Yamaha: Why Lorenzo won't test twice for Ducati

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All of which ignores the basic fact that Yamaha doesn't direct Michelin's tire development. Many would argue that Honda has greater influence over Dorna (and thus Michelin) thus swings matters Marquez's way.

Personally


Sophistry/nonsense maybe. It is also NOT what my post said. Nowhere did I argue that the Ducati was a better bike than the Yamaha.

But that also doesn't mean all the Ducatis can be lumped in together. The GP7 was a very different machine from the GP11 which in turn was very different from the GP15.

A different cost-benefit analysis applies to each. So where Lorenzo might have been willing to give a GP15-type machine a shot, he'd never make the same jump if a GP11-type machine awaited instead.

Point being, his prospects for the next two years have definitely taken a downturn over the course of this season i.e. after his Ducati deal was sewed up. And in retrospect, the still-improving Suzuki might have been better suited for him.

Ironically, his loss... is Iannone's gain.
I think Suzuki may well have been better for him in terms of being competitive but that is where money very likely did come into it.

Your narrative also ignores direct quotes from Jorge after winning his 3rd title to the effect he was proud to be in the company of other triple title winners for Yamaha in KRSR, Lawson and Rainey, and that he wished to retire as a Yamaha icon like them. It is disingenuous to pretend that it his attitude to Yamaha rather than Yamaha's attitude to hiim which has prompted him to leave, or that Yamaha have not been influenced by their view or preference as to which rider will be iconic for them in retirement.

As far as tyres, Jorge and presumably Yamaha have managed to bring influence to bear on Bridgestone in the past for Jorge to be provided with a suitable high edge grip tyre, and while Honda may well have more influence than Yamaha, Yamaha have much more influence than Jorge does as a departing rider who supposedly stole last year's championship from Yamaha's favoured rider, and whether or not this is true or Yamaha thinks it is true that is how he would seem to perceive he has been treated, with some justification imo. As I said, who else do you think is going to push for a tyre which mainly suits Jorge? As I understand it, and I do get confused between the front and rear Michelins, Michelin originally had a tyre which suited Jorge fine, as pre-season testing showed, which was later withdrawn, possibly and not unreasonably because of tyre detonations for Ducati riders. A non-detonating tyre with otherwise similar qualities does not seem to have materialised however.
 
Michelins testing pre season was done one an m1 with Edwards riding. I certainly say they at the very least had a small hand in development.

It's hindsight to say he never would've jumped on the GP11, Stoner took the GP10 to 3 wins towards the end of the season and according to everyone else he was Ducatis problem. So he likely may have made the jump like Rossi did. You're right though they're not the same machine, the GP10/11 was a proven race winner, while the version Lorenzo is jumping on can only win when there's a heap of straights on the track.

When you take Casey's really good and Crutchlow's really poor performances out of the equation, the bike seems to be pretty similar and if anything is slightly improved.

Casey GP10 - 3 wins 9 podiums 225 points 4th
Hayden GP10 - 1 podiums 163 points 7th
Rossi GP11 - 1 podiums 139 points 7th
Hayden GP11 - 1 podiums 132 points 8th

Dovi GP14 - 2 podiums 187 points 5th
Crutchlow GP14 - 1 podium 74 points 13th
Iannone GP15 - 3 podium 188 points 5th
Dovi GP15 - 5 podium 162 points 7th

Dovi GP16 - 3 podiums 124 points 6th
Iannone GP16 - 1 win 3 podiums 96 points 9th *injured
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When you take Casey's really good and Crutchlow's really poor performances out of the equation, the bike seems to be pretty similar and if anything is slightly improved.

Casey GP10 - 3 wins 9 podiums 225 points 4th
Hayden GP10 - 1 podiums 163 points 7th
Rossi GP11 - 1 podiums 139 points 7th
Hayden GP11 - 1 podiums 132 points 8th

Dovi GP14 - 2 podiums 187 points 5th
Crutchlow CH14 - 0 podium 74 points 13th
Iannone GP15 - 3 podium 188 points 5th
Dovi GP15 - 5 podium 162 points 7th

Dovi GP16 - 3 podiums 124 points 6th
Iannone GP16 - 1 win 3 podiums 96 points 9th *injured
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Stoner was certainly an alien but Rossi is supposed to be one as well so it's not unreasonable to expect that he would have a similar performance on the bike given that Hayden's performance was more or less the same. The point I'm making anyway is Rossi decision IMO wasn't a gamble in the same way that Lorenzos is, it has nothing to do with balls as Rossi says because he beleieved that he could win on it if Stoner could. If they hadn't added the red bull ring to the calender this year Ducati would still be winless so Lorenzos decision is a much bigger gamble(admittedly as said was a smaller one at the time) than Rossi took.
 
I think Suzuki may well have been better for him in terms of being competitive but that is where money very likely did come into it.

Your narrative also ignores direct quotes from Jorge after winning his 3rd title to the effect he was proud to be in the company of other triple title winners for Yamaha in KRSR, Lawson and Rainey, and that he wished to retire as a Yamaha icon like them. It is disingenuous to pretend that it his attitude to Yamaha rather than Yamaha's attitude to hiim which has prompted him to leave, or that Yamaha have not been influenced by their view or preference as to which rider will be iconic for them in retirement.
Well as you yourself have pointed out he'd been scouting around in previous years even as a Yamaha man.

For me, attitude is a rather nebulous term. More important is the tangible aspect i.e. what Yamaha provided him to win races, and as far as I can see they've never held back from ensuring he was as competitive on the track as they can make him.

But as I've mentioned earlier, all the reasons that prompted Rossi to leave Yamaha also applied to Lorenzo. He was a world champion who preferred being the #1 rider, being offered what was (at least at the time) a fairly competitive ride with a great money and directive control.

As far as tyres, Jorge and presumably Yamaha have managed to bring influence to bear on Bridgestone in the past for Jorge to be provided with a suitable high edge grip tyre
Did they really?
 
Well as you yourself have pointed out he'd been scouting around in previous years even as a Yamaha man.

For me, attitude is a rather nebulous term. More important is the tangible aspect i.e. what Yamaha provided him to win races, and as far as I can see they've never held back from ensuring he was as competitive on the track as they can make him.

But as I've mentioned earlier, all the reasons that prompted Rossi to leave Yamaha also applied to Lorenzo. He was a world champion who preferred being the #1 rider, being offered what was (at least at the time) a fairly competitive ride with a great money and directive control.


Did they really?

They certainly did. There was some whinging about it by Rossi fans, including the notorious Wosi, hater of all things non-Rossi whom I formerly debated on another forum.

I think it is quite possible to come up with good arguments for Yamaha wanting to back Rossi, whether or not I agree with them, but arguing that Lorenzo went to Ducati independent of whether he was happy with his situation at/treatment by Yamaha is disingenuous as I said, just as it would have been with Rossi in 2010. You can argue both should have been happy with equal status at both times, but Jorge was defending champion this year which Rossi was not, and Rossi will now be 38 in 2017 rather than 32 as he would have been at Yamaha in 2011. Jorge as well as saying he wanted to retire a Yamaha icon which you have chosen to ignore in your reply also said directly that he thought Yamaha preferred Rossi to win early this season.
 
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They certainly did. There was some whinging about it by Rossi fans, including the notorious Wosi, hater of all things non-Rossi whom I formerly debated on another forum.

I think it is quite possible to come up with good arguments for Yamaha wanting to back Rossi, whether or not I agree with them, but arguing that Lorenzo went to Ducati independent of whether he was happy with his situation at/treatment by Yamaha is disingenuous as I said, just as it would have been with Rossi in 2010. You can argue both should have been happy with equal status at both times, but Jorge was defending champion this year which Rossi was not, and Rossi will now be 38 in 2017 rather than 32 as he would have been at Yamaha in 2011. Jorge as well as saying he wanted to retire a Yamaha icon which you have chosen to ignore in your reply also said directly that he thought Yamaha preferred Rossi to win early this season.


Lorenzo can be the icon only of a factory which core business is producing excuses.
If the rain...if the helmet...if the tire...if the spinning...if the force of gravity...if if if
 
Lorenzo can be the icon only of a factory which core business is producing excuses.
If the rain...if the helmet...if the tire...if the spinning...if the force of gravity...if if if

I guess if you had a sense of irony you wouldn't be a Rossi bopper. How about it apparently being unfair that Lorenzo won the 2015 championship by scoring more points?

Your boy exceeded any other GP rider for excuse making or whinging by orders of magnitude at the end of the 2015 season, particularly the ludicrous contention that Marquez tanked a race at PI he actually won, beating Lorenzo and depriving him of 5 points
 
Lorenzo can be the icon only of a factory which core business is producing excuses.
If the rain...if the helmet...if the tire...if the spinning...if the force of gravity...if if if

He managed to have a winning record against other great riders, something Rossi has failed to do.
 
They certainly did. There was some whinging about it by Rossi fans, including the notorious Wosi, hater of all things non-Rossi whom I formerly debated on another forum.
Internet debates aside, is there any actual evidence that Yamaha prevailed upon Bridgestone to develop a tyre well-suited to Lorenzo?

That would provide any entirely new twist to the ongoing 'speculation' about Dorna conspiring with Michelin to produce up a Rossi-specific tyre.

I think it is quite possible to come up with good arguments for Yamaha wanting to back Rossi, whether or not I agree with them, but arguing that Lorenzo went to Ducati independent of whether he was happy with his situation at/treatment by Yamaha is disingenuous as I said, just as it would have been with Rossi in 2010. You can argue both should have been happy with equal status at both times, but Jorge was defending champion this year which Rossi was not, and Rossi will now be 38 in 2017 rather than 32 as he would have been at Yamaha in 2011.
He'd of course be happier if Rossi weren't around (just as Rossi would be happier if Lorenzo weren't around), but I don't see why that would hamper him from reaching his full potential as a racer in 2017/2018. His 'treatment by Yamaha' has been quite professional; this is his 7th year partnering Rossi, he could have comfortably made it to No.9 as well.

More importantly, what exactly are you suggesting that Yamaha should have done (tyres apart)? They did after all offer him a contract. Now if he'd been demoted to #2 status, I'd agree that Yamaha wasn't giving him a fair shake.

There's nothing unfair about equal status with Rossi. Sure he was world champion at the time, but then Rossi being world champion (in 2009) didn't stop Yamaha gave Lorenzo equal standing. Rossi may be 37 going on 38 but he's still racing as fast as Lorenzo and therefore deserves parity in the team.

Jorge as well as saying he wanted to retire a Yamaha icon which you have chosen to ignore in your reply also said directly that he thought Yamaha preferred Rossi to win early this season.
Rossi in 2008 said that he'd finish his career on a Yamaha (well, he will but not the way he implied it). People change their minds. And as you yourself have mentioned earlier, Lorenzo has dallied with other options in the past; he finalized his 2014 contract more than a month after Rossi did, following on plenty of speculation about moves to Ducati & Honda.

As to the other matter, question is, why after supposedly being arm-twisted by Dorna into taking Rossi back, does Yamaha favour him today.

Lorenzo in the very same interview clarifies matters further -

"I have never been worried about Rossi being more media-friendly and that he has more photographers around him. And I even see it as normal that Yamaha prefers him to win because of his popularity, because that way it would have sold more bikes.

"To me, the only thing that matters is to have the same equipment because I trust in my abilities and I know that with those rules I will do well. In that sense, this company is Japanese and very serious and it has always supported me as much as possible.
"


With his experience, grit & self-confidence, I'd say Lorenzo needs less emotional babysitting than any other rider on the grid.
 
He managed to have a winning record against other great riders, something Rossi has failed to do.

Not true, Rossi has won against all current riders and titles in 08 and 09 , not exactly a failure by any standards.
 
Not true, Rossi has won against all current riders and titles in 08 and 09 , not exactly a failure by any standards.
No he hasn't he has not won a championship against Marquez, only Lorenzo has done that
 
Rossi won championships against Stoner. Unfortunately for Rossi, Ducati, and the fans, Rossi then believed that he could go to Ducati and do better than Stoner. His ego never took a nap, though, and he put Ducati back 2-3 years with his poor input to development. He finally admitted to how good Stoner was, ate a little humble pie, took a "pay-cut" and returned to the Yamaha castle, where his aging alien status would be safer behind the thick walls of success.
 
Internet debates aside, is there any actual evidence that Yamaha prevailed upon Bridgestone to develop a tyre well-suited to Lorenzo?

That would provide any entirely new twist to the ongoing 'speculation' about Dorna conspiring with Michelin to produce up a Rossi-specific tyre.


He'd of course be happier if Rossi weren't around (just as Rossi would be happier if Lorenzo weren't around), but I don't see why that would hamper him from reaching his full potential as a racer in 2017/2018. His 'treatment by Yamaha' has been quite professional; this is his 7th year partnering Rossi, he could have comfortably made it to No.9 as well.

More importantly, what exactly are you suggesting that Yamaha should have done (tyres apart)? They did after all offer him a contract. Now if he'd been demoted to #2 status, I'd agree that Yamaha wasn't giving him a fair shake.

There's nothing unfair about equal status with Rossi. Sure he was world champion at the time, but then Rossi being world champion (in 2009) didn't stop Yamaha gave Lorenzo equal standing. Rossi may be 37 going on 38 but he's still racing as fast as Lorenzo and therefore deserves parity in the team.


Rossi in 2008 said that he'd finish his career on a Yamaha (well, he will but not the way he implied it). People change their minds. And as you yourself have mentioned earlier, Lorenzo has dallied with other options in the past; he finalized his 2014 contract more than a month after Rossi did, following on plenty of speculation about moves to Ducati & Honda.

As to the other matter, question is, why after supposedly being arm-twisted by Dorna into taking Rossi back, does Yamaha favour him today.

Lorenzo in the very same interview clarifies matters further -

Pp



With his experience, grit & self-confidence, I'd say Lorenzo needs less emotional babysitting than any other rider on the grid.
You argue your case better than many, but I fear you confuse your conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists. The underlying problem anyway for any Rossi supporter accusing anyone on this obscure Internet forum of propounding conspiracy theories is that Rossi has spent the last year alleging a rather major conspiracy to the whole world, and if the other thread is to be believed it took the great MotoGP mind and observational skills of Uccio to determine that MM nefariously won the PI 2015 race to screw Rossi, which makes the whole thing even less credible, something I would not have considered possible before Uccio spoke.

I thought myself Rossi was far and away the best candidate for the Yamaha seat in 2013; next in line was probably Espargaro.

Bridgestone as far as I know didn't ever design a tyre purely for Jorge, but they certainly produced a tyre which happened to uniquely suit him. The question was the availability of that tyre either in general or in the allocation for particular rounds. Michelin had a tyre at the start of the year which also quite suited him which is no longer available, for safety reasons because it tended to explode when run on Ducatis; to my knowledge no otherwise similar non-exploding replacement has appeared.

If I were Jorge I would certainly think the Yamaha team had backed Rossi's version of events last year, and I would be surprised if he had a view dissimilar to mine, being that version of events is preposterous and an insult to him particularly given the iron will, great composure under immense pressure and superior riding (certainly superior to Rossi's) in the late season races to win a 3rd championship for Yamaha. Jorge has apparently sinned more by his disapproval of Rossi's illegal actions at Sepang, which involved Rossi gaining a points advantage over Jorge by cheating, than Rossi did by his illegal take-out of MM. If you don't think Yamaha's attitude to him was influential in his decision to leave, you are kidding yourself.

I see no evidence Jorge didn't get equal treatment this year, and tend to think Rossi would have got equal treatment in 2011 had he stayed. Equal treatment is not what Rossi wanted or thought was his due then, however, and the same may well apply to Lorenzo now of course. Yamaha did seem to make Rossi's re-signing their priority this year, and there is certainly ample precedent for both Yamaha factory riders not getting equal treatment, cf Rossi's team-mates prior to Jorge, Jorge himself in 2008 given Rossi had Bridgestones, and Ben Spies.
 
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Not true, Rossi has won against all current riders and titles in 08 and 09 , not exactly a failure by any standards.



VR had the advantage of Bridgestone tyres in 08 over JL. In his first season on the Bridgestones in 09 JL pushed VR hard for the title.
It could be argued JL might have won in 09 if he had started on Bridgestones at the same time as VR as he'd have had more experience on those tyres.
 
Not true, Rossi has won against all current riders and titles in 08 and 09 , not exactly a failure by any standards.

Winning record means he won more than others, which he didn't. Same amount of title as Stoner though he spent more time on a better bike but less race wins. Less wins and championships than Lorenzo despite the Bridgestone advantage in 08, and the advantage of being familiar with Bridgestone in 09. Less wins and championships than Marquez who has wiped the floor with him. He has no winning record against a great rider other than Pedrosa who given he hasn't been able to win a championship is hard to consider great.
 
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VR had the advantage of Bridgestone tyres in 08 over JL. In his first season on the Bridgestones in 09 JL pushed VR hard for the title.
It could be argued JL might have won in 09 if he had started on Bridgestones at the same time as VR as he'd have had more experience on those tyres.

I thought coulda woulda wasn't allowed on here lol .
 
Winning record means he won more than others, which he didn't. Same amount of title as Stoner though he spent more time on a better bike but less race wins. Less wins and championships than Lorenzo despite the Bridgestone advantage in 08, and the advantage of being familiar with Bridgestone in 09. Less wins and championships than Marquez who has wiped the floor with him. He has no winning record against a great rider other than Pedrosa who given he hasn't been able to win a championship is hard to consider great.

No, I'm simply making the point that despite not winning any titles since 09 only his tenure at Ducati could really be regarded as a failure.
 

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