Yamaha: Why Lorenzo won't test twice for Ducati

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frizzle said:
If Vinales & Iannone got the same deal then fine I respect that. But they will be allowed to ride in all the winter tests because their team is being respectful & not being dicks. Vinales & Iannone will have racked up a shitload more laps on their new bikes compared to Lorenzo. How is that fair to all?
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You're comparing different contracts, different teams (with different sponsors), different manufacturers, and then asking "how is that fair?".

Yamaha is honoring their contract with Lorenzo and paying him through Dec 31st. They're being very fair.
 
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frizzle said:
If Vinales & Iannone got the same deal then fine I respect that. But they will be allowed to ride in all the winter tests because their team is being respectful & not being dicks. Vinales & Iannone will have racked up a shitload more laps on their new bikes compared to Lorenzo. How is that fair to all?
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Exactly. Jarvis is spinning .... on the contracts like he's been spinning .... since Sepang. What do they want to keep JLo hanging around for? He wont be allowed to test the new Yamaha, Vinales will be on it anyway.

They wont be using Lorenzo for any future advertising or photo ops or press, they have Rossi for that anyway.

There is absolutely no reason for this other than someone's ego.

Lin Jarvis is a ..... Under his "leadership" he decided lets punish Lorenzo for the thumbs down at Sepang, respect Rossi? Punish Lorenzo again for stealing Rossi title, no party. Cant upset Rossi. Make it obvious he isn't no 1 in the team at contract renewal time despite being w/c and maybe he ought to leave, because Rossi hates him, then when he leaves decree thou shalt honour thy contract even though we absolutely no use for you?
 
birdman said:
Exactly. Jarvis is spinning .... on the contracts like he's been spinning .... since Sepang. What do they want to keep JLo hanging around for? He wont be allowed to test the new Yamaha, Vinales will be on it anyway.
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He is getting paid a .... load of money! Why should Yamaha pay him to go test for Ducati?

Lorenzo should've attempted to negotiate with Yamaha to buy himself out of his contract early, but nobody should expect their current employer to pay them to work with one of their rivals to beat them next year.

I do agree with asking why Yamaha would want to keep JLo hanging around for! They should've terminated that little .... after he cruised around at the back of the grid at Assen! It's a race, not a parade lap for the fans!
 
moto vudu said:
You're comparing different contracts, different teams (with different sponsors), different manufacturers, and then asking "how is that fair?".

Yamaha is honoring their contract with Lorenzo and paying him through Dec 31st. They're being very fair.
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It's called good will. He has won them a lot of races & delivered championships to them. Yamaha will gladly put Vinales on their bike to test every session, yet Lorenzo will be denied to do the same.
Every single riders contract expires December 31st. There is no excuse for Yamaha, so why are you trying to manufacture one for them?

Regardless of sponsors, contracts, etc. They could easily waive any of that & let him test. Just like Ducati are doing with Iannone & Suzuki are doing with Vinales. If you can't see why that isn't fair, then I'm not sure why we are bothering to discuss it.
 
frizzle said:
It's called good will. He has won them a lot of races & delivered championships to them. Yamaha will gladly put Vinales on their bike to test every session, yet Lorenzo will be denied to do the same.
Every single riders contract expires December 31st. There is no excuse for Yamaha, so why are you trying to manufacture one for them?

Regardless of sponsors, contracts, etc. They could easily waive any of that & let him test. Just like Ducati are doing with Iannone & Suzuki are doing with Vinales. If you can't see why that isn't fair, then I'm not sure why we are bothering to discuss it.
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If Lorenzo wants charity, he should look into riding for the Salvation Army.

How do you know what's in every rider's contract?
 
moto vudu said:
He is getting paid a .... load of money! Why should Yamaha pay him to go test for Ducati?

Lorenzo should've attempted to negotiate with Yamaha to buy himself out of his contract early, but nobody should expect their current employer to pay them to work with one of their rivals to beat them next year.

I do agree with asking why Yamaha would want to keep JLo hanging around for! They should've terminated that little .... after he cruised around at the back of the grid at Assen! It's a race, not a parade lap for the fans!
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That's it, the money. I believe his current contract with Yamaha is higher than Rossi. Out of spite then, since they only get Vinales on a much lower contract they don't see it as equal value.

Yet Rossi was getting paid a .... load of money when Yamaha released him to test for Ducati.

Maybe Ducati should have attempted to negotiate with Rossi to buy him out of his contract early and get Stoner back, since their bike went from podium one second to cruising around at the back of the grid 80 seconds later.
 
frizzle said:
It's called good will. He has won them a lot of races & delivered championships to them. Yamaha will gladly put Vinales on their bike to test every session, yet Lorenzo will be denied to do the same.
Every single riders contract expires December 31st. There is no excuse for Yamaha, so why are you trying to manufacture one for them?

Regardless of sponsors, contracts, etc. They could easily waive any of that & let him test. Just like Ducati are doing with Iannone & Suzuki are doing with Vinales. If you can't see why that isn't fair, then I'm not sure why we are bothering to discuss it.
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So it is only "Rossi-hating" which is nefarious and irrational? Or is it kosher to "hate" riders as long as they have less than 6 world titles? Your "hatred" for Lorenzo has been obvious all along.
 
frizzle said:
If Vinales & Iannone got the same deal then fine I respect that. But they will be allowed to ride in all the winter tests because their team is being respectful & not being dicks. Vinales & Iannone will have racked up a shitload more laps on their new bikes compared to Lorenzo. How is that fair to all?
Click to expand...

Its not fair??? Neither is a black fella's bum.

Like Lin Jarvis said, they are a business and first and foremost have to put their sponsors and shareholders interests first.

You have obviously never worked for a really big company before. Yamaha are being contractually astute and still allowing him the test at Valencia which they are not in any way obligated to do. Whether this is less than or more than the "industry norm" really means .... all.

If everyone else was blindly walking off a bridge does that mean you have to aswell?

The other riders you mentioned are not multiple time world championship winners in the premier class. The multiple world championship riders get paid the big bucks, and these are the things that go with the territory ... its a complete package, you don't get to pick and choose.
 
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frizzle said:
It's called good will. He has won them a lot of races & delivered championships to them. Yamaha will gladly put Vinales on their bike to test every session, yet Lorenzo will be denied to do the same.
Every single riders contract expires December 31st. There is no excuse for Yamaha, so why are you trying to manufacture one for them?
.
Click to expand...

Lorenzo could still test by choosing to ignore his contract. He'd be in breach of his contract to Yamaha, and probably a few sponsors....but if he feels he needs more time on the Ducati then he should go ahead and do it. Worse case JLo gets sued, and he pays the penalty awarded in the settlement with Yamaha...
JLo may be afraid that if does do that then he would never be welcome back at Yamaha...and that what he really wants more than extra time on the Duc....
 
AJV80 said:
Its not fair??? Neither is a black fella's bum.

Like Lin Jarvis said, they are a business and first and foremost have to put their sponsors and shareholders interests first.

You have obviously never worked for a really big company before. Yamaha are being contractually astute and still allowing him the test at Valencia which they are not in any way obligated to do. Whether this is less than or more than the "industry norm" really means .... all.

If everyone else was blindly walking off a bridge does that mean you have to aswell?

The other riders you mentioned are not multiple time world championship winners in the premier class. The multiple world championship riders get paid the big bucks, and these are the things that go with the territory ... its a complete package, you don't get to pick and choose.
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Mostly agree with your posts, and don't feel this is any big deal, as I think I said earlier if Jorge really felt it necessary to get out of his contract earlier he or Ducati could make a financial settlement to do so, and his Ducati contract apparently involves him being paid what is colloquially known as a shitload of money.

The valid reason for doing this would be Yamaha being worried about what he might do on the Ducati, rather heartening for me as a Jorge fan.

Otherwise Jarvis is a .... as has been said, he has basically made a decision to go with a 38 year old who last won a title in 2009 and has won 9 races in the Marquez era as against a 29 year old who has won 3 of the last 7 titles for them and 20 races in the Marquez era. Whatever decisions he has made since Sepang last year mostly don't seem to be business decisions, or not racing business decisions anyway, and for him to claim to be making "strictly business" decisions now I find rather risible. Anyone who thought JL was leaving other than because he finds it intolerable to work with a bunch of clowns has their answer.
 
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michaelm said:
So it is only "Rossi-hating" which is nefarious and irrational? Or is it kosher to "hate" riders as long as they have less than 6 world titles? Your "hatred" for Lorenzo has been obvious all along.
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Probably shouldn't use my post to quote when saying that Mick. ;)
 
michaelm said:
Mostly agree with your posts, and don't feel this is any big deal, as I think I said earlier if Jorge really felt it necessary to get out of his contract earlier he or Ducati could make a financial settlement to do so, and his Ducati contract apparently involved him being paid what is colloquially known as a shitload of money.

The valid reason for doing this would be them being worried about what he might do on the Ducati, rather heartening for me as a Jorge fan.

Otherwise Jarvis is a .... as has been said, he has basically made a decision to go with a 38 year old who last won a title in 2009 and has won 9 races in the Marquez era as against a 29 year old who has won 4pf the last 7 titles for them and 20 races in the Marquez era. Whatever decisions he has made since Sepang last year mostly don't seem to be business decisions, or not racing business decisions anyway, and if anyone who thought JL was leaving other than because he finds it intolerable to work with a bunch of clowns has their answer.
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Hey Mich, no big deal at all mate. Healthy discussion is just that. Plus I've had a few beers, bourbons and a Jagiermiester with Redbull. :p

I know where you and even Fizzle are coming from. Ive worked for BHP for 4 odd years and know what really big companies can be like (heartless and cold). Almost all of their decisions are based on corporate priorities and financial returns. Many of the decisions they make don't sit well morally or ethically with me but I have had to be the messenger of these decisions and its never a comfortable position to be in especially when it is effecting peoples livelihoods. Many of the descisions don't even fit in with their own company corporate charter values that they tend to ram down your throat at every given opportunity.

Lin Jarvis was very influential with the decision made no doubt, but he is also the messenger who tends to be the one everyone points the fingers at and blames. The decision is also made by many other people above him in and who only consider protecting their investment important and don't really care to much about whats fair, just and deserved. Its also Lin's career and he has to show that he is capable of making and delivering the tough decisions for the good of the business, whether he agrees with them or not but personally I tend to think he doesn't want Lorenzo to test (given the choice) and favours Rossi.

Yamaha as a financial enterprise obviously don't want Lorenzo to test for Ducati at all and the decision is a fine balance of 'them protecting their corporate image along with the bad press it will bring/giving their opposition and advantage that will cost them ultimatley in results next year'.

Lorenzo is a remarkable rider, he has put everything on the line for Yamaha (riding with a broken collarbone). He no doubt has earned and deserves a dispensation to test for his future team (in my opinion and probably many others). Personally I was never a huge fan of the guy myself, until I saw him ride with a broken collar bone. I remember watching him in the pits after that round and the hairs on my neck standing up on end, I literally wanted to hug the bloke .. what an absolute champ! Proper hard .....

Yamaha is a corporation, big corporations like them always only look at the bottom line. Being the nice good guys who let Lorenzo test for Ducati and then having him beat them next year wont make the board look good. Whether the testing made any difference at all or not wont even come into it. Lin Jarvis will be thought of as weak for not being able to make the tough call.

Yamaha simply have more to lose than to gain from letting Lorenzo do any additional testing for Ducati. The fact that they are letting him test in Valencia indicates that they are very conscious of the bad press this hard line decision of theirs will attract and also the level of bad PR they are happy to wear.
 
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AJV80 said:
Hey Mich, no big deal at all mate. Healthy discussion is just that. Plus I've had a few beers, bourbons and a Jagiermiester with Redbull. :p

I know where you and even Fizzle are coming from. Ive worked for BHP for 4 odd years and know what really big companies can be like (heartless and cold). Almost all of their decisions are based on corporate priorities and financial returns. Many of the decisions they make don't sit well morally or ethically with me but I have had to be the messenger of these decisions and its never a comfortable position to be in especially when it is effecting peoples livelihoods. Many of the descisions don't even fit in with their own company corporate charter values that they tend to ram down your throat at every given opportunity.

Lin Jarvis was very influential with the decision made no doubt, but he is also the messenger who tends to be the one everyone points the fingers at and blames. The decision is also made by many other people above him in and who only consider protecting their investment important and don't really care to much about whats fair, just and deserved. Its also Lin's career and he has to show that he is capable of making and delivering the tough decisions for the good of the business, whether he agrees with them or not but personally I tend to think he doesn't want Lorenzo to test (given the choice) and favours Rossi.

Yamaha as a financial enterprise obviously don't want Lorenzo to test for Ducati at all and the decision is a fine balance of 'them protecting their corporate image along with the bad press it will bring/giving their opposition and advantage that will cost them ultimatley in results next year'.

Lorenzo is a remarkable rider, he has put everything on the line for Yamaha (riding with a broken collarbone). He no doubt has earned and deserves a dispensation to test for his future team (in my opinion and probably many others). Personally I was never a huge fan of the guy myself, until I saw him ride with a broken collar bone. I remember watching him in the pits after that round and the hairs on my neck standing up on end, I literally wanted to hug the bloke .. what an absolute champ! Proper hard .....

Yamaha is a corporation, big corporations like them always only look at the bottom line. Being the nice good guys who let Lorenzo test for Ducati and then having him beat them next year wont make the board look good. Whether the testing made any difference at all or not wont even come into it. Lin Jarvis will be thought of as weak for not being able to make the tough call.

Yamaha simply have more to lose than to gain from letting Lorenzo do any additional testing for Ducati. The fact that they are letting him test in Valencia indicates that they are very conscious of the bad press this hard line decision of theirs will attract and also the level of bad PR they are happy to wear.
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As I said, I am heartened if they are worried about Ducati getting an advantage by letting Jorge test early for them, yet let Rossi do so in 2010. Perhaps they were Casey Stoner fans all along, and realised the bike and not him was the problem back then, which Valentino failed to do.
 
michaelm said:
As I said, I am heartened if they are worried about Ducati getting an advantage by letting Jorge test early for them, yet let Rossi do so in 2010. Perhaps they were Casey Stoner fans all along, and realised the bike and not him was the problem back then, which Valentino failed to do.
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They weren't concerned then Mike, because they had Lorenzo on the Yamaha to repel any threat Rossi might pose on the Ducati. The fact they're showing such concern now shows they're not 100% confident that Rossi and Vinales will be able to beat Lorenzo on the Ducati.
It's going to be an exciting season next year, I think Vinales will do ok on the Yamaha but I'd be surprised if he challenges the top guys seriously in his first year. I'd like to see Lorenzo go well on the Ducati too but I think his first season will again be a learning year on a new bike. It would however be great if he can challenge at the top so that we've got Ducati back as title contenders, likewise with Suzuki. Aprilia and KTM will be interesting additions to the grid too, but I can't see them being title contenders yet.
If HRC fix the Honda though, Marquez could dominate next year which is a very likely scenario. To be honest the only thing I can see stopping this is tyre and weather variables.
 
yamfan said:
They weren't concerned then Mike, because they had Lorenzo on the Yamaha to repel any threat Rossi might pose on the Ducati. The fact they're showing such concern now shows they're not 100% confident that Rossi and Vinales will be able to beat Lorenzo on the Ducati.
It's going to be an exciting season next year, I think Vinales will do ok on the Yamaha but I'd be surprised if he challenges the top guys seriously in his first year. I'd like to see Lorenzo go well on the Ducati too but I think his first season will again be a learning year on a new bike. It would however be great if he can challenge at the top so that we've got Ducati back as title contenders, likewise with Suzuki. Aprilia and KTM will be interesting additions to the grid too, but I can't see them being title contenders yet.
If HRC fix the Honda though, Marquez could dominate next year which is a very likely scenario. To be honest the only thing I can see stopping this is tyre and weather variables.
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I think you are correct to be honest.

I don't think it was ever the plan for JL to actually leave, they assumed he would put up with whatever treatment he was given to remain at Yamaha.

Kudos to Jorge. Tough little ....... as he has demonstrated on numerous occasions, including last week-end.

To be fair, I think Yamaha did make a major decision to back Jorge over Valentino in the first place in 2010, and he pissed them off by dallying with other teams subsequently prior to VR's return.
 
yamfan said:
They weren't concerned then Mike, because they had Lorenzo on the Yamaha to repel any threat Rossi might pose on the Ducati. The fact they're showing such concern now shows they're not 100% confident that Rossi and Vinales will be able to beat Lorenzo on the Ducati.
It's going to be an exciting season next year, I think Vinales will do ok on the Yamaha but I'd be surprised if he challenges the top guys seriously in his first year. I'd like to see Lorenzo go well on the Ducati too but I think his first season will again be a learning year on a new bike. It would however be great if he can challenge at the top so that we've got Ducati back as title contenders, likewise with Suzuki. Aprilia and KTM will be interesting additions to the grid too, but I can't see them being title contenders yet.
If HRC fix the Honda though, Marquez could dominate next year which is a very likely scenario. To be honest the only thing I can see stopping this is tyre and weather variables.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately for KTM they could come up with the best bike on the grid and would probably still not podium with the 2 riders they have.
 
michaelm said:
I think you are correct to be honest.

I don't think it was ever the plan for JL to actually leave, they assumed he would put up with whatever treatment he was given to remain at Yamaha.

Kudos to Jorge. Tough little ....... as he has demonstrated on numerous occasions, including last week-end.

To be fair, I think Yamaha did make a major decision to back Jorge over Valentino in the first place in 2010, and he pissed them off by dallying with other teams subsequently prior to VR's return.
Click to expand...

It's really got me that Yamaha didn't go about signing Lorenzo first, he had options and could've ended up anywhere. Rossi doesn't, he isn't going to HRC or Ducati and I doubt he wants to ride a Suzuki so it's either retire which he doesn't want to do or take what Yamaha give him when they give it to him.
 
p4p1 said:
It's really got me that Yamaha didn't go about signing Lorenzo first, he had options and could've ended up anywhere. Rossi doesn't, he isn't going to HRC or Ducati and I doubt he wants to ride a Suzuki so it's either retire which he doesn't want to do or take what Yamaha give him when they give it to him.
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I doubt HRC was an option for Jorge.

I think Yamaha were hedging their bets, but thought Jorge would have to stay and that they could always switch to him being the absolute priority if things went badly for VR for whatever reason. Again to be fair I don't think they gave Jorge lesser equipment at any stage in 2015.

Now imo they crippled their own title bid this year, and won't have currently top echelon riders for the next 2 years. They have made a substantial bet on VR being a successful team manager if that is the plan, given that his current junior class team doesn't appear particularly well managed, with reputed fistfights between riders and team management in that team.
 
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frizzle said:
If Vinales & Iannone got the same deal then fine I respect that. But they will be allowed to ride in all the winter tests because their team is being respectful & not being dicks. Vinales & Iannone will have racked up a shitload more laps on their new bikes compared to Lorenzo. How is that fair to all?
Click to expand...

Each rider is allowed 5 private tests.
Vinales and iannone will use one of their private tests before the new year and the remaining 4 after Jan 1.
Lorenzo will have to do his 5 starting Jan 1.

Vinales and iannone will not get more or less tests than Lorenzo.
 

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