I agree with you in this instance.
I am very happy to give full credit to Valentino for all of the 9 titles he actually won. It is the awarding to him of titles he didn't win (not by you) to which I object.
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I agree with you in this instance.
I am very happy to give full credit to Valentino for all of the 9 titles he actually won. It is the awarding to him of titles he didn't win (not by you) to which I object.
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So would I Michael, I made a tongue in cheek remark there buddy. Even so, the idea is much less outrageous than some of the selective statistics and far out claims made to try and justify some of VR's behaviour.
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He clearly said "winning record" and against Stoner, Lorenzo, and Marquez, he has a losing record. Since 2010, his record is much closer to Pedrosa than those three
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Since 2010 he broke his leg, went on a doomed mission to Ducati then on his return to Yamaha has been on par with Lorenzo in points. That's not such a bad record.
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Championships? No. Lap records? No. Wins? No. Laps leading? No.
That's why I mentioned the "selective" statistics used buddy.
Lorenzo broke his collarbone twice in one season and still beat Valentino by the way. Well actually he bent the original plate and needed a new one inserting. You knew that though didn't you but "selected" not to mention it.
I actually think the situation is complex, given there have been 4 unusually good riders around in the last decade or so at different stages of their careers. To take the emotion out of it on a bike forum, I see current tennis as somewhat similar; is Federer the greatest because he has the most titles, Nadal because he mostly beat Federer when he was fit but at a time he was significantly younger than Federer, or is Djokovic ( a year ago at least) better than both of them?
I was once considered moderate (for this Rossi hater's forum) in regard to Rossi, but the last year or or so has changed my view of him, although not about his riding, his competitiveness against current opposition at age 37 having provided further proof of his quality as a rider.
His previous manipulations were somewhat behind the scenes, and I formerly blamed the crazy element among his fans rather than him for the treatment of his competitors, including Stoner for whom it made GP bike racing so unpleasant that he decided not to continue. He is completely out in the open now, and him basically IMO managing to force Jorge out of Yamaha for the sin of winning a 3rd title for them was the last straw for me.
The interview with Uccio on the other thread was revealing, suggesting as it did that Rossi lives in a bubble informed by the likes of Uccio divorced from any wider reality. Povol has his answer now, it seems as though it was that bike racing seer Uccio who suspected skullduggery while the PI 2015 race was under way when no-one else did, including it would seem Valentino himself. If everything VR has said and done in regard to the supposed conspiracy against him was based on some fantasy concocted by Uccio, and Rossi has the influence to get the likes of Yamaha and Ezy to adopt his view, then GP bike racing definitely is a long way from Kansas. I would add that I am now convinced that Rossi genuinely believes in his conspiracy theory, so he perhaps isn't quite as malicious as I had supposed.
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I agree that Rossi genuinely believed or perceived in his own mind that something was going on at PI. When i first heard the comments my jaw dropped, it sounded very Area 51 and batshit crazy, the looks the other riders gave him did it justice.
Maybe it was a strategy that backfired?
Last year when the PI conspiracy was brought up I initially thought it was just him trying to play mind games (like he has in the past). But the fact those mind games ultimately backfired on him I would imagine they would become something he would want to forget about and leave in the past ... except he continually brings them up which is not something I would imagine he has any benefit in doing, especially if it was a failed deliberate mind game that worked against him.
Maybe he genuinely though something was up?
There was no evidence to back his claims at all especially when looking at the results of the PI race to suggest any of that crap he was saying may have some validity. Although Rossi has at more than one occasion in his career ridden in ways that i feel are dirty and many times in ways that where border-lining the rules. Given this and the fact that the guy has been around long enough and seen or participated in every dirty tactic in the book. I also figured he may have smelt or sensed something was up - takes one to know one type thing. This might explain why he still brings this up and believes it (even though there is no evidence to suggest this happened).
Maybe it was something spun by Uccio and put into his head?
Up until I read this Uccio interview a few days ago I thought that the crazy PI theory was based around one of the two points i made above. Now I'm starting to think the ideas where maybe put into his head by this 'friend'. He must obviously trust this persons opinion or he wouldn't have the guy following him around for 20 years to every race. It helps explain why he hasn't let go of the idea, if Uccio is continually bringing this up and reminding him of it, id imagine it would make him feel better by feeding him this nonsence "you only lost the championship because they cheated you" would be a hell of a lot easier pill for him to swallow than "you lost the championship because you are old, not fast enough and they are better than you".
He probably finds some comfort in believing this crap and whether Uccio made it up or is just going along with it, I'd say it probably helps him sleep better at night.
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I too thought it was a strategy, I thought he was attempting to rev Marquez up to go all out to beat Jorge at all costs. My view was VR was worried he couldn't beat JL alone, so he tried to inflame Marquez so he went out and took points from him or even accidentally took him out, thus giving VR a huge leg up title wise.
VR is a clever man and wouldn't allow Uccio's opinions and urging to drag him into such craziness if he didn't buy into it or feel there was gains to be made.
Uccio's a slimeball and a yes man, but I don't feel he wears the trousers, so to speak in their friendship.
I used to be a big VR fan, indeed I still am a big fan of his racing, but personality wise I think he's not a nice human being and he was well out of order last year. His total lack of remorse and even respect for his fellow racers is unforgivable. It's a pity Uccio's not a good honest man who'd tell his friend straight how poor his behaviour is, instead of condoning them and often fanning the flames.
Even quite smart people are not immune to believing what they are told when it is what they want to hear in my experience.
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Just look at Germany in the previous century.
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I said points, you know, the things that determine where you finish at the end of the season .
While they competed against each other
Rossi - 1'455
Stoner - 1'696
Rossi - 2'267
Lorenzo - 2'549
Rossi - 1'053
Marquez - 1'211
Rossi - 2'755
Pedrosa - 2'643
So there it is losing records going by your criteria against all riders I mentioned as great riders. Pedrosa of course losing but only by about 100 points despite missing 12 races through injury to Rossis 4.
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Not worth considering the non competitive Ducati period really, unless we come back at the end of 2018.
Why not? He made a choice, Stoner was competitive just fine on it. If we include 2008 (and arguably 2009) it's certainly no different to his Ducati years. Once again you're being selective. The point is h2h he loses against the very top riders he faced during their time in competition with the exception of Pedrosa who accumulated almost half a season more of missed races.
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You're also being selective by including those two years, I could add 2010 and missing many races that year.
No I'm not, it's head to head its the amount of Races they spent against each other. Stoner spent 4 years on a POS Ducati to Rossis 2 and still out scored him in the time they spent racing each other. Lorenzo spent a year on Michelins while Rossis was (unfairly) allowed Bridgestones, so maybe I shouldn't count 2008 either?
Stoner missed 7 races to Rossis 4 over the same time
Lorenzo missed 5 to Rossis 4 over the same time
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You mean like wins and actual titles [emoji1]
You're proving that you'll select any set of statistics that suit your agenda.
I've never said VR isn't a great racer, but I will say his dominant days were in his earlier years. Since Casey, Dani, Jorge and Marc have arrived, he's been beaten more than he's won.
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Stoner could ride the Duke and be competitive Rossi couldn't . If you only compare competitive years the picture is much different.
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