Turkey SPOILER

I am not just saying this coz i am a Rossi fan, but i thought that Toni Elias move was dangerous. I love watching Elias ride (when he isn't following someone as you always get the feeling an accident could happen at any moment!). But contact in a braking zone is always dangerous (see Barcelona 2006).

I don't know whether Valentino did something to his tyres being forced wide by Elias but after that incident he was never back up to speed.

Compared to Olivier Jacque's attempt at a pass, Elias was very safe!

I thought that was a great race, and it's such a shame that this will probably be the last one at Istanbul Park for the forseeable future.

1st: Casey Stoner - A

Got a good start, was quickly past Edwards, and gifted the lead by a Rossi mistake. Didn't put a foot wrong all race, and probably had more pace if he'd needed it. He said he was very nervous before the race, but it didn't show. A very mature ride.

2nd: Toni Elias - A

Mr. Entertainment was great value again. His scrap with Rossi was one of the highlights of the race, but also cost him any chance at catching Stoner.

3rd: Loris Capirossi - B

Strange race from Capirossi. He quickly found himself in second, but then didn't really do anything. Fell back as far as sixth at one stage, before coming strong at the end. He was lucky to pinch third from Barros, but the podium will do his confidence a world of good. It will be interesting to see if he can bridge the gap to Stoner in the coming rounds.

4th: Alex Barros - B+

Barros would be disappointed not come away with a podium, and I don't think he'll have that many more chances to get this close to one this season. Ironically, it was Capriossi's high-speed wobble on the back straight that cost Barros third, in my opinion. If he'd been behind Capirossi coming to the end of straight I think he would've put his often-quoted late-braking skills to good use and taken third. As it was, he seemed to have no reference point and looked too tentative on the brakes. All things considered, Capirossi's pass was quite smooth. Still a great result for his team, though.

5th: Marco Melandri - B

Like Capirossi, he was there or thereabouts all race, but didn't really seem to do much. It was a strong consistent ride, and hopefully he can build on that. I don't imagine he liked seeing his teammate in p2, however, nor Gresini being so chummy with Elias (and his dad) after the race...

6th: John Hopkins - B-

The holy grail of a podium was there for the taking, and again he came up short. At least he brought the bike home this time, and sixth is not too shabby. I don't think it's so clear cut whether it's the Suzuki or Hopkins that is keeping him from that dias now. There were a few moments where Hopkins was passed by other riders, and he tried too hard to cling to a position that was already taken--as a result losing ground. No doubt, he will have found it immensely satisfying taking sixth off Hayden on the last lap.

7th: Nicky Hayden - C+

Given his dire performance all weekend in practice (apart from an excellent qualifying lap) 7th was probably a better than expected result. He'd be disappointed at losing 6th to Hopkins at the end, but probably equally disappointed that he wasn't in the mix for 3rd-5th given his mid-race surge. He took 7th at Jerez as well, but this was a much better 7th, and much closer to the front.

8th: Randy dePuniet - C+

He finished! That makes two races in a row! Not much you can say, really. Top ten finishes are all Kawasaki can hope for, unless something dramatic happens (rain, sabotage, bookmakers from the sub-continent turn to MotoGP)...

9th: Alex Hoffman - C

He'll be able to tell his grandchildren that he passed Rossi in a race. Still, on a day where it was a decided advantage to have Bridgestones (and be on a Ducati) you'd think he could have at least equalled his best ever finish, 8th...

10th: Valentino Rossi - n/a

A mistake on the first lap, which he was lucky to recover from, set the tone for Mr. 7 times. In practice, he was the only one besides Stoner to string together a lot of laps in the low 1:54s, but alas a rematch of Qatar wasn't to be. I couldn't give him a rating because I'm not sure if his tyre problems were of his own making (in which case a D for ........), or they stemmed from Michelin's once-a-year-we-....-over-Vale policy (in which case a B+ for soldiering on and bringing it home). Should've kept his mouth shut after the race (re: Elias).

11th: Chris Vermeulen - A+

The ride of the race. The only time we saw him was picking the bike up off of Pedrosa's. From dead last, on a damaged bike, he matched pace with Stoner, picked off five riders, was only 10 seconds back from Rossi, and managed to set the fastest lap as well. Sure, he had nothing to lose, and probably couldn't have set those times in traffic, but his pace was still impressive. Who will finish the year as the top Suzuki rider?

12th: Carlos Checa - C-

It was a tough day to be on Michelins, no doubt, but Jerez looks like a flash in the pan for Checa, either side of a 12th and a DNF. I think he's just keeping the LCR seat warm for Dovioso next year.

13th: Shinya Nakano - D

Nakano is in deep ..... His confidence is shot, and the light at the end of the tunnel is very small and very distant. Wonder if he's at all green with envy?

14th: Makoto Tamada - D

Different bike, different tyres. Same result. With no Ilmor Tech 3 are the professional last place finishers, but at least Checa showed some spirit on occasions last year...

15th: Sylvain Guintoli - C+

Less than a second behind his teammate, who didn't have an off track excursion at the end of lap one.

16th: Kenny Roberts JR - ???

WTF?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 23 2007, 12:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Could you guys be more desperate to blame Pedrosa?
im not at all desperate to blame asimo, i just say it as i saw it. oj may be to blame,he may have been off line,anything is possable when you have several riders all after the same line in and out of a corner.
what i believe i saw was pedrosa slow very suddenly and at that very moment oj go flying.it looked like a rear end shunt to me.
i think the reason a lot of people missed this was because it happened very quickly and not in the middle of your tv screen where your eyes would normally focas. i watched it 6 times and it was the 3rd time i noticed it so have another look.

Olivier Jacque's move was obviously optimistic to put it mildly and took out several other riders.

2 questions:

1. When Chris Vermeulen's bike got stuck on top of Dani's bike it didn't stall and he got going again but all the other bikes did not get going again. Did landing on top of the bike stop it getting damaged or what?

2. Any news on the possible "injuries" sustained by Dani Pedrosa and particularly Olivier Jacque?

Also, i haven't bothered to read all 90 odd other posts and dunno if anyone has said much about Nicky Hayden. I think he must of rode one of the best races of the day along with Casey Stoner. Nicky was top Michelin (after Rossi's tyre problems by quite a way as 8 of the top 9 runners were on bridgestones. Chris Vermeulen must of rode a good race as he finished just a few seconds behind Hoffman and Rossi etc despite being taken out by Jacque on lap 1 and losing a lot of time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rising Sun @ Apr 23 2007, 03:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I thought that was a great race, and it's such a shame that this will probably be the last one at Istanbul Park for the forseeable future.
good post rising sun
didnt quote all because of length.

Maybe it is a moot point that we're arguing over here, since Jacque has accepted the blame and apologised, BUT...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 23 2007, 10:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It was fairly clear on the t.v that in a very busy corner on the first lap, OJ out breaked himself by miles, took to the inside bareley in control, the tail of his bike took Pedrosa down and his nose went into Edwards. Obviously we all know what happened next. But after the OJ himself says the very same thing you and roger still seem fairly confident that Pedrosa hit OJ. I guess you could call it that since technically Oj was in front but he was also going way faster than Dani and there is no doubt that Jacque caused the accident.

and thats that cleared up.
I agree with roger-m for once (I hope he doesn't choke on his beer when he reads that )

My take on the accident:

At the point of accident Pedrosa is inside Jacque. Jacque is out of control, clearly, and trying very hard to pull up and not hit Edwards. Pedrosa touches/hits Jacque's back wheel, goes down taking Vermeulen with him, Jacque cannons into Edwards, highsides, and Edwards goes down.

If you hit someone from behind--without any help--is it possible to highside like that?

Now I think that Jacque's antics left Pedrosa with nowhere to go, so I don't lay any blame at Pedrosa's feet whatsoever, but that's how I see the chain of events.

Dani Pedrosa sustained no fractures after having x-rays on his neck and chest which is good news. He will wear a collar for a few days to avoid sudden movements and relax muscles.

So, here's my take on the race as I saw it today. First of all, what a race!

Ratings:

1st: Casey Stoner - A+
He's come on so far from "Crashey" to being Ducati's big hope for the future. I was a little confused when they chose Casey for this season, but its payed off for them. He used his advantage well and disappeared from the start. Nobody could touch him today and he didn't put a foot wrong. A great race.

2nd: Toni Elias - A+

Lets face it, nobody was catching Stoner today, Elias gave 110% and raced brilliantly. His lines were different to everyone elses and they seemed to work for him. His overtaking was good if a little reckless, but it all came together today and I hope we see more of him in the front pack in the coming races.

3rd: Loris Capirossi - B

I, like rising sun, don't know what to make of Loris. Seeing another Duke so far ahead of him, and a newbie to the team as well, was strange, and must be for Loris too. He should have been able to get clear of the pack today and finish a strong third, or even second.

4th: Alex Barros - A+

I think Barros should be very pleased with his finish today. Lets not forget that Pramac were a bottom team last year, and this proves that they still have some ability in them. He was battling with some of the best, and holding with them despite being on the lesser bike was impressive.

5th: Marco Melandri - A-

And the Marco Random Number Generator strikes again. I was going to give him a B- for being second Gresini today, which shouldn't happen to him, but then I remembered that he qualified 14th and was having trouble all weekend. He picked it up on raceday as usual, him and Colin Edwards should talk, they seem to be opposites on the track. Maybe you'd get a rider who can set great qualifying laps and then lap consistently and quickly during the race.

6th: John Hopkins - B+

I respect Hoppers loyalty to Suzuki, but I do think that on any other bike (excepting Kawasaki) he could have taken the podium there. He certainly wasn't far off ability-wise, and his late braking helped him with getting past people. A strong solid race, and thats the most Suzuki can ask for.

7th: Nicky Hayden - C
Lets say I'm not counting on another title from Hayden, but he still did relatively well to the last couple of races. He looked consistent and comfortable on the bike and thats a first this season.

8th: Randy dePuniet - B

Raced well and managed to hold onto the leading pack for a very long time, first time he hasn't tried too hard and thrown it or not tried and finished in the bottom five. I was actually impressed for the first time by him!

9th: Alex Hoffman - C+

As rising sun said, he'll be able to say he passed Rossi in a race, but more than that, considering his usual fight is with Checa, Nakano, Tamada and Roberts, he raced above his usual ability, for the first time we've actually seen him in a race!

10th: Valentino Rossi - B-

I'm going on the assumption that Vale was drawn into a battle for the top 5 that he didn't want to get involved in. He didn't realise that he was pushing too hard until it was too late and his tyres were shot to hell. Overall he should be upset at Michelin for the uncompetitive tyres, but not at Elias. First time I've heard him whine over losing like that, and the threat of recrimination at China was just not on in my opinion.

11th: Chris Vermeulen - A

Great ride from Chris, no messing after the accident, no whining or yelling, just got back on his bike, did his job and did it brilliantly, recovered it back to 11th. He can be pleased with that.

12th: Carlos Checa - D

Just wasn't there today, I have a lot of respect for Carlos but he wasn't even close to competitive.

13th: Shinya Nakano - D

Invisible all season, he'll need to seriously pick up the pace. I don't know whats going wrong there, but there needs to be a major shake up in Konica Minolta Honda.

14th: Makoto Tamada - D

Tamada's change of bike was his chance to shine, he really hasn't done that yet, but he'll feel better with the fact that neither have KM Honda.

15th: Sylvain Guintoli - C

What can I say? I'm not amazed to be honest, but he got a point.

16th: KRJR: - N/A

Wrong tyres? Wrong bike? I reckon Lorenzo, Dovi and even Corsi and Olive would have overtaken him today. I'm not even going to gift that a rating!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IsraeliRacer @ Apr 23 2007, 05:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>4th: Alex Barros - A+

I think Barros should be very pleased with his finish today. Lets not forget that Pramac were a bottom team last year, and this proves that they still have some ability in them. He was battling with some of the best, and holding with them despite being on the lesser bike was impressive.

I don't wanna take anything away from Barros, but his ducati is the same as the other three ducatis. Hoffman said in an interview that they currently have the same kit as the Malboro lot in their team.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IsraeliRacer @ Apr 23 2007, 05:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>6th: John Hopkins - B+

I respect Hoppers loyalty to Suzuki, but I do think that on any other bike (excepting Kawasaki) he could have taken the podium there. He certainly wasn't far off ability-wise, and his late braking helped him with getting past people. A strong solid race, and thats the most Suzuki can ask for.

Theres not much wrong with that Suzuki, given that one with a bent bar and broken fairing got the fastest lap of the race. Hopkins is a very good rider, but he needs to find a bit more to prove himslef, and he devinately needs to watch out for his team mate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 23 2007, 01:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>no he should'nt have. it was a hard move, thats all. just like elias's move, hard. the tamada/sete incident at motegi was a love tap. that resulted in a rediculous disqualification for tamada because sete complained. hopper was disqualified for the 1st turn wreck in the same race then banned from the next race. loris capirrosi did the same thing as hopper did the next year with far worse results & recieved no penalty at all. lets not forget rossi's brilliant passing manouver on marco milandri at motegi either which also resulted in no penalty. if elias were not spanish do you think he would have been penalized for his percieved dangerous move?

Bloddy hell! you make it sound like Elias Road rashed Rossi, maybe Elias should send a written invitation the next time he wants overtake Rossi.

Your on a differant planet If you think Elias move was comparable to jerez 05

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IsraeliRacer @ Apr 23 2007, 05:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>16th: KRJR: - N/A

Wrong tyres? Wrong bike? I reckon Lorenzo, Dovi and even Corsi and Olive would have overtaken him today. I'm not even going to gift that a rating!

I'll give a rating:

U

The only other changes i would make are

Elias - A (down from A+ due to dodgy overtakes)

Barros - A (if he has same bike as Stoner and Capirossi)

Hayden - B (outperformed all other michelin hondas by miles)

Rossi - B+ (as problems not his fault.)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Electric Mofo @ Apr 23 2007, 05:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your on a differant planet If you think Elias move was comparable to jerez 05

Yeah i said that earlier, the Jerez move was infinately worse, but that just strengthens the point that rossi is guilty of optomistic passes himself, and should not really be making such an issu of it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Electric Mofo @ Apr 23 2007, 05:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your on a differant planet If you think Elias move was comparable to jerez 05

The jerez 05 move was different circumstances. I know it was an optimistic move by Rossi but lets be honest with Sete winning Valentino was hardly going to not have a go was he!

The thing with that move is Sete did cut across the corner very sharply and should of known Valentino would be there. I'm not saying Rossi should take no blame for it but Sete should take a bit as he should of been ready for the obvious move.

With the Elias move had the contact of been a bit more which it was lucky it wasn't as Valentino almost had to swerve to avoid him, the accident could have been bad coz we have seen what can happen when bikes collide under braking and that accident last year at Catalunya was far worse than jerez 05.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 23 2007, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah i said that earlier, the Jerez move was infinately worse,
to be honest i personaly dont think there was anythging wrong with the jerez move, sete tryed to out break but he was on the outside of the track so rossi held him there a bit longer as a defence move. thats racing tuff .... he should have tred for the inside line.
im also not to bothered about elais move either, all racing moves imo. its not as if someone stuck a boot out to get someone off,

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Apr 23 2007, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I guess that describe youre grip of reality in that post.
FYI: There were pleny of hard discussions after that move, and many cried for penalty. (Just like you)

Why this move were not like the 10 others:
1. Touching is allways dangerous and more so at some places than others. At maximum braking it is as dangerous as it gets, but more important, there is no reason what so ever to move that close on the staright. I.E. it was dangerous and it was unnecessary.
2. Secondly, Elias was out of control in a two wheel slide unable to turn in while Rossi had his braking under control (this time) but had nowhere to go when elias came sliding and ended deep into the dust (where he also finally had a slide).
And all this is ok, on the tougher side but ok, but had very little in common with the rest of the passings in that turn.
Elias himslef discribe the same to points as dangerous himself and I tend to agree with him.

1. There was an incident with Caparossi, Barros, Melandri and Hopkins during the race were all could of ended up in the gravel. People touch, they nudge they even use their legs to block people from passing (Monza 06, Haga incident) guess what thats racing. When riders are at maximum brake it is'nt about how close you are to each other, its about whos bravest to the turn. The only way Elias would of been at fault would be if, he gave Rossi little room to move or if he visibaly used his body and bike to push Rossi of the track. Elias did neither, so he is not at fault. How do you think people overtake? you think they give their opponent 5 metres of space between braking and then get let through?

2. Almost 99% of extreme braking is done in an slide, wether it be in a cheap car and F1 car or a moto GP bike. Elias showed at Estoril by out braking both Roberts and Rossi that he is the last of the last brakers and he does it in trademark style with a slide. If anyone was unable to control their machine it was Rossi because he completly missed the apex and went wide, whilst Elias made the corner. Elias done what Ive seen Rossi, Haga, Elias, Hopkins, Corser do in the past years so why the fuss when Rossi on the recieving end?

Last season especially I've seen Rossi take overly defensive lines, use questionable overtaking methods ( remember how he overtook Pedrosa at Brno ) nudge people and people said nothing. How many times have with heard the Eurosport commentators say "Hard but Fair" deal with it.
Start enjoying the spectacle that is MotoGP and the not the spectacle that is Rossi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Apr 23 2007, 06:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The jerez 05 move was different circumstances. I know it was an optimistic move by Rossi but lets be honest with Sete winning Valentino was hardly going to not have a go was he!

The thing with that move is Sete did cut across the corner very sharply and should of known Valentino would be there. I'm not saying Rossi should take no blame for it but Sete should take a bit as he should of been ready for the obvious move.

With the Elias move had the contact of been a bit more which it was lucky it wasn't as Valentino almost had to swerve to avoid him, the accident could have been bad coz we have seen what can happen when bikes collide under braking and that accident last year at Catalunya was far worse than jerez 05.

Thats not how I saw it!

What I saw Rossi getting desperate under pressure. He had already out braked himslef and at the final corner he barged Gibernau off the track.

Let me be more specific,
If you look at the video on youtube, look at Rossi's foot, look how close it is to the grass and white line. No rider should even be there and there's no possible way anyone would of been able to make the turn that close to the white line. Gibernau had a defensive line and Rossi straight speared him, used him to correct his racing line and then won the race.

But I do agree with you when you say that Gibbers should of seen Rossi because IMO, If he had let Rossi move ahead, Rossi would of ran-wide.
But this is 2 years ago so who cares.

I think Hopkins was extremely impressive! He just made the mistake out running wide and lost some places, had it not been for that Im sure he'd of got a podium.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 23 2007, 07:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>no he should'nt have. it was a hard move, thats all…

Agreed!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 23 2007, 08:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Any two riders other than rossi and elias and nobody would say a thing…

Agreed! Except that it can be about any two riders that can create polemic and controversy like Championship contenders. So otherwise was the case of Gibernau’s move on Melandri in Estoril ’04 and nobody game a dam about it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 23 2007, 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>to be honest i personaly dont think there was anythging wrong with the jerez move, sete tryed to out break but he was on the outside of the track so rossi held him there a bit longer as a defence move. thats racing tuff .... he should have tred for the inside line.
im also not to bothered about elais move either, all racing moves imo. its not as if someone stuck a boot out to get someone off,

I agree, both moves were tough but acceptable racing, these things happen.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Apr 23 2007, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'll give a rating:

U

The only other changes i would make are

Elias - A (down from A+ due to dodgy overtakes)

Barros - A (if he has same bike as Stoner and Capirossi)

Hayden - B (outperformed all other michelin hondas by miles)

Rossi - B+ (as problems not his fault.)

You made me laugh , but I’ll say:

“KRJR = U” (minus)…

And:

“Hayden - B (outperformed all other michelin hondas by miles)”

Dani wasn’t there!