Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
I can't include Doohan and Ago in this because their eras don't overlap.
Rossi and Stoners do, and Stoner outrides Rossi anyday
Where will Stoner end up this year
- Thread starter BarryMachine
- Start date
I can't include Doohan and Ago in this because their eras don't overlap.
Rossi and Stoners do, and Stoner outrides Rossi anyday
I can't include Doohan and Ago in this because their eras don't overlap.
Rossi and Stoners do, and Stoner outrides Rossi anyday
To date, Rossi has beaten Stoner 4 out of 5 years. Stoner may very well be quicker on the Ducati than Rossi but the point is that Rossi has gotten the job done better than Stoner 80% of the time. This goes into my point - Stoner's job is unfinished (as is Rossi's however unlikely a lot of people believe). He needs to capitalise on his ability and get the job done, consistently. One can't conclude what you have based on the last 5 years with being biased one way or another. Objectively, the stats don't show it.
The other factor is that a lot of conclusions are being made about Rossi when he is injured. You could at least give the courtesy of waiting till he gets back to strength before concluding that he is no good on a Stoner originated Ducati.
I think barry is being deliberately mischievous as you no doubt appreciate.
I have thought along the same lines as you regarding comparing stoner and rossi, and I think this can only fairly be done over the time they have actually competed against each other as you have done, and as you say rossi is well ahead in terms of being ahead in the points at year's end. I doubt whether either of them is particularly interested in whether one finished 3rd whilst the other finished 4th though, and the real currency is championship wins, which rossi obviously leads 2 to 1, followed by race wins, which rossi only leads 26 to 24. This obviously doesn't make stoner the goat, and unlike valentino nor is he likely to become widely regarded as the goat in the future, but even at this stage in his career makes him pretty good.
Yes I do place a lot of importance on the championships won against each other but placings are also relevant when comparing at an individual level. Dani Pedrosa is the only rider to beat Rossi more than once in the standings in the last 5 years and yet he has never won a championship. I'm trying to figure that one out.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
I was just talking about race wins
which is a measure of their riding ability,
I was just talking about race winswhich is a measure of their riding ability,
If you just want to measure their riding abilities then you need to find out how many times they finished ahead of each other not just race wins
I was just talking about race winswhich is a measure of their riding ability,
It was very appropriate that you used the blinking confused emoticon as that is what everyone is by your statement. By your argument, in a season of 20 races a person who wins 10 times and comes last 10 times beats a person who wins 9 times and comes second 11 times. Ultimately the second person would get the championship that year.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
So .... in your scheme....... when will Stoner be in front of Rossi this year? because its very likely to happen too
So .... in your scheme....... when will Stoner be in front of Rossi this year? because its very likely to happen too
I can't be arsed to figure it out.
The problem with going by race wins is that it misses the context. More race wins in a season is irrelevant if the person with less wins gets the championship. That would be how Rossi lost 06. Ultimately, the wins need to be looked at in the context of the season as the championship leader may ride to ensure they get the championship rather than sacrificing it going for each win. Rossi has done this, Lorenzo has done this, others have done it.
Looking at wins on their own is the equivalent of determining the winner by looking at who has the most pole positions.
Not really apropos of stoner vs rossi, since stoner obviously hasn't been as good as rossi other than in 2007, but I think you will find in the long term that it is world championships followed by race wins that are notable (making as with any other statistic valentino rather handily placed regarding his standing in the sport, I would have thought), as is apparent from the readily available list to which barry referred to when he started this thread; you would have to dig fairly deep to find a list of those who have finished 1st, 2nd or 3rd in championships in motogp history, and possibly have to compile it yourself. I don't think anyone cares who the placegetters in a championship were 20 years later. Who was runner -up in 2005 even ?
More to the point since the riders you are referring to are rossi and stoner I don't think either of them values placing other than first in the championship ahead of race wins, otherwise valentino would have put more effort into finishing 2nd ahead of dani in the 2007 championship, and over most of his carreer valentino has basically tried to win every race regardless of the championship points situation.
Marco Melandri, and that is a very easily forgotten achievement. In the long run i agree that after titles, wins are the next most prestigious thing to have. A great example is Suzuki in 2007, Hopper was 4th overall on that bike and sureley the best performing rider Suzuki have had in a long time, but Chirs V gets remembered for actually winning them a race despite his lower placement.
With regards to Stoner, he is well on his way to making the current era 'his'. Rossi has the extra title but Stoner has the most wins, but it isn't a big stretch of the imagination to see Stoner getting a few more feathers in his hat this season. Rossi dominated the 990cc era, that was his, but that ended in 2006. Since then Rossi has remained a significant factor (rivaled only by Stoner), but with the arrival of Lorenzo and Pedrosa lingering throughout it is too early to declare who is 'the man' of this current era, that will be granted to us with hindsight. I think we'd all admit though that Stoner is favorite. No doubt he is one of the geats, if he can make this era his own he will be an altime great, if he can win somewhere in the region of 6 more titles we can start talking about GOATS. Thats the way i see it.
Yes i got that, you were illustrating the limited value of the runner up spot (and those that come after). I find the list of runners up in doohans title years has a similar effect, if i remember besides Criville they are mainly forgotten competitors.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
He beat Stoner in 2010?
Joined May 2009
6K Posts | 4K+
Shovel's Club
Bulshitmachine please stop! This is getting rather annoying. Stoner can never be the goat. He can never match Rossi in anything besides wins. He will never have the career Rossi did. He will never win the 125 or 250 titles or streak that many titles in a row. From the start of his career, he can never match what Rossi has done. So quit trying to math Caseys legacy against the goat, it will never match up to what Vale has accomplished. Your argument is laughable as always. Go back to your cave under a bridge. He will go down in history as a great rider for sure.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
What most amazes me about this forum, is just how educated about the sport people are but still hold on to this myth that its a level playing field. Sure Rossi has beat Stoner 4/5 times, and in that time Stoner has been on a Ducati. I sure hope Rossi would stick around for 4-5 more years on Ducati while Stoner sticks around on HRC. But I know Rossi will not stick around on a machine he can't beat everybody on. That is the difference, he will walk away, while people like Stoner, knowing they are on a flawed machine, will push.
Every time Rossi has not won, what has happened? Its always been big drama. Threats of leaving the sport or demands of getting exclusive treatment. You can go claiming he's the best, bla bla bla, but right now, all of you should begin to understand one thing, GP is about the mouse trap. Its about the machine you ride. Take a better than average rider like Rossi, put him on the best machine, you will get titles. Can you say Rossi is better than Stoner? Is that you're conclusion from the titles he's won? I have no doubt Stoner, had he been Rossi's teammate, where the manufacture would have had the balls that Yamaha had to give their riders equal treatment, Stoner (after his rookie season) would have beat him or at least pushed him every single year!!!
He beat Stoner in 2010?Could have sworn it was Lorenzo who won the championship that year.
In an individual comparison, Rossi finished ahead of stoner in 2010. I'm not putting spin on this. I'm directly comparing one rider to another, not to the field.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Bare in mind - Stoner is 7 years younger than Rossi - and has the potential to win a .... load of races in that time.
Moreover - over time - folks will have historical perspective on just how big a piece of .... the Ducati is/was
and people will look back at Stoner's accomplishments in terms of more wins in the 800cc era than any
other rider ON A DUCATI.
His record of wins in Australia as younger man - are not inconsiderable either.
It's a little early to count him out as a one-shot wonder. Personally I don't give a ....
if he is or isn't the Goat. Comparisons of Rossi to Hailwood or Agostini are largely
meaningless because of the differences in tracks, racing regulations, quality of machinery
and quality of competitors. After a while all this who's a goat or not a goat etc.
starts to sound like a bunch of 7 year old girls arguing whether Superman could beat Jesus.
Joined Jan 2011
3K Posts | 152+
The North!
Of course Stoner can't match Rossi as Stoner is riding in an era where the grid (albeit small) is filled with talent including Rossi himself. The grids during most of Rossi's championship seasons where filled with chumps. He never raced against the previous multi champion.
The other reason Stoner can't match Rossi is because Stoner is Australian and Rossi is Italian. In euro (Spanish & Italian) biased sport Stoner is always going to be fighting against his nationality.
Good post.
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