it just shows how good rossi is to have caught up by that many points562:attachment]562:attachment]563:atta
chment]
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this makes interesting reading
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& it shows how lucky Hayden has been to be where he is now, without all the bad luck to others he'd be in 5th IMHO
That table shows only how good was Rossi when he didn't had problems wiht the bike.
Except for Laguna, Rossi always finished ahead of Hayden. I don't even recall Hayden to battle with Rossi till the finish line, like Capirossi or Melandri.
He doesn't deserves this title at all.
It's not possible to win the champ, and not being able to beat you rival in not a single race(except Laguna).
Except for Laguna, Rossi always finished ahead of Hayden. I don't even recall Hayden to battle with Rossi till the finish line, like Capirossi or Melandri.
He doesn't deserves this title at all.
It's not possible to win the champ, and not being able to beat you rival in not a single race(except Laguna).
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
Assen doesn't count either, right? The FIM really need to work on their rules, I mean everyone should know that races in which a rider wearing the number 46 has unfortunate luck don't count towards the world championship.
Not bashing his fans and certainly not bashing Rossi but the constant "Hayden doesn't deserve the championship" talk is really getting repetitive and rather annoying. If he manages to score more points than Valentino after Valencia then he will be the 2006 champ and there's nothing anyone can say to take that away. And if Valentino makes the comeback complete then it will be remembered as one of the best seasons in recent memory. Simple as that.
Not bashing his fans and certainly not bashing Rossi but the constant "Hayden doesn't deserve the championship" talk is really getting repetitive and rather annoying. If he manages to score more points than Valentino after Valencia then he will be the 2006 champ and there's nothing anyone can say to take that away. And if Valentino makes the comeback complete then it will be remembered as one of the best seasons in recent memory. Simple as that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ooost @ Sep 26 2006, 12:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Assen doesn't count either, right? The FIM really need to work on their rules, I mean everyone should know that races in which a rider wearing the number 46 has unfortunate luck don't count towards the world championship.
Not bashing his fans and certainly not bashing Rossi but the constant "Hayden doesn't deserve the championship" talk is really getting repetitive and rather annoying. If he manages to score more points than Valentino after Valencia then he will be the 2006 champ and there's nothing anyone can say to take that away. And if Valentino makes the comeback complete then it will be remembered as one of the best seasons in recent memory. Simple as that.
Simple as that.... if hayden wins it it will be because he was a role model of consistency , of keeping the bike on track and bring home every point i can get....and because of his huge luck and teriblle unluck of rossi, capirossi, melandri and pedrosa.
He will be the champion, hat's off to him...but what i like to see from him is fighting and winning in front of the rest of contender on track in a wheel to wheel battle.
.
Not bashing his fans and certainly not bashing Rossi but the constant "Hayden doesn't deserve the championship" talk is really getting repetitive and rather annoying. If he manages to score more points than Valentino after Valencia then he will be the 2006 champ and there's nothing anyone can say to take that away. And if Valentino makes the comeback complete then it will be remembered as one of the best seasons in recent memory. Simple as that.
Simple as that.... if hayden wins it it will be because he was a role model of consistency , of keeping the bike on track and bring home every point i can get....and because of his huge luck and teriblle unluck of rossi, capirossi, melandri and pedrosa.
He will be the champion, hat's off to him...but what i like to see from him is fighting and winning in front of the rest of contender on track in a wheel to wheel battle.
.
^ +1 Ooost...
hayden has those points because he has deserved them... he has worked for every point.
whichever rider manages to get the 2006 championship title will have earnt it ... whether it be hayden, rossi, cappers, melandri, vermeuelen ... (never know Suzuki's money mite have all been invested into developing a time machine
)
hayden has those points because he has deserved them... he has worked for every point.
whichever rider manages to get the 2006 championship title will have earnt it ... whether it be hayden, rossi, cappers, melandri, vermeuelen ... (never know Suzuki's money mite have all been invested into developing a time machine
I agree with Capirex.
I'm not saying he doesn't deserve the championship. I think I've posted on another topic that whoever will win the championship is deserving of that, and that includes Nicky.
I just hope I get to see him battle it out at the front more.
I'm not saying he doesn't deserve the championship. I think I've posted on another topic that whoever will win the championship is deserving of that, and that includes Nicky.
I just hope I get to see him battle it out at the front more.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katt @ Sep 26 2006, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>^ +1 Ooost...
hayden has those points because he has deserved them... he has worked for every point.
whichever rider manages to get the 2006 championship title will have earnt it ... whether it be hayden, rossi, cappers, melandri, vermeuelen ... (never know Suzuki's money mite have all been invested into developing a time machine
)
you forgot about dani...in your list
For sure...but then it might be a neck to neck, wheel to wheel fight between hopkins and vermeulen...
i didn't say hayden doesn't deserve to be a champion...like somedamnwriter sayed if he can win it he deserves...just i want him to fight rossi on track not to do a safe race.... bring points and so on... not only a distant points and position battle.
hayden has those points because he has deserved them... he has worked for every point.
whichever rider manages to get the 2006 championship title will have earnt it ... whether it be hayden, rossi, cappers, melandri, vermeuelen ... (never know Suzuki's money mite have all been invested into developing a time machine
you forgot about dani...in your list
For sure...but then it might be a neck to neck, wheel to wheel fight between hopkins and vermeulen...
i didn't say hayden doesn't deserve to be a champion...like somedamnwriter sayed if he can win it he deserves...just i want him to fight rossi on track not to do a safe race.... bring points and so on... not only a distant points and position battle.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ooost @ Sep 26 2006, 05:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Assen doesn't count either, right? The FIM really need to work on their rules, I mean everyone should know that races in which a rider wearing the number 46 has unfortunate luck don't count towards the world championship.
Not bashing his fans and certainly not bashing Rossi but the constant "Hayden doesn't deserve the championship" talk is really getting repetitive and rather annoying. If he manages to score more points than Valentino after Valencia then he will be the 2006 champ and there's nothing anyone can say to take that away. And if Valentino makes the comeback complete then it will be remembered as one of the best seasons in recent memory. Simple as that.
I hear you man, but come on dude...don't be so politically correct. You are a Hayden fan....period...I know you also like all the other riders. But even a small part of you has to admit, that Hayden is choking at the end here. Its not that the races where Rossi doesn't finish well doesn't count, its just that Hayden has yet to prove himself in a head to head race with Vale....don't treat people like idiots....OF COURSE, if he has more points he'll be the champion....but in my eyes, unless you've scrapped with Rossi and won at least once...like Cappy and Melandri....you're just the mathematical champion.....
Not bashing his fans and certainly not bashing Rossi but the constant "Hayden doesn't deserve the championship" talk is really getting repetitive and rather annoying. If he manages to score more points than Valentino after Valencia then he will be the 2006 champ and there's nothing anyone can say to take that away. And if Valentino makes the comeback complete then it will be remembered as one of the best seasons in recent memory. Simple as that.
I hear you man, but come on dude...don't be so politically correct. You are a Hayden fan....period...I know you also like all the other riders. But even a small part of you has to admit, that Hayden is choking at the end here. Its not that the races where Rossi doesn't finish well doesn't count, its just that Hayden has yet to prove himself in a head to head race with Vale....don't treat people like idiots....OF COURSE, if he has more points he'll be the champion....but in my eyes, unless you've scrapped with Rossi and won at least once...like Cappy and Melandri....you're just the mathematical champion.....
Joined Jul 2006
11K Posts | 291+
Texas
i believe, "if you wanna be the man, you've got to beat the man."
and that hasn't happened...i like Nick, but he has to show something these last 2 races....
and that hasn't happened...i like Nick, but he has to show something these last 2 races....
Hi its R-46 here If not for rossi having 3 DNFs we would not be having these talks now would we ?.
Tommy Hinds III
R-46
I don't care! Loris is going to win
.. He's going kick'em all off
because that's what I would do.
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Sep 26 2006, 02:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I hear you man, but come on dude...don't be so politically correct. You are a Hayden fan....period...I know you also like all the other riders. But even a small part of you has to admit, that Hayden is choking at the end here. Its not that the races where Rossi doesn't finish well doesn't count, its just that Hayden has yet to prove himself in a head to head race with Vale....don't treat people like idiots....OF COURSE, if he has more points he'll be the champion....but in my eyes, unless you've scrapped with Rossi and won at least once...like Cappy and Melandri....you're just the mathematical champion.....
I'll be the first one to admit he has been choking as late, I couldn't very well say the things I say about the current tables and choose to ignore his poor form as of late. And I can completely understand people's opinions of Hayden when it comes to head to head battles. However, "mathematical champion" still has the word champion in it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R-46 @ Sep 26 2006, 03:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
Hi its R-46 here If not for rossi having 3 DNFs we would not be having these talks now would we ?.
Tommy Hinds III
R-46
You're right, if Rossi didn't have three DNFs we most likely also wouldn't be having these talks. IF Hayden didn't have a poor clutch we might not be having these talks. IF Hayden was riding the 'Spec' RC211V we might not be having these talks. IF Rossi was penalized for the yellow flag incident we might not be having this talks. But Rossi did have three DNFs, Hayden does have a .... clutch, Hayden isn't on the 'Spec' RC211V and Rossi wasn't penalized for the yellow flag incident. That's racing, it's unpredictable and it happens and the result is an incredibly tight points race.
I'll be the first one to admit he has been choking as late, I couldn't very well say the things I say about the current tables and choose to ignore his poor form as of late. And I can completely understand people's opinions of Hayden when it comes to head to head battles. However, "mathematical champion" still has the word champion in it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R-46 @ Sep 26 2006, 03:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
Hi its R-46 here If not for rossi having 3 DNFs we would not be having these talks now would we ?.
Tommy Hinds III
R-46
You're right, if Rossi didn't have three DNFs we most likely also wouldn't be having these talks. IF Hayden didn't have a poor clutch we might not be having these talks. IF Hayden was riding the 'Spec' RC211V we might not be having these talks. IF Rossi was penalized for the yellow flag incident we might not be having this talks. But Rossi did have three DNFs, Hayden does have a .... clutch, Hayden isn't on the 'Spec' RC211V and Rossi wasn't penalized for the yellow flag incident. That's racing, it's unpredictable and it happens and the result is an incredibly tight points race.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ooost @ Sep 26 2006, 06:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'll be the first one to admit he has been choking as late, I couldn't very well say the things I say about the current tables and choose to ignore his poor form as of late. And I can completely understand people's opinions of Hayden when it comes to head to head battles. However, "mathematical champion" still has the word champion in it.
You're right, if Rossi didn't have three DNFs we most likely also wouldn't be having these talks. IF Hayden didn't have a poor clutch we might not be having these talks. IF Hayden was riding the 'Spec' RC211V we might not be having these talks. IF Rossi was penalized for the yellow flag incident we might not be having this talks. But Rossi did have three DNFs, Hayden does have a .... clutch, Hayden isn't on the 'Spec' RC211V and Rossi wasn't penalized for the yellow flag incident. That's racing, it's unpredictable and it happens and the result is an incredibly tight points race.
Just curious, how is it when someone else than Rossi is THE development rider, the one to recieve the true development stuff, this suddenly go from the huge advantage and (for some) the only reason he is faster, while when someone else has this honor at HRC this is transformed to (one of) the reason rider doesn't win.
Honda just analysed the two bikes and it Haydens bike they will continue developin into the new 800 aera. Smaller, more agile, better grip... All in all the better bike. I have problems to see how this has been to much of a disadvantage for Hayden.
You're right, if Rossi didn't have three DNFs we most likely also wouldn't be having these talks. IF Hayden didn't have a poor clutch we might not be having these talks. IF Hayden was riding the 'Spec' RC211V we might not be having these talks. IF Rossi was penalized for the yellow flag incident we might not be having this talks. But Rossi did have three DNFs, Hayden does have a .... clutch, Hayden isn't on the 'Spec' RC211V and Rossi wasn't penalized for the yellow flag incident. That's racing, it's unpredictable and it happens and the result is an incredibly tight points race.
Just curious, how is it when someone else than Rossi is THE development rider, the one to recieve the true development stuff, this suddenly go from the huge advantage and (for some) the only reason he is faster, while when someone else has this honor at HRC this is transformed to (one of) the reason rider doesn't win.
Honda just analysed the two bikes and it Haydens bike they will continue developin into the new 800 aera. Smaller, more agile, better grip... All in all the better bike. I have problems to see how this has been to much of a disadvantage for Hayden.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 26 2006, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just curious, how is it when someone else than Rossi is THE development rider, the one to recieve the true development stuff, this suddenly go from the huge advantage and (for some) the only reason he is faster, while when someone else has this honor at HRC this is transformed to (one of) the reason rider doesn't win.
I think this is because people generally fear what they don't understand....Rossi is a "natural talent"....he can just do it.....a lot of other guys come from a school of hard knocks....they had to "learn" how to do it....as a former racer I can tell you....a natural talent on the track is simply awesome to witness...Nicky is great...but he simply doesn't have the ingrained ability to extrapolate what a bike needs to make it faster.....that's not an insult, because it means he has to work harder to get to the same place.......but HRC coupled with a natural talent like Rossi = the bike must be too good........and HRC plus a guy that has to work at it means the bike is his excuse...it all boils down to people not understanding why someone is better than others......
I think this is because people generally fear what they don't understand....Rossi is a "natural talent"....he can just do it.....a lot of other guys come from a school of hard knocks....they had to "learn" how to do it....as a former racer I can tell you....a natural talent on the track is simply awesome to witness...Nicky is great...but he simply doesn't have the ingrained ability to extrapolate what a bike needs to make it faster.....that's not an insult, because it means he has to work harder to get to the same place.......but HRC coupled with a natural talent like Rossi = the bike must be too good........and HRC plus a guy that has to work at it means the bike is his excuse...it all boils down to people not understanding why someone is better than others......
Also, the satellite bikes have tried and true performance parts that have already been tested and showed gain and all the bugs from it have been fixed.
The new parts may be better than the spec parts but they have to be tested and have the flaws fixed. The tester fixes these flaws and then sends them to the rider (Hayden). Hayden then puts them on his bike for a real life race test. There, he can find that the part works wonders or is stuck trying to figure out the flaws and how to fix them.
Others have the proven things that go fast. He has what has the potential of going faster but since he hasn't figured it out yet he cannot fully exploit it.
My reasoning for Rossi being so good with it is he can ride around it and things are made to his and Burgesses' specifications. They know exactly what they want and how to make it. Rossi can ride around the flaws and still be fast. (Thats backing The Doc's theory) Look at how badly the 2006 engine was treating the bike and he got a few podiums and wins and what-not with it while Edwards ate a poop with it.
Its all a part of The Doc's theory and mine.
Feel free to add to it.
The new parts may be better than the spec parts but they have to be tested and have the flaws fixed. The tester fixes these flaws and then sends them to the rider (Hayden). Hayden then puts them on his bike for a real life race test. There, he can find that the part works wonders or is stuck trying to figure out the flaws and how to fix them.
Others have the proven things that go fast. He has what has the potential of going faster but since he hasn't figured it out yet he cannot fully exploit it.
My reasoning for Rossi being so good with it is he can ride around it and things are made to his and Burgesses' specifications. They know exactly what they want and how to make it. Rossi can ride around the flaws and still be fast. (Thats backing The Doc's theory) Look at how badly the 2006 engine was treating the bike and he got a few podiums and wins and what-not with it while Edwards ate a poop with it.
Its all a part of The Doc's theory and mine.
Feel free to add to it.
I'm really getting tired of hearing "but if" from the Rossi fans. And what if the opposite had been true? Hayden would have been having all the bad luck and Rossi had been riding consistently every race? Would you be saying the same thing then?
Fact, Hayden's lowest position this season is ninth. Other than that, his lowest is 5th. Thats a level of consistency that nobody else has been able to match. You need to have more than aggression and strength to take a title, you need to think, to be smart. Hayden has done that, and in my opinion, if he ends up with more points than Rossi, he deserves the title, and vice versa.
Fact, Hayden's lowest position this season is ninth. Other than that, his lowest is 5th. Thats a level of consistency that nobody else has been able to match. You need to have more than aggression and strength to take a title, you need to think, to be smart. Hayden has done that, and in my opinion, if he ends up with more points than Rossi, he deserves the title, and vice versa.
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 26 2006, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just curious, how is it when someone else than Rossi is THE development rider, the one to recieve the true development stuff, this suddenly go from the huge advantage and (for some) the only reason he is faster, while when someone else has this honor at HRC this is transformed to (one of) the reason rider doesn't win.
Honda just analysed the two bikes and it Haydens bike they will continue developin into the new 800 aera. Smaller, more agile, better grip... All in all the better bike. I have problems to see how this has been to much of a disadvantage for Hayden.
Being an HRC lead rider is a huge advantage in every way, shape or form. It's what motorcycle racers dream of. However, according to the latest Dennis Noyes article, he claims that HRC forced Hayden to ride the 'Evo' bike and was not given an option as Pedrosa was. Also interesting, the 'Evo' bike is not "mostly 990 bits with a few parts designed for the 800," like HRC claimed, it's 80% 800cc machine. Very primative development stuff.
Now you tell me, does riding around on an (in comparison) extremely underdeveloped bike sound great when there is a tried and true version sitting in the other garage? I'd prefer to have Dani's seat but that's just me.
Honda just analysed the two bikes and it Haydens bike they will continue developin into the new 800 aera. Smaller, more agile, better grip... All in all the better bike. I have problems to see how this has been to much of a disadvantage for Hayden.
Being an HRC lead rider is a huge advantage in every way, shape or form. It's what motorcycle racers dream of. However, according to the latest Dennis Noyes article, he claims that HRC forced Hayden to ride the 'Evo' bike and was not given an option as Pedrosa was. Also interesting, the 'Evo' bike is not "mostly 990 bits with a few parts designed for the 800," like HRC claimed, it's 80% 800cc machine. Very primative development stuff.
Now you tell me, does riding around on an (in comparison) extremely underdeveloped bike sound great when there is a tried and true version sitting in the other garage? I'd prefer to have Dani's seat but that's just me.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IsraeliRacer @ Sep 26 2006, 03:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm really getting tired of hearing "but if" from the Rossi fans. And what if the opposite had been true? Hayden would have been having all the bad luck and Rossi had been riding consistently every race? Would you be saying the same thing then?
Fact, Hayden's lowest position this season is ninth. Other than that, his lowest is 5th. Thats a level of consistency that nobody else has been able to match. You need to have more than aggression and strength to take a title, you need to think, to be smart. Hayden has done that, and in my opinion, if he ends up with more points than Rossi, he deserves the title, and vice versa.
I think you've missed the point here, completely. As I was saying (and XB said very well) Rossi posseses an ability to ride around flaws. Nicky and many others in the paddock are not the same. Even in the latest movie Doctor/Tornado/Kentuckey Kid, Colin Edwards refers to Rossi as the greatest rider of all time...and he goes on to say that he has an ability that he doesn't even understand.....and that's from a top level rider...in the paddock.....how much more do you need to hear?
The fact is, if Nicky had had the type of luck that Rossi has ridden "around" to within 12 points of the "consistent" Nicky....he'd be at the bottom of the pile.....
Nicky hasn't exactly "worked" for all those positions Israeli....a lot of them were gifted to him by others untimely DNF's and injuries..whereas, whenever Rossi got hit, he'd come back with twice the drive....that is why you can't compare a hard fought 3rd place in Mugello for Nicky (which impressed the .... out of me)...to his freebie in Assen with everyone injured....
Mathematically, a champion he might be, but he'll have to live with the fact that he beat Vale by numbers, not by skill.....as an ex-racer, I can tell you....that'll suck.....
Fact, Hayden's lowest position this season is ninth. Other than that, his lowest is 5th. Thats a level of consistency that nobody else has been able to match. You need to have more than aggression and strength to take a title, you need to think, to be smart. Hayden has done that, and in my opinion, if he ends up with more points than Rossi, he deserves the title, and vice versa.
I think you've missed the point here, completely. As I was saying (and XB said very well) Rossi posseses an ability to ride around flaws. Nicky and many others in the paddock are not the same. Even in the latest movie Doctor/Tornado/Kentuckey Kid, Colin Edwards refers to Rossi as the greatest rider of all time...and he goes on to say that he has an ability that he doesn't even understand.....and that's from a top level rider...in the paddock.....how much more do you need to hear?
The fact is, if Nicky had had the type of luck that Rossi has ridden "around" to within 12 points of the "consistent" Nicky....he'd be at the bottom of the pile.....
Nicky hasn't exactly "worked" for all those positions Israeli....a lot of them were gifted to him by others untimely DNF's and injuries..whereas, whenever Rossi got hit, he'd come back with twice the drive....that is why you can't compare a hard fought 3rd place in Mugello for Nicky (which impressed the .... out of me)...to his freebie in Assen with everyone injured....
Mathematically, a champion he might be, but he'll have to live with the fact that he beat Vale by numbers, not by skill.....as an ex-racer, I can tell you....that'll suck.....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ooost @ Sep 26 2006, 05:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'll be the first one to admit he has been choking as late, I couldn't very well say the things I say about the current tables and choose to ignore his poor form as of late. And I can completely understand people's opinions of Hayden when it comes to head to head battles. However, "mathematical champion" still has the word champion in it.
You're right, if Rossi didn't have three DNFs we most likely also wouldn't be having these talks. IF Hayden didn't have a poor clutch we might not be having these talks. IF Hayden was riding the 'Spec' RC211V we might not be having these talks. IF Rossi was penalized for the yellow flag incident we might not be having this talks. But Rossi did have three DNFs, Hayden does have a .... clutch, Hayden isn't on the 'Spec' RC211V and Rossi wasn't penalized for the yellow flag incident. That's racing, it's unpredictable and it happens and the result is an incredibly tight points race.
and thats the reason i get up at unholy hours of the morning to watch and spend loads of hard earned to go and watch the best most exciting sport in the world
im a rossi fan i think he is the greatest rider and i will be at valencia to support him but if hayden wins the championship i will clap him and respect that because above all im a race fan
You're right, if Rossi didn't have three DNFs we most likely also wouldn't be having these talks. IF Hayden didn't have a poor clutch we might not be having these talks. IF Hayden was riding the 'Spec' RC211V we might not be having these talks. IF Rossi was penalized for the yellow flag incident we might not be having this talks. But Rossi did have three DNFs, Hayden does have a .... clutch, Hayden isn't on the 'Spec' RC211V and Rossi wasn't penalized for the yellow flag incident. That's racing, it's unpredictable and it happens and the result is an incredibly tight points race.
and thats the reason i get up at unholy hours of the morning to watch and spend loads of hard earned to go and watch the best most exciting sport in the world
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