Yamaha: Why Lorenzo won't test twice for Ducati

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Otherwise Jarvis is a .... as has been said, he has basically made a decision to go with a 38 year old who last won a title in 2009 and has won 9 races in the Marquez era as against a 29 year old who has won 3 of the last 7 titles for them and 20 races in the Marquez era. Whatever decisions he has made since Sepang last year mostly don't seem to be business decisions, or not racing business decisions anyway, and for him to claim to be making "strictly business" decisions now I find rather risible.
Not to beat that same drum again, but since the issue's already up... Rossi finished ahead of Lorenzo in 2014, nearly at par in 2015 and is running 14 points ahead in 2016 with three races to go. Lorenzo on a good day is faster than Rossi on a good day, while Rossi on a bad day is faster than Lorenzo on a bad day. In pure 'racing' terms, any unbiased observer would say they're at a roughly equivalent level. Which is why Lin Jarvis offered them contracts at the same time on equal terms with equal say in bike development.

Sure Rossi is almost 38 and there's always the risk of his age finally and irrevocably cutting off his competitiveness but as of October 2016 he's fast enough to merit another two years with the team.

In Jan 2018, Yamaha can revise that assessment with regard to future seasons. Lorenzo will be back on the market. Plus they'll have other options too. Maybe Zarco will excel on the Tech3. Maybe Rins will do well and they can make a play for him. Maybe someone from the junior classes will be ready for the big league (Binder, Bastianini, Morbidelli....). Maybe, just maybe, with Rossi out of the picture... Marquez will consider proving himself on a different bike.

Point is, Lorenzo chose to leave. Perhaps he calculated that Rossi would get slower still and Marquez would continue being erratic, giving him a good shot at the title on a Ducati. It wasn't a crazy decision that he was forced into. Keep in mind, he negotiated his deal with Ducati back in March, when Lorenzo dominated practice and broke the circuit record to finish first at Qatar on the Michelins, with Dovizioso coming in second. The money probably didn't hurt either.

Anyone who thought JL was leaving other than because he finds it intolerable to work with a bunch of clowns has their answer.
Do they? Lorenzo's being given the same allowances that Yamaha is giving Bradley Smith and Pol Espargaro (who'll be a threat to Zarco & Folger next year).

In 2010, Yamaha first gave Lorenzo, who had zero world titles at the time, a well deserved equal standing with the then champion Rossi. Rossi in turn, (convinced that Lorenzo's results were inflated by Rossi's riding data & feedback), gave them a him-or-me ultimatum and was told to shove off. And when he returned, he was told in no unclear terms that Lorenzo was their #1 rider, and if he wanted parity he'd have to earn it (which to his credit...he did).

All evidence suggests that Yamaha have treated Lorenzo very professionally. That and a fast M1 is all Lorenzo would have really needed to compete for the title next year.

______________________________


No offence, but I suspect much of the angst comes from the realization that while Marquez is the odds-on favourite for the title next year, followed by Rossi and Vinales, Lorenzo's prospects are relatively bleak. He could of course surprise us, but I suspect, as many do, that the Desmosidici won't be nearly as strong next year as it has been in 2015 & 2016. And if so, that'll be a pity given how good he is and how much more competitive the sport has been with him on the M1.
 
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All evidence suggests that Yamaha have treated Lorenzo very professionally. That and a fast M1 is all Lorenzo would have really needed to compete for the title next year.

They mostly have, I agree. However, the way they pandered to Rossi post Sepang 2015 was certainly not professional.
 
Believe it or not but....

2018 VR46 MotoGP team.

Rossi will have his own team after his next 2 years at Yamaha.
 
Point is, Lorenzo chose to leave. Perhaps he calculated that Rossi would get slower still and Marquez would continue being erratic, giving him a good shot at the title on a Ducati. It wasn't a crazy decision that he was forced into. Keep in mind, he negotiated his deal with Ducati back in March, when Lorenzo dominated practice and broke the circuit record to finish first at Qatar on the Michelins, with Dovizioso coming in second. The money probably didn't hurt either.

You need to start paying attention. Who put the wall up and made the work place difficult? Who left when yamaha grew one ball & some pubic hair and choose the younger rider? Who ran to uncle carmelo when they were unable to ride the Ducati? Who asked uncle carmelo to shave yamaha pubic hair & castrate their one ball so he can have a ride? Who made damm sure that once they return back to a bald & balls less yamaha, they sank their venom in as deep as possible to secure #1 position? Did yamaha held a celebration event for their would champion last year???

Damm right he chose to leave......... Who wouldn't after so much ....????
 
And that unfortunate manufacture will be???

Yamaha of course.

VR is going to remain a cash cow to Yamaha till he is dead.

A quasi-Satellite entry being VR's team is going to get full works status. I suspect that this may be what both parties will move towards after the 2 year contract is up. He says he wants to try his hand as a rider/owner and Yamaha will gladly provide the hardware and support staff to this "satellite entry". It will suck for Poncharval since he's going to have to take this straight up and he'll have zero recourse. Tech 3 will get demoted. Maybe VR can go dig up the Asturo Nazzarro sponsorship for his satellite team as a tongue-in-cheek dig at both HRC and the fans who remember what that Honda team was years ago.

In fact, I would be shocked if this doesn't all happen. Dorna and Yamaha both have tremendous incentive to keep VR on the grid somehow even if it's not on the works M1. Throw a different livery on and keep overnighting parts from Japan, and everything will be good. Makes plenty of financial sense.
 
Damm right he chose to leave......... Who wouldn't after so much ....????
After 'so much ....' including the wall and whatnot, it was Rossi not Lorenzo who was shown the door by Yamaha. And he was taken back as the #2 rider with a paycut, which with the advantage of hindsight has proven itself a good decision.

At a later stage he got parity with Lorenzo, not the #1 status, and only because his results justified it. The party was cancelled by (the Spanish) Movistar. And it was just a party.
 
They mostly have, I agree. However, the way they pandered to Rossi post Sepang 2015 was certainly not professional.
Debatable. If hypothetically, it had been Lorenzo and not Rossi involved, would Yamaha have backed him? I think they would and would do so for any Yamaha rider.

In any event, that's in the past. We're 10 months into a new season and they still seem to have perfectly professional relationship with Lorenzo, and again I don't think they'd have minded another two years with Lorenzo at all.
 
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Believe it or not but....

2018 VR46 MotoGP team.

Rossi will have his own team after his next 2 years at Yamaha.
Worked for Lucio Cecchinello. Team LCR's doing pretty well at the moment.

Doesn't necessarily mean a demotion for Tech3. Honda Gresini, for example, managed to co-exist with the LCR squad. In fact, IIRC in 2011 there were four factory Hondas on the track in addition to two satellites.
 
Worked for Lucio Cecchinello. Team LCR's doing pretty well at the moment.

Doesn't necessarily mean a demotion for Tech3. Honda Gresini, for example, managed to co-exist with the LCR squad. In fact, IIRC in 2011 there were four factory Hondas on the track in addition to two satellites.

Come on now.

A VR46 squad is always going to get top billing over Tech 3.

Gresini and LCR co-existing isn't applicable since we're talking a team owned/run by Valentino Rossi which is a far different scenario altogether.

Shades of Nastro Azzurro all over again.
 
Come on now.

A VR46 squad is always going to get top billing over Tech 3.
Oh I have no doubt that'll be the case. Point is, Tech 3 will still carry on as it has, just like the Marc VDS team does even though the LCR is the one with factory support.
 
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Not to beat that same drum again, but since the issue's already up... Rossi finished ahead of Lorenzo in 2014, nearly at par in 2015 and is running 14 points ahead in 2016 with three races to go. Lorenzo on a good day is faster than Rossi on a good day, while Rossi on a bad day is faster than Lorenzo on a bad day. In pure 'racing' terms, any unbiased observer would say they're at a roughly equivalent level. Which is why Lin Jarvis offered them contracts at the same time on equal terms with equal say in bike development.

Sure Rossi is almost 38 and there's always the risk of his age finally and irrevocably cutting off his competitiveness but as of October 2016 he's fast enough to merit another two years with the team.

In Jan 2018, Yamaha can revise that assessment with regard to future seasons. Lorenzo will be back on the market. Plus they'll have other options too. Maybe Zarco will excel on the Tech3. Maybe Rins will do well and they can make a play for him. Maybe someone from the junior classes will be ready for the big league (Binder, Bastianini, Morbidelli....). Maybe, just maybe, with Rossi out of the picture... Marquez will consider proving himself on a different bike.

Point is, Lorenzo chose to leave. Perhaps he calculated that Rossi would get slower still and Marquez would continue being erratic, giving him a good shot at the title on a Ducati. It wasn't a crazy decision that he was forced into. Keep in mind, he negotiated his deal with Ducati back in March, when Lorenzo dominated practice and broke the circuit record to finish first at Qatar on the Michelins, with Dovizioso coming in second. The money probably didn't hurt either.


Do they? Lorenzo's being given the same allowances that Yamaha is giving Bradley Smith and Pol Espargaro (who'll be a threat to Zarco & Folger next year).

In 2010, Yamaha first gave Lorenzo, who had zero world titles at the time, a well deserved equal standing with the then champion Rossi. Rossi in turn, (convinced that Lorenzo's results were inflated by Rossi's riding data & feedback), gave them a him-or-me ultimatum and was told to shove off. And when he returned, he was told in no unclear terms that Lorenzo was their #1 rider, and if he wanted parity he'd have to earn it (which to his credit...he did).

All evidence suggests that Yamaha have treated Lorenzo very professionally. That and a fast M1 is all Lorenzo would have really needed to compete for the title next year.

______________________________


No offence, but I suspect much of the angst comes from the realization that while Marquez is the odds-on favourite for the title next year, followed by Rossi and Vinales, Lorenzo's prospects are relatively bleak. He could of course surprise us, but I suspect, as many do, that the Desmosidici won't be nearly as strong next year as it has been in 2015 & 2016. And if so, that'll be a pity given how good he is and how much more competitive the sport has been with him on the M1.
Last year was an aberration, not for Rossi, but for MM. He is simply not going to throw his bike down the road 6 times in a season again, or (presumably) have Rossi torpedo him out of a 7th race.

MotoGP is about winning for the likes of Yamaha (and Rossi and Lorenzo for that matter), not finishing 2nd or 3rd. MM may well be unbeatable for the next several titles by anyone, but the one guy who can actually challenge him for intrinsic pace on suitable tyres is Jorge Lorenzo, not Valentino Rossi, as the 20 race wins demonstrate, which include significant periods without a suitable tyre.

As I have been saying, Yamaha's best strategy against MM would have been imo to back JL totally and push hard for Michelin to provide a suitable tyre. Regardless of conspiracies, it is a matter of reality that conditions and tyres which suit VR also suit MM, and that MM has a similar talent level but is 15 years younger.

Of course I realise, and have actually said, that Jorge has little or no chance on a Ducati. That is the whole point about the matter, do you really think Jorge doesn't realise the same thing? This is exactly why Yamaha seemed to be operating under the assumption he would stay regardless of how they treated him, and why I and others are contending he must have found his recent situation at Yamaha quite intolerable to have considered going to Ducati to be preferable.
 
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What Marquez does or what tyres Michelin deliver is not really in Yamaha's control.

They can only give the championship their best shot, and I don't think a team like Yamaha would be willing to simply write it off and instead play for race victories/podiums because Marquez might be 'unbeatable'. Racing is after all an unpredictable sport.

I think they were already giving Lorenzo the best possible bike (in general, the M1 isn't a very a temperamental machine) and plenty of support to set it up. He'd have had the same consideration had he stayed on.

Of course I realise, and have actually said, that Jorge has little or no chance on a Ducati. That is the whole point about the matter, do you really think Jorge doesn't realise the same thing? This is exactly why Yamaha seemed to be operating under the assumption he would stay regardless of how they treated him, and why I and others are contending he must have found his recent situation at Yamaha quite intolerable to have considered going to Ducati to be preferable.
I think the denunciation of Yamaha in recent days has gotten a lot stronger than it was back when Lorenzo actually signed up with Ducati in March-April.

Nobody then was saying that he had little or no chance on the Desmosidici. Of course back then Lorenzo was in-form and strong on the Michelins. Meanwhile Honda were struggling with the spec electronics, Marquez was less than steady, Rossi consistent but ageing, while Ducati looked stronger than ever with wings that were going stay on.

If Lorenzo had to do it over again, I think he'd stay at Yamaha or if he were determined to get a #1 slot... move to Suzuki. But then hindsight as they say, is 20-20.
 
I think we base too much around past Ducati mistakes, and Rossi's poor showing there. The team has changed, the bike has changed, and Lorenzo is a couple of laps ahead of the current riders there. Vinales may end up with the better bike, but Lorenzo has 41 dang wins against Marquez, Rossi, Pedrosa and everyone else. Vinales has one, at a very transitional and precarious time. Until proven differently, Jorge is the superior rider and will do as well or better than Maverick next year.
 
Believe it or not but....

2018 VR46 MotoGP team.

Rossi will have his own team after his next 2 years at Yamaha.


I have said for a while that he will have a factory Yamaha team at the time of his choosing
 
What Marquez does or what tyres Michelin deliver is not really in Yamaha's control.

They can only give the championship their best shot, and I don't think a team like Yamaha would be willing to simply write it off and instead play for race victories/podiums because Marquez might be 'unbeatable'. Racing is after all an unpredictable sport.

I think they were already giving Lorenzo the best possible bike (in general, the M1 isn't a very a temperamental machine) and plenty of support to set it up. He'd have had the same consideration had he stayed on.


I think the denunciation of Yamaha in recent days has gotten a lot stronger than it was back when Lorenzo actually signed up with Ducati in March-April.

Nobody then was saying that he had little or no chance on the Desmosidici. Of course back then Lorenzo was in-form and strong on the Michelins. Meanwhile Honda were struggling with the spec electronics, Marquez was less than steady, Rossi consistent but ageing, while Ducati looked stronger than ever with wings that were going stay on.

If Lorenzo had to do it over again, I think he'd stay at Yamaha or if he were determined to get a #1 slot... move to Suzuki. But then hindsight as they say, is 20-20.
For the exact reasons you give for the testing restriction on Jorge, Yamaha aren't going to push for a Jorge suitable tyre that will help him at Ducati next year, so who else is going to do so? Ducati can't do it this year, and have hadn't much luck with securing tyres which suit them in general.

I am not alleging conspiracy in this discussion or arguing for MM and Rossi not to have tyres which suit them, but just pointing to Jorge being fairly untouchable when he had the high edge Bridgestone tyres which allowed him to do his "butterhammer" thing, and also early season this year on the Michelins which suited him before problems for others provoked changes.

We both know the second part of your post is nonsense/sophistry, there has never been a time since 2007 when anyone would choose Ducati over Yamaha on bike quality grounds, and those who would have done so in 2007 were very likely wrong and the guy who made the same choice in 2010 believing the bikes were close and his talent would allow him to prosper was very definitely proven wrong.
 
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For the exact reasons you give for the testing restriction on Jorge, Yamaha aren't going to push for a Jorge suitable tyre that will help him at Ducati next year, so who else is going to do so? Ducati can't do it this year, and have hadn't much luck with securing tyres which suit them in general.

I am not alleging conspiracy in this discussion or arguing for MM and Rossi not to have tyres which suit them, but just pointing to Jorge being fairly untouchable when he had the high edge Bridgestone tyres which allowed him to do his "butterhammer" thing, and also early season this year on the Michelins which suited him before problems for others provoked changes.
All of which ignores the basic fact that Yamaha doesn't direct Michelin's tire development. Many would argue that Honda has greater influence over Dorna (and thus Michelin) thus swings matters Marquez's way.

Personally, I think Dorna will prefer to the tyre as unpredictable as possible while minimizing crashes. Good for the show, good for the bottom-line. Unless Marquez proves to be too adaptable in which case, they may switch strategies. Anything that'll make the event more competitive and increase the numbers of battles taking place.

We both know the second part of your post is nonsense/sophistry, there has never been a time since 2007 when anyone would choose Ducati over Yamaha on bike quality grounds, and those who would have done so in 2007 were very likely wrong and the guy who made the same choice in 2010 believing the bikes were close and his talent would allow him to prosper was very definitely proven wrong.
Sophistry/nonsense maybe. It is also NOT what my post said. Nowhere did I argue that the Ducati was a better bike than the Yamaha.

But that also doesn't mean all the Ducatis can be lumped in together. The GP7 was a very different machine from the GP11 which in turn was very different from the GP15.

A different cost-benefit analysis applies to each. So where Lorenzo might have been willing to give a GP15-type machine a shot, he'd never make the same jump if a GP11-type machine awaited him instead.

Point being, his prospects for the next two years have definitely taken a downturn over the course of this season i.e. after his Ducati deal was sewed up. And in retrospect, the still-improving Suzuki might have been better suited for him.

Ironically, his loss... is Iannone's gain.
 
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All of which ignores the basic fact that Yamaha doesn't direct Michelin's tire development. Many would argue that Honda has greater influence over Dorna (and thus Michelin) thus swings matters Marquez's way.

Personally


Sophistry/nonsense maybe. It is also NOT what my post said. Nowhere did I argue that the Ducati was a better bike than the Yamaha.

But that also doesn't mean all the Ducatis can be lumped in together. The GP7 was a very different machine from the GP11 which in turn was very different from the GP15.

A different cost-benefit analysis applies to each. So where Lorenzo might have been willing to give a GP15-type machine a shot, he'd never make the same jump if a GP11-type machine awaited instead.

Point being, his prospects for the next two years have definitely taken a downturn over the course of this season i.e. after his Ducati deal was sewed up. And in retrospect, the still-improving Suzuki might have been better suited for him.

Ironically, his loss... is Iannone's gain.

Michelins testing pre season was done one an m1 with Edwards riding. I certainly say they at the very least had a small hand in development.

It's hindsight to say he never would've jumped on the GP11, Stoner took the GP10 to 3 wins towards the end of the season and according to everyone else he was Ducatis problem. So he likely may have made the jump like Rossi did. You're right though they're not the same machine, the GP10/11 was a proven race winner, while the version Lorenzo is jumping on can only win when there's a heap of straights on the track.
 
Michelins testing pre season was done one an m1 with Edwards riding. I certainly say they at the very least had a small hand in development.
Well... small enough for Honda not to throw a fit.

It's hindsight to say he never would've jumped on the GP11, Stoner took the GP10 to 3 wins towards the end of the season and according to everyone else he was Ducatis problem. So he likely may have made the jump like Rossi did. You're right though they're not the same machine, the GP10/11 was a proven race winner, while the version Lorenzo is jumping on can only win when there's a heap of straights on the track.
That's what I mean. He'd never deliberately make that decision i.e. knowing all facts.

The GP15 IMO wasn't a bad bike. Iannone on it, managed to finished 12 races in the top six, another 6th, 7th & 8th (other three ending in crashes). Dovizioso took three straight 2nd placed on it before his championship bid spiraled. He went into the sixth race at Mugello just 4 pts behind Lorenzo.

Next year however, the wings come off (which wasn't known at the beginning of the season). Given how much the bike depends on acceleration and the absence of custom electronics (influencing wheelies), its likely to be a much tougher season for Ducati.
 
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