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Turkey SPOILER

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (baldylocks @ Apr 23 2007, 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>PS - I hardly think we can say that "Elias beat Rossi in a straight-up fight and Rossi doesn't like it" (or words to that effect)

Rossi clearly had a problem and therefore the terms where not level - I like Elias & I like watching him ride but being good at the odd track doesn't make you a world champion.

yeah yeah - I'm a cheerleader

No you're right, if Elias hangs it out like that every race then yes he is world championship material, we were wanting to see racing like that from Hayden and Pedrosa, we've got our wish, but with Elias. Hoping there is a lot more from Elias, very entertaining to watch, when he is having a good day.........but that can be said for all riders hey.

But in Rossi's defence, he nursed that bike round the track when a lot of lesser riders would have just parked it, so I have still utmost respect for the guy, he didn't give up places without a fight he was still racing even for 10th so well done. Just don't whinge lol.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 23 2007, 10:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree with you roger. Even despite what OJ says, as crashes happen fast and can be confusing. I was watching that insident in slow mo several times. The Norwegian commentators saw that some one touched OJ and first I said hell no, who should that be. But later I had to agree, Pedrosa did hit OJ's rear. The only question is if that directly influenced the crash or not. To me it looks like it did.


Could you guys be more desperate to blame Pedrosa?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tinks @ Apr 23 2007, 09:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree they commented he's let Rossi drag him up in the past. Oh well next race he'll probably be back to 10/11th whatever he normally comes + hopefully we'll be back winning
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I agree aout Stoner where was he in the second race? This weekend Ducati for their power on the massive straight + Bridgestone for a brilliant tyre won that race. Im not saying Stoner doesn't have skill but he couldnt apply it in the 2nd race.

This year Elias has had a 4th, a 2nd and an off track excursion from a very competative place, i wouldn't be so sure about him falling outside the top ten so often anymore.

And Stoner was 5th in Jerez, not bad in the greater scheme of things. The power and tires blah blah blah won the race??? How do you explain the gap between Casey and Loris, i guess it was just "luck" that he could ride faster than anyone else in the world.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (K.J. @ Apr 23 2007, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Times 10! He was kickass... from the crash right through to the race end he rode that bike with a bent handlebar. 20 laps worth.... he's a machine.

Hell yeah!
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Elias' pass happened before rossi encountered his trouble so i would certainly call it a fair scrap. However i am not so sure the Jerez 05 comparison is valid because the Jerez move was far worse. Yesterday two riders touched in the breaking area, both straight up and before the corner, and there was no significant consequence. In jerez Rossi went in way late and bashed with Sete wile lent over, causing sete to go way off track, rossi himslef almost at the white line, but i thought that was hard but fair (just).

The move is more comparable to Gibernau on tamada at Motegi 2003. Although Tamada was pushed off track and Sete peanalised, most would agree that was way too harsh punishment given in the backlash of Kato's death.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 23 2007, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The move is more comparable to Gibernau on tamada at Motegi 2003. Although Tamada was pushed off track and Sete peanalised, most would agree that was way too harsh punishment given in the backlash of Kato's death.
off topic but i was the other way round tom. gibbers ended up in the litter and tamada got unfairly punished for it.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 23 2007, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>off topic but i was the other way round tom. gibbers ended up in the litter and tamada got unfairly punished for it.

yeah that sound right, my bad guys
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l13eaw @ Apr 23 2007, 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nice explaining there Mr Shupe.
I see your point Babelfish, but did you not see Rossi's pass on Hopper a couple of laps before? Looked fairly similar to Elias' pass to me bar the touch. That's why I can't really agree with Rossi on that score, he wasn't on the last lap either, but I suppose it depends on your bias really. Notwithstanding Jerez 05, just Turkey 07, I can't see how Rossi has the gall to complain. but all adds to the drama for the next race. BRING IT ON
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XX Liz

I can't remember that pass, and as I haven't seen others mention it I assume that was a much more controlled pass. Elias had two moments during that pass. Fisrst when he scrapped paint with rossi, still on the straigt, later in a two wheel slide pushing rossi out. I think Elias does a decent description of the situation himself at autosport, considering what corner he sists in.
Anyway, I see only minor differences here. We both agree it was within the limits of tough racing.
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I think there must of been about 10 similar moves in that race similar to the Rossi/Elias incident. There wasn't anything remotetly harsh about the move, Elias had the inside line, they touched abit ( which happens all the damn time ) he then out braked Rossi into the corner, Rossi outbraked himself and went wide and nearly lost the front end, Elias then almost lost the front aswell and then Rossi fell into tyre issues. I've never heard a rider complain about a move like that, especially coming from the king of hard moves himself. No one complained about Jerez 05 were, IMO, Rossi should of been penalised but we have seen softer overtaking in the past that have resulted in much harsher punishment.

I just think he cant take the fact that someones not intimidated by him and can match him one on one.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Electric Mofo @ Apr 23 2007, 07:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi should of been penalised but we have seen softer overtaking in the past that have resulted in much harsher punishment.

I just think he cant take the fact that someones not intimidated by him and can match him one on one.
no he should'nt have. it was a hard move, thats all. just like elias's move, hard. the tamada/sete incident at motegi was a love tap. that resulted in a rediculous disqualification for tamada because sete complained. hopper was disqualified for the 1st turn wreck in the same race then banned from the next race. loris capirrosi did the same thing as hopper did the next year with far worse results & recieved no penalty at all. lets not forget rossi's brilliant passing manouver on marco milandri at motegi either which also resulted in no penalty. if elias were not spanish do you think he would have been penalized for his percieved dangerous move?
 
Tom said:
Could you guys be more desperate to blame Pedrosa?
Yeah sure, I have such an obvious motive for blaming Pedrosa:
- Constantly rating him as the best Repsol rider,
- having him as my first rider in FGP,
- being one of the few at this forum that always thought he just did an honest mistake last year taking Hayden out.
- not buying into the theories that he is fast because of low weight, or that Honda would be stupid enough to build the bike for the smallest rider exclusively.
Defiantly one of those with Pedrosa hating goggles on.

So, back to you TOM:
Could anyone be more desperate to: (take a pick)
1. Disagree just to disagree
2. Free Pedrosa from blame where it might be due

I told you what I saw, and knowing where to look it's in plain sight for anyone with their eyes open.

You just keep your eyes shut but don't stop coming here with ridiculous accusations.

We can continue the discussion when you are able acknowledge what actually happened. Then we can discuss what influence that had to the actual big crash.
As you (might) notice I'm not directly blaming Pedrosa right now, just pointing out the <u>fact </u>that he did touch OJ just ms before the big crash. That is a pretty close suggestion of who is to blame, but I'll take a closer look to the situation tonight and I don't rule out that OJ's speed was too high and that the crash would have happened regardless of pedrosa's touch.

But then again, IF he is to blame here, I think it is worse than what happened at Estoril. That one was a calculated risk that went bad, the first time ever for him, this one on the other hand could easily be avoided and could be a lot more questionable. At least it would point to carelessness.

phleg' post='62084' date='Apr 23 2007 said:
I'd love to know what went wrong with his tyre. He did not over ride it, he's a freaking 7x champ, he knows not to do that.
Click to expand...

I agree, Michelin suggests production error, not on the rubber as at laguna seca but on the internals. It would also explain why Rossi said he had problems as soon as the tire heated up to normal race temp. His tire didn't go bad on lap 13 or what ever, it rather got exponentially worse. Rideable for a few laps, but at the lap Elias passed him, he allready had lost a little to Stoner, while gaining on the laps before despite passing riders. He set the second fastest lap in the race on lap 4 (assuming he and Hopper where the only ones in the 1:54.0x range) and in reality I think it was downhill from there.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 23 2007, 05:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What makes this such a great race? To me it was almost as boring as the Jerez race. Stoner went away allmost imediatly. Second place was open a few more laps than at Jerez, but there was a bad crash taking out potential top runners. On the other hand the 3rd was open all the way, but just like jerez, the fight for 3rd - 7th has IMO limited interest when there is no fight for the 1st.
why does the race have to be for 1st to be interesting to u? i think ur missing the point. it's the journey not the destination.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 23 2007, 02:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>why does the race have to be for 1st to be interesting to u? i think ur missing the point. it's the journey not the destination.
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Agreed, but:

I'd rather watch two people scrapping hell for leather for a win, rather than for third place.

It's exciting, but not as exciting as if it were for first.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 23 2007, 01:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>no he should'nt have. it was a hard move, thats all. just like elias's move, hard. the tamada/sete incident at motegi was a love tap. that resulted in a rediculous disqualification for tamada because sete complained. hopper was disqualified for the 1st turn wreck in the same race then banned from the next race. loris capirrosi did the same thing as hopper did the next year with far worse results & recieved no penalty at all. lets not forget rossi's brilliant passing manouver on marco milandri at motegi either which also resulted in no penalty. if elias were not spanish do you think he would have been penalized for his percieved dangerous move?

The power of the passport my friend.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ Apr 23 2007, 08:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Agreed, but:

I'd rather watch two people scrapping hell for leather for a win, rather than for third place.

It's exciting, but not as exciting as if it were for first.
well of course... but fish said it was almost as "boring" as the jerez race. jerez was not boring. maybe not as exciting as turkey but certainly not boring. so point being the boring part.
 
I think it is not passport related at all. In fact i think the entire issue has been blown out of proportion by both rossi and the media because of the history from last year. Any two riders other than rossi and elias and nobody would say a thing (except stoner who tends to complain about other riders a lot)
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Electric Mofo @ Apr 23 2007, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No one complained about Jerez 05 were,

I guess that describe youre grip of reality in that post.
FYI: There were pleny of hard discussions after that move, and many cried for penalty. (Just like you)

Why this move were not like the 10 others:
1. Touching is allways dangerous and more so at some places than others. At maximum braking it is as dangerous as it gets, but more important, there is no reason what so ever to move that close on the staright. I.E. it was dangerous and it was unnecessary.
2. Secondly, Elias was out of control in a two wheel slide unable to turn in while Rossi had his braking under control (this time) but had nowhere to go when elias came sliding and ended deep into the dust (where he also finally had a slide).
And all this is ok, on the tougher side but ok, but had very little in common with the rest of the passings in that turn.
Elias himslef discribe the same to points as dangerous himself and I tend to agree with him.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Could anyone be more desperate to: (take a pick)
1. Disagree just to disagree

Well you should know by now i love a good fight Babel, but i don't argue things when i don't actualy think i am right.

It was fairly clear on the t.v that in a very busy corner on the first lap, OJ out breaked himself by miles, took to the inside bareley in control, the tail of his bike took Pedrosa down and his nose went into Edwards. Obviously we all know what happened next. But after the OJ himself says the very same thing you and roger still seem fairly confident that Pedrosa hit OJ. I guess you could call it that since technically Oj was in front but he was also going way faster than Dani and there is no doubt that Jacque caused the accident.

and thats that cleared up.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 23 2007, 01:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>no he should'nt have. it was a hard move, thats all. just like elias's move, hard. the tamada/sete incident at motegi was a love tap. that resulted in a rediculous disqualification for tamada because sete complained.
i agree.
theres a fine line between close racing and dangrous riding,
 
the pass was good and legal.
usually saved for late race but is perfectly fine.
rossi would have ended up in the back anyways because of his tires and all that what-not.

might have been smarter to follow rossi but then he would have tied him up with all his slowing down.

2nd place is a good place for him. maybe he is getting out of melandri's shadow now?
 

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