year and this year. Would Marc have won on the 24? probably. Would Pecco have lost on the 23? Probably. Hell if Pecco didn't bumper bike his way through I doubt he would have found a way around Marc today.

We here credit Marc on his riding because no one in the history of the sport has matched what he can do. In his down years the past 3 even, no one on that garbage pail bike has matched him. Not even close. I don't believe he has fallen from being great yet. I'll believe it when he isn't over preforming compared to every rider on equal machinery. So far that hasn't happened. I don't rate Pecco in the top 3 riders in gp. I rate him maybe 5th. He has benefitted by having the best bike on the grid. In a time where the bike means more than the rider due to, as mentioned above, aero and ride height. A bike that suits him while some of the other great riders are on .... cans.
 
dogfight said:
Thanks for remembering me. :).

Congratulation to Bagnaia once again won duel against Marquez. I am very happy.

You MM band wagon seem very fragile. I never said your Marquez is finished, I DID say that he will never win again, because it requires a bad/good days when all big competitors (Martin, Bagnaia, Vinales, Acosta) all not performing, and your Marquez already pass his peaks some years ago. One clear indicator is in the last 2 years, he could not pull out any miracle front wheel losing save. Just crash, and crash. From his point of view, he believes that big modern aero makes bike saving harder or even impossible, but in my view, his reflex has become slower than the required threshold to save the bike.

My second statement is he will have NOWHERE to go next year: Nowhere here means factory teams. You guys hit back by saying Ducati is interested in MM, KTM is interested in MM. That's true, But there is a big difference between what teams talk and waht teams do. You all know the fact that in a team they normally need number 1 rider, to focus to the championship, and to focus to the bike development. In some special cases we see team equality, but it is quite rare. Now, Duc has Bagnaia, definitely number 1 at the moment. KTM has Acosta the next super star, Vinales @Aprilia. Back to Honda? Absolutely NO. Go to Yamaha? Definitely NO, Quatararo is there, and Yamaha is ill. His choice is so limited.

Now move to Duc 23 vs 24 comparison, you MM band wagon feels/be confident that Duc 24 is much more superior to Duc 23. Any proof? Improving an all-rounds bike like the Duc 23 is very hard. The bike is so good so it dominated the fields in 2023. Engine? At the start of the season, some articles were talking about Duc 24 engine improvement. How much do you know about the power improvement and power delivery improvement? I doubt you will ever know it. Even with big engine improvement, it does not mean it is applicable at any track. This race for example, Jerez is not a stop and go track, so engine improvement is less significant here.

As you guys are confident that the Duc 24 is much superior to Duc 23, so watching MM fighting at the front makes you feel MM still so good. Sure he is still good but not enough to win races. In reality, Ducati is smarter than you! Ducati CEO Domenicali demands MM is not compared to Duc 24 riders. He is now the fastest Duc 23 rider, but there isn't any baseline to compare him with Duc 24 riders. Link: Ducati CEO demands Marc Marquez is not compared to GP24 riders

For me the Duc 24 has more potential, but it needs time to fix the new issues rising from modifications applied to the new bike. So as time goes on, Duc 24 will be superior to Duc 23. At the start of the season, it is 50/50.
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You and qui22a need to get your story straight, is the GP24 so much better than the GP23 that MM can’t ever win another race, or did Bagnaia just beat MM by superior riding on equal equipment ?.

As has been said, mostly wishful thinking in this post, and you reveal yourself rather than proving anything as per my previous post in reply to you.

MM looks to me like your boy claimed to be in 2014, happy to be competitive again. I am sure he would like another title, but unlike Rossi I strongly doubt he is going to go to his grave obsessing about a title being stolen from him, along with the Valeban such as you off track and even his acolytes in the current field it would appear. So whatever else MM his fans permanently have that as a cause of satisfaction/schadenfreude Should we wish to descend to tour level.

And once again, all of this angst is based on a fantasy/fever dream. Rossi never needed to win the 8th title to prove himself equal to or better than Agostini, everyone already knew he was better. And the ugly truth for you guys is that the basis of the obsession with the title that was stolen is that in the case of the PI 2015 race Ucchio’s race analysis is arrant nonsense, and MM was only marginally involved in Rossi not winning the 2015 title, the guy he needed to beat in the end of season races was Jorge Lorenzo as MM said, and Jorge won because he couldn’t do so, or beat Dani Pedrosa in a number of races and Iannone in one race.
 
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michaelm said:
You and qui22a need to get your story straight, is the GP24 so much better than the GP23 that MM can’t ever win another race, or did Bagnaia just beat MM by superior riding on equal equipment ?.
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Me? I never said either of that hahaha. For me, Bag beat MM on very similar conditions (for Jerez, which is not the same as "equal equipment"). Today Bag had something more than MM and I don't think it's bike related.

As for MM, I voted on him for some wins, but not to fight for the tittle, although the championship is still completely open.
 
JFM01 said:
Pedro got humbled big time in the warm-up.
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After watching his crash, I was wondering how different the outcome may have been back in the days when tire walls would have been there. He hit the air fence pretty hard. Glad he was not hurt. Nasty one.

michaelm said:
No mention post race from Nick Harris that MM was on a GP23.
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I'm sorry you had to listen to him.
 
michaelm said:
I am encouraged by this race as was MM obviously.

Credit to Bagnaia for the two fantastic laps that won him the race, but MM even elected to take second when Bagnaia would have taken them both down on this track which is close to Bagnaia’s best while being the track where MM had his career threatening injury. MM shrugged off the tyre marks on his leathers, but both he and his crew chief said the race didn’t go according to plan, partly due to Bagnaia’s dynamite first lap of course, but MM said he was stiff from the fall on Saturday and loosened up during the race. Getting away in front is probably his best chance to win as he has been trying to do, he looks to be at a disadvantage in a dogfight on a GP23.

Bagnaia is obviously fast and has now won 20 races and two titles, but one of the greatest of all time together with MM as Nick Harris called it is perhaps a little premature, particularly since Ducati were basically handed a bike advantage.

I thought I was being unfair in disliking him partly because of his Valentino Rossi association, but the post race scenes with Valentino himself on hand have assuaged any guilty feelings I might have had.
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I have been fairly neutral toward Pecco previously, hadn''t seen any overt Rossi friendship/loyalty.
I did not like seeing Rossi there celebrating at all, so that has pushed Pecco toward the negative for me.
At least as the camera showed Rossi trying to get Pecco's attention in Parc Ferme. Pecco ignored him. 🤔😆
That would have been too much. The orchestrator of the Valeban celebrating a "friend" of his beating Marc, right in Marc's face.
Still, as we know from history Marc would have gained fuel and motivation from any negative interaction with that ..... Always let his riding do the talking, not his mouth.
 
warthog1 said:
I have been fairly neutral toward Pecco previously, hadn''t seen any overt Rossi friendship/loyalty.
I did not like seeing Rossi there celebrating at all, so that has pushed Pecco toward the negative for me.
At least as the camera showed Rossi trying to get Pecco's attention in Parc Ferme. Pecco ignored him. 🤔😆
That would have been too much. The orchestrator of the Valeban celebrating a "friend" of his beating Marc, right in Marc's face.
Still, as we know from history Marc would have gained fuel and motivation from any negative interaction with that ..... Always let his riding do the talking, not his mouth.
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I did find it funny in during the podium celebrations when MM was doing his terrible dancing, Pecco seemed to be enjoying himself, laughing and joking, either at or with MM or something else going on while Bezz looked like someone just shat in his cereal. Pecco seeming to not get involved in the Rossi/MM spat clearly looks to be better for his own mental health.
 
gui22a said:
I would but not "huge", though. It's true from the GP22 to GP23 there were some important modifications regarding power delivery (again, seems Ducati has only that to change now lol) and riders who came from the 22 have struggled a bit. But the GP23 dominated last year by FAR, with 13 wins out of 20, with 4 (all four!) different riders, including Enea who won at Malaysia. So we had 4 GP22 and 4 GP23. The GP23 took 13 wins with all her 4 riders. The GP22 won 4 races with 2 riders only. So, calm down. Enea's bad season might cause some weird feeling about the GP23 but let's not forget he crashed, got hurt and stayed away from racing a lot of time. But once he returned, he got to the grips with the GP23 and did well in the last part of the season. So it's not a crap neither a bad bike. Take it easy. It's championship material. It's, actually, the current champion machine.



No rider has a "setup" for himself in a bike he never rode before. That's not a MM exclusivity. What he has and every other GP23 rider is the base very well defined and ready to go, and then they build from there. You guys keep saying this thing about updates to Gp23 but I sincerely don't remember the bike getting big updates from Qatar to Valencia. If I remeber well there was something with aero and then only eletrocnics (which does not demand hardware upgrades). I think Ducati will give that to MM for tomorrow tests.

Gigi said MM has a bike handcap, however, that is not entirely true for all tracks. Himself has said just a couple of hours ago, it's not the case at Jerez (go to GPone, it's fresh news, look for Dalligna picture and click to read).

EDITED: Guys, the GP23 has just won the 1st and 2nd championship spots. Calm down.
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You seem to be getting more and more confused and to be back tracking not very successfully. You actually liked a post which contended MM wouldn’t win another race partly because the GP24 was significantly better than the GP23.

Again, so MM had a set up advantage on a track he had never ridden before on a Ducati ?, and his bike is well honed despite being the unimproved bike that started last season at Qatar ?. And if you remember no improvements Gresini anpparently does remember and has asked for them.

Ii didn’t say MM was the only rider not to have his own set up data for this track btw, just that he didn’t didn’t on a Ducati of any vintage.. Gigi also didn’t say MM had a bike disadvantage except at tracks to be determined by you. And as has been said MM apparently used his COTA set up at Jerez anyway.

I didn’t quite grasp your edit, what exactly was your point ?.
 
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JPSLotus said:
Do you dispute Pecco nearly crashed out multiple times trying to win today's race?
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Devil's advocate says; "But he didn't." This is twice I can remember, the first one being Aragon (I think) where Marc threw everything he had at Pecco and Pecco withstood the attack and prevailed. Whether or not he's on a better bike matters little, to me anyway. Marc is Marc and Pecco wasn't backing down. There is something to be said for that.

 
Keshav said:
It'd be like Mutually Assured Destruction - where no-one waits to see who blinks first.
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Had a bit more of a think about it today and I'm not sure. Enea and Pecco had some big battles in 22 before Enea was put on the factory bike.
Pecco and MM still seem civil with each other off the bike. Dunno.
I'd love to see MM with the factory support but aint too hopeful
 
The GP24 is clearly a better bike that the 23. The 22 seems to have been more rider friendly/easier to get your head around than the 23. The 23 may have dominated the season last year but that was with Ducati's full support to sort the issues out. If the 23 riders are using the start of season 23, it sounds like that is a significant handicap.

Bezz and AM both had excellent races beating the only other competitive rider on the 24 machine. So the evidence would say that the 24 bikes advantage was probably slightly less this weekend but that doesn't mean it wasn't there at all. The beast is hardly having a great season.
 
warthog1 said:
Had a bit more of a think about it today and I'm not sure. Enea and Pecco had some big battles in 22 before Enea was put on the factory bike.
Pecco and MM still seem civil with each other off the bike. Dunno.
I'd love to see MM with the factory support but aint too hopeful
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I think Gigi wants MM on his bike. That can count for a lot. Martin throwing away a huge championship lead opens up the door for MM to get the seat IMO. Ducati also know that MM is a threat on any decent bike he gets, the proof is there. They don't know if Martin is the same threat and Ducati do look to be bending over backwards to remind everyone that MM is on a 23 bike and the 24 is significantly better.
 

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