IME it is engineers that develop motorcycles.
Riders give feedback which crew chiefs distil into settings. They both feed back to the factory what worked and what didn't and the engineers go through another cycle of development. In the days of two-strokes, the talented team engineers (like Kanemoto) could exert more influence on the bike and thus, the rider would be directly involved in development as they tested various exhaust and rotary disk/jetting combos. Now that sort of thing is the province of the factory engineers with the computers.
Racers don't develop anything anymore, but without sufficient, analytical and targeted feedback, the engineers may be throwing darts in the dark. The job of the team is to make the bike the factory develop work as best it can, on the day, for the conditions.
Rossi's strength, apart from riding fast, is in his ability to succinctly and accurately explain what is happening and what he is doing. This enables the team to better understand what the effect of that one click or Nm of torque had on the handling of the bike, what effect the TC or anti-wheelie is doing at a particular point in time. The engineers have access to all of the logs for extensive analysis back at the factory which they use with the human feedback to get a picture of the dynamics involved. The more detailed and accurate the feedback, the better able the engineers are able to distil the data into a meaningful model.
What Rossi doesn't do is to develop the bike, new parts, chassis, suspension units, engines. But he is really good at assessing the various bits as they are given to him and working out which bit did what and why.
That he is not getting anywhere with Ducati seems to be in part due to a lack of will - he is despondent after 18 months of not getting anywhere - but also has to be as a result of not getting any movement with the engineering. The problems he is reporting aren't being resolved. I believe Stoner whined about the same thing...
Why they aren't getting anywhere is the $64,000 question.
That so many successful mechanics, electronics engineers, suspension specialists, tyre technicians, crew chief and very talented rider are unable to make the bike perform says to me that the bike has some inherent problems. And that speaks to there being a real schism in the factory/team relationship at Ducati. Somewhere the feedback from the team isn't being received or acted on by the engineers to develop a solution.
Whether that is because of bruised egos, incapability, engineering dogmatism, or a specific 'ethic' at Ducati, who knows? What is evident is that despite paying huge money for one of the most gifted racers in the business and for a winning team to work with him, despite moving heaven and earth in changing their core design to one that is more rider-friendly, that they just don't have the wheels to do the job.
It looks increasingly likely that next year there will be two teams that will be dropping their satellite DS11 for an ART or whatever other hot CRT pops up. That is a damning indictment of Ducati's promises to Pramac and Cardion - "Stick with us, we will deliver a worthy race bike" - for the performance they are getting from the DS11, they could have an ART at a third of the price. Jorge Martinez looks to have made the right decision when he turned down Ducati and went with Aprilia... he certainly saved himself a ton of cash.
If the restrictions on the number of factory bikes does hold, it may be embarrassing to only have your contracted riders willing to ride your bike - as well as the loss of the significant amount of cash satellite teams bring to the R&D effort.
Riders give feedback which crew chiefs distil into settings. They both feed back to the factory what worked and what didn't and the engineers go through another cycle of development. In the days of two-strokes, the talented team engineers (like Kanemoto) could exert more influence on the bike and thus, the rider would be directly involved in development as they tested various exhaust and rotary disk/jetting combos. Now that sort of thing is the province of the factory engineers with the computers.
Racers don't develop anything anymore, but without sufficient, analytical and targeted feedback, the engineers may be throwing darts in the dark. The job of the team is to make the bike the factory develop work as best it can, on the day, for the conditions.
Rossi's strength, apart from riding fast, is in his ability to succinctly and accurately explain what is happening and what he is doing. This enables the team to better understand what the effect of that one click or Nm of torque had on the handling of the bike, what effect the TC or anti-wheelie is doing at a particular point in time. The engineers have access to all of the logs for extensive analysis back at the factory which they use with the human feedback to get a picture of the dynamics involved. The more detailed and accurate the feedback, the better able the engineers are able to distil the data into a meaningful model.
What Rossi doesn't do is to develop the bike, new parts, chassis, suspension units, engines. But he is really good at assessing the various bits as they are given to him and working out which bit did what and why.
That he is not getting anywhere with Ducati seems to be in part due to a lack of will - he is despondent after 18 months of not getting anywhere - but also has to be as a result of not getting any movement with the engineering. The problems he is reporting aren't being resolved. I believe Stoner whined about the same thing...
Why they aren't getting anywhere is the $64,000 question.
That so many successful mechanics, electronics engineers, suspension specialists, tyre technicians, crew chief and very talented rider are unable to make the bike perform says to me that the bike has some inherent problems. And that speaks to there being a real schism in the factory/team relationship at Ducati. Somewhere the feedback from the team isn't being received or acted on by the engineers to develop a solution.
Whether that is because of bruised egos, incapability, engineering dogmatism, or a specific 'ethic' at Ducati, who knows? What is evident is that despite paying huge money for one of the most gifted racers in the business and for a winning team to work with him, despite moving heaven and earth in changing their core design to one that is more rider-friendly, that they just don't have the wheels to do the job.
It looks increasingly likely that next year there will be two teams that will be dropping their satellite DS11 for an ART or whatever other hot CRT pops up. That is a damning indictment of Ducati's promises to Pramac and Cardion - "Stick with us, we will deliver a worthy race bike" - for the performance they are getting from the DS11, they could have an ART at a third of the price. Jorge Martinez looks to have made the right decision when he turned down Ducati and went with Aprilia... he certainly saved himself a ton of cash.
If the restrictions on the number of factory bikes does hold, it may be embarrassing to only have your contracted riders willing to ride your bike - as well as the loss of the significant amount of cash satellite teams bring to the R&D effort.
Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
If Cal's on the podium more than twice next year I'll buy you a case of your favorite beer. Why Duc or Dov want this (rumored) marriage is beyond my comprehension. Dovi is a died in the wool 250 style rider. Cal would've been a much better fit IMHO.
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
and bring out the trellis and screamer, or in my opinion even better, the twin pulse again.
great looking and sounding bikes, the 03-08 desmos are deffo my favorites of the whole 4 stroke era
great looking and sounding bikes, the 03-08 desmos are deffo my favorites of the whole 4 stroke era
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
.... me mick, i take a 2 month break and now you're trying to take my place as the forum stoner?
wondering what dovi will be paid, i just can't see him doing better than rossi. in fact i'd put my money on hayden beating dovi on the duc.career killer move if he isn't planning on going to wsbk soon anyways
wondering what dovi will be paid, i just can't see him doing better than rossi. in fact i'd put my money on hayden beating dovi on the duc.career killer move if he isn't planning on going to wsbk soon anyways
Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
Cliche, dude... Curvey had that nailed down long before me, MDub or you got here... Also I was puffin' and popping' 15 years before you were born dude (though I'm thinkin' Kesh has me beat by a few more years on that even though he's hung up the bong!!). Longest I've gone without ganga in the last 38 years is 17 days (and 17 days of hell they were!!). As the BM says... KIDS!!!!!
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
i tip my hat sir.
but i don't think i can concede so easily. big PS meet up and smoking contest next year. we'll all be winners
but i don't think i can concede so easily. big PS meet up and smoking contest next year. we'll all be winners
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
.... me mick, i take a 2 month break and now you're trying to take my place as the forum stoner?
wondering what dovi will be paid, i just can't see him doing better than rossi. in fact i'd put my money on hayden beating dovi on the duc.career killer move if he isn't planning on going to wsbk soon anyways
Well , if he stays at Tech 3, he makes next to nothing, if he goes to WSBK, he makes next to nothing. Ride a factory Ducati and make a factory salary.
No brainer, he needs to make some money at this point in his career
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
already thought so.
well i don't blame him for making that choice (making a couple of mill to be a seriously wealthy man before possibly trading more money for success,that is a wsbk move)
not sure what influence audi will have on ducati, but i could imagine them trying to push ducati to have their bikes bear more resemblence to the road machines.as i said a different strategy might work for a couple of tracks or maybe if they get it really right for a whole season. or maybe thats just me wishing for a return of trellis and twin pulse.anybody that heard one of those bikes will understand why i get hung up about that
screamer would be fine too, but the big bang desmo sounds as "good" as its "pretty" at the moment... and ducatis are supposed to look and sound great. what is this racing world coming to when mclarens look better than ferraris and yamahas sound better than ducatis!
well i don't blame him for making that choice (making a couple of mill to be a seriously wealthy man before possibly trading more money for success,that is a wsbk move)
not sure what influence audi will have on ducati, but i could imagine them trying to push ducati to have their bikes bear more resemblence to the road machines.as i said a different strategy might work for a couple of tracks or maybe if they get it really right for a whole season. or maybe thats just me wishing for a return of trellis and twin pulse.anybody that heard one of those bikes will understand why i get hung up about that
screamer would be fine too, but the big bang desmo sounds as "good" as its "pretty" at the moment... and ducatis are supposed to look and sound great. what is this racing world coming to when mclarens look better than ferraris and yamahas sound better than ducatis!
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
i know oil,its amazing. but its a bit like crack
have only smoked it a couple of times though i have to say, ironically i'm more of a good bud + (if it needs to be extra strong) sprinkeled black type of guy. old school i guess
ok i see us being on different continents is quite a problem if we don't meet up in guna sometime.
i'd always suggest a meet up in assen ( i invite you all to stay at stiefels, but you know BYOB. bring your own booze)
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
we should form teams too. northern america vs europe (+ british isles). rocket and me make a formidable team
on second thought...whats this liking micks status when he tells me off rocket?
on second thought...whats this liking micks status when he tells me off rocket?
Joined Jan 2011
3K Posts | 152+
The North!
we should form teams too. northern america vs europe (+ british isles). rocket and me make a formidable team
on second thought...whats this liking micks status when he tells me off rocket?
So ain't I allowed to like 17 days off in 38 years?
Fcuking impressive if you ask me!
I thought I was doing well with my measly 26 years!!!
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
yeah yeah you guys are like rossi. a lot achieved in a big amount of time.
but i'm the real stoner.
veni vidi fumeus!
just joking mate
i have a lot of respect for the old timers, always valuable lessons to be learned!
but i'm the real stoner.
veni vidi fumeus!
just joking mate
i have a lot of respect for the old timers, always valuable lessons to be learned!
Dovi changed his style last year to try and ride like Stoner or at least Stoner's chassis. This year he has had to significantly change his style to a 250 style which is what suits the Yamaha. If it is true and he has signed for Ducati then he will set about changing his style to suit the Ducati. Dovi may not be as talented as Lorenzo, Stoner, Pedrosa and Rossi but he is determined. I think he has the ability, the determination and the balls to give the Ducati a good crack. I don't believe the Ducati can only be successfully ridden by Stoner's style. Dovi will find a way to make it work enough to get it on the podium occasionally. He also will ride it as it is and not be demanding wholesale changes and then just circulate will he waits for them to happen. I would be willing to bet that he beats Hayden over the course of the season.
