Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España 2017

Gaz · May 5, 2017

moto vudu said:
Ok, definitely no hard feelings here. I may have misread you and thought you were being negative.

Ghost Recon Wildlands is an open world game where you play as part of a Spec Op team to take down a cartel.

Studying for the 2nd part of a MCSA exam.

Good luck with the MCSA - don't have that one and have no wish to get it (I work in the field but different side obviously) as I know many who have that or the variants (MCSE, and the Cisco variety).

michaelm · May 5, 2017

moto vudu said:
Your initial post was stating since the return Michelin, the front continues to be an issue for ALL riders. I didn't agree with it and actually ignored it to continue playing GR Wildlands while taking a break from studying for a IT cert. p4p1 called me out and that's who I responded to, but you jumped in to defend your post. You were the one that got emotional and negative, I didn't attack you. Just an observation..........

In this case you were both referred to in your absence by someone else and it was indeed damp, as well as cool which doesn't seem to suit the Yamahas.

However, exactly why is it impossible that the Michelin front is problematic, and why is it unreasonable to think it may be?

Numerous riders have had front end washouts, including riders not prone to same historically such as Rossi and Lorenzo last year, and several of them have said the front end lose was inexplicable and not due to rider error, while no rider to my knowledge has said the tyre is fine and unproblematic. In addition, a rider who has won 2 premier class world titles and 38 races and unlike the current riders does not have a contractual gag order in regard to criticising tyres, has ridden the tyres on a gp bike in official testing and said last year that he believed there was a problem with the Michelin front and in particular that it was mismatched with the rear.

p4p1 · May 5, 2017

I'm very confused why from what we see here Rossi fans in particular feel the need to jump in a defend Michelin. Even Rossi has had some pretty negative comments about the tyre and has had unexplained washouts. At COTA Rossi was on record saying that he didn't think a drop of 5-6 degrees would effect the tyres so much. That's a man who's been racing in the top class since 2000, if he didn't expect such a drop off it is more than fair to say that right now the Michelin tyres are substandard.

p4p1 · May 5, 2017

Oh and Vudu I called you out because after Marquez's unexplained washout(telemetry shows nothing different in that lap) in Argentina you were stupidly quick to say that Vinaeles is in his head. Vinaeles then has a quick crash trying to catch Marquez and has a small uncharacteristic crash in practise yet not a peep about Vinaeles' head. Why?

moto vudu · May 5, 2017

michaelm said:
In this case you were both referred to in your absence by someone else and it was indeed damp, as well as cool which doesn't seem to suit the Yamahas.

However, exactly why is it impossible that the Michelin front is problematic, and why is it unreasonable to think it may be?

Numerous riders have had front end washouts, including riders not prone to same historically such as Rossi and Lorenzo last year, and several of them have said the front end lose was inexplicable and not due to rider error, while no rider to my knowledge has said the tyre is fine and unproblematic. In addition, a rider who has won 2 premier class world titles and 38 races and unlike the current riders does not have a contractual gag order in regard to criticising tyres, has ridden the tyres on a gp bike in official testing and said last year that he believed there was a problem with the Michelin front and in particular that it was mismatched with the rear.

p4p1 said:
I'm very confused why from what we see here Rossi fans in particular feel the need to jump in a defend Michelin. Even Rossi has had some pretty negative comments about the tyre and has had unexplained washouts. At COTA Rossi was on record saying that he didn't think a drop of 5-6 degrees would effect the tyres so much. That's a man who's been racing in the top class since 2000, if he didn't expect such a drop off it is more than fair to say that right now the Michelin tyres are substandard.

Recency effect — the tendency to weigh recent events more than earlier events.

Numerous riders always have front end washouts every season, it doesn't matter what brand is stamped on the sidewalls. Do you have data that shows there were more front end washouts on the Michelins in 2016 compared to any season that was run on Bridgestones? It's funny that every time a rider crashes now, it's Michelins fault. If that's the case, what exactly was the reason for the numerous crashes on Bridgestones? It's like you're expecting crash-proof tires or all riders to have nothing but positive feedback for the tires. That'll never happen no matter the manufacturer! There was plenty of negative comments made towards the Bridgestones, it's nothing new.

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2012/07/06/bridgestone_s_tire_failures_at_assen_sto.html

p4p1 said:
Oh and Vudu I called you out because after Marquez's unexplained washout(telemetry shows nothing different in that lap) in Argentina you were stupidly quick to say that Vinaeles is in his head. Vinaeles then has a quick crash trying to catch Marquez and has a small uncharacteristic crash in practise yet not a peep about Vinaeles' head. Why?

Marquez took off like an animal at Argentina (even Cal said this) and made a mistake that cost him the race. IMO, his race strategy was to start fast because he knew Vinales had shown a better race pace in the FP sessions. So yes, MV was in his head.

At COTA MV made a rider error and yesterday he got caught out by damp conditions. That's why I haven't made a peep about Vinales' head, he hasn't shown any sort of cracking or changing his strategies based on what Marquez is doing.

michaelm · May 5, 2017

moto vudu said:
Recency effect — the tendency to weigh recent events more than earlier events.

Numerous riders always have front end washouts every season, it doesn't matter what brand is stamped on the sidewalls. Do you have data that shows there have been more front end washouts on the Michelins in 2016 compared to any season that was run on Bridgestones? It's funny that every time a rider crashes now, it's Michelins fault. Then what exactly was the reason for the numerous crashes on Bridgestones? It's like you're expecting crash-proof tires or all riders to have nothing but positive feedback for the tires. That'll never happen no matter the manufacturer! There was plenty of negative comments made towards the Bridgestones, it's nothing new.

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2012/07/06/bridgestone_s_tire_failures_at_assen_sto.html

Marquez took off like an animal at Argentina (even Cal said this) and made a mistake that cost him the race. IMO, his race strategy was to start fast because he knew Vinales had shown a better race pace in the FP sessions. So yes, MV was in his head.

At COTA MV made a rider error and yesterday he got caught out by damp conditions. That's why I haven't made a peep about Vinales' head, he hasn't shown any sort of cracking or changing his strategies based on what Marquez is doing.

Perhaps not the best example where Stoner is concerned, given iirc that was the tyre which Stoner and HRC said would prove insufficiently durable in racing conditions and replaced a tyre that he and Honda wished to be retained.

Stoner actually being proven correct about that tyre, which Valentino Rossi acknowledged, hardly makes his comments about the Michelin front which you have chosen not to address less likely to be correct I wouldn't have thought.

I actually have an hypothesis which I freely admit is a theory only that Bridgestone got out because they were getting blamed for the failure of tyres which they had made to Dorna's instructions.

I think it is generally acknowledged there was a problem with the cold tyre performance of the Bridgestones prior to 2012, although if I wanted to defend Bridgestone as you do Michelin I could question whether they should have been blamed for the likes of Marco Simoncelli not waiting for his tyres to warm up. Bridgestones being problematic in the past doesn't preclude Michelins being problematic now anyway.

Gaz · May 5, 2017

moto vudu said:
Numerous riders always have front end washouts every season, it doesn't matter what brand is stamped on the sidewalls. Do you have data that shows there were more front end washouts on the Michelins in 2016 (simply cannot recall to many if any similar during the 'stone years) compared to any season that was run on Bridgestones? It's funny that every time a rider crashes now, it's Michelins fault. If that's the case, what exactly was the reason for the numerous crashes on Bridgestones? It's like you're expecting crash-proof tires or all riders to have nothing but positive feedback for the tires. That'll never happen no matter the manufacturer! There was plenty of negative comments made towards the Bridgestones, it's nothing new.

Very true that front end crashes occur each year, in each class and on each manufacturer but I will not deny that some of those since the return of Michelin have been rather perplexing and really, do seem to support the 'small operating temperature band' comments that have been flying around.

Whilst we will always see lean angles overload and washout, braking overload and washout, and even the damp patch washout I have to admit that some of the more upright washouts are interesting (ie. some of those at T4 PI last year throughout the weekend).

Specifically I refer to the crash that occurs in dry, on a slick tyre but looks suspiciously similar to the type of crash you will see in the wet when one brakes to hard and suddenly they are on the deck (Rossi Assen for example).

May well be wrong as there is not enough 'crash type' data around but I cannot recall to many crashes going back year of the nature of those upright style of crash and thus is why I have said since last year, that season 2017 is the year where Michelin can be judged as they have a season full of data and thus should have learnt.

moto vudu · May 5, 2017

michaelm said:
Perhaps not the best example where Stoner is concerned, given iirc that was the tyre which Stoner and HRC said would prove insufficiently durable in racing conditions and replaced a tyre that he and Honda wished to be retained.

Stoner actually being proven correct about that tyre, which Valentino Rossi acknowledged, hardly makes his comments about the Michelin front which you have chosen not to address less likely to be correct I wouldn't have thought.

I actually have an hypothesis which I freely admit is a theory only that Bridgestone got out because they were getting blamed for the failure of tyres which they had made to Dorna's instructions.

I think it is generally acknowledged there was a problem with the cold tyre performance of the Bridgestones prior to 2012, although if I wanted to defend Bridgestone as you do Michelin I could question whether they should have been blamed for the likes of Marco Simoncelli not waiting for his tyres to warm up. Bridgestones being problematic in the past doesn't preclude Michelins being problematic now anyway.

No, it just means it's another normal MotoGP season. Tires will always be problematic (could even be at the request of Dorna). The arguments presented here lately seem to imply that things would be better if Bridgestones were still in use, but I don't see how things would be better or worse. Numerous riders would still be crashing and there would still be plenty of issues.

michaelm · May 5, 2017

moto vudu said:
No, it just means it's another normal MotoGP season. Tires will always be problematic (could even be at the request of Dorna). The arguments presented here lately seem to imply that things would be better if Bridgestones were still in use, but I don't see how things would be better or worse. Numerous riders would still be crashing and there would still be plenty of issues.

The contention you oppose is that there were systematic washouts of the Michelin front last year, and as I have said twice now Casey Stoner considered the tyre to be problematic and mismatched with the rear.

This may be incorrect, but I don't see how it is "just another MotoGP season".

moto vudu · May 5, 2017

michaelm said:
The contention you oppose is that there were systematic washouts of the Michelin front last year, and as I have said twice now Casey Stoner considered the tyre to be problematic and mismatched with the rear.

This may be incorrect, but I don't see how it is "just another MotoGP season".

Stoner gave his opinion, doesn't make him correct. Lap records don't continue to fall with mismatched front & rear tires. Perhaps the issue was on the GP16 Stoner was testing where the front and rear weren't properly matched. I don't hear Marquez, Rossi, Pedrosa, Crutchlow, or Vinales, claiming the front and rear tire profiles don't match. It's an in-active test rider with the least amount of time on the tires making that claim.

michaelm · May 6, 2017

moto vudu said:
Stoner gave his opinion, doesn't make him correct. Lap records don't continue to fall with mismatched front & rear tires. Perhaps the issue was on the GP16 Stoner was testing where the front and rear weren't properly matched. I don't hear Marquez, Rossi, Pedrosa, Crutchlow, or Vinales, claiming the front and rear tire profiles don't match. It's an in-active test rider with the least amount of time on the tires making that claim.

So they are not saying that, but nor are they saying the tyres are unproblematic, and several have said a front-end washout was inexplicable and not due to rider error.

So if a rider says something that disagrees with your armchair theorising you blithely dismiss it, and you can apparently judge the tyres from your observation post better than Casey Stoner who can still post a lap time at the front of the field, yet present what riders haven't actually said as evidence, particularly when as I said the current competitors have gag orders on them in regard to tyres anyway?

moto vudu · May 6, 2017

michaelm said:
So they are not saying that, but nor are they saying the tyres are unproblematic, and several have said a front-end washout was inexplicable and not due to rider error.

So if a rider says something that disagrees with your armchair theorising you blithely dismiss it, and you can apparently judge the tyres from your observation post better than Casey Stoner who can still post a lap time at the front of the field, yet present what riders haven't actually said as evidence, particularly when as I said the current competitors have gag orders on them in regard to tyres anyway?

The problems some riders have had isn't proof that the front and rear tire profiles do not match. Stoner didn't claim the profiles for the Bridgestones didn't match, yet many riders had crashes on them which that felt were inexplicable or claimed they didn't know the reason.

I didn't dismiss Stoner's claim, I just consider it his opinion... not a fact.

Gaz · May 6, 2017

moto vudu said:
Stoner gave his opinion, doesn't make him correct. Lap records don't continue to fall with mismatched front & rear tires. Perhaps the issue was on the GP16 Stoner was testing where the front and rear weren't properly matched. I don't hear Marquez, Rossi, Pedrosa, Crutchlow, or Vinales, claiming the front and rear tire profiles don't match. It's an in-active test rider with the least amount of time on the tires making that claim.

Said by Stoner and reported on Krops site 02/2016 - https://motomatters.com/analysis/2016/02/05/casey_stoner_s_ducati_motogp_test_your_q.html

The other example came at this test at Sepang. When asked about how the Michelin tires felt, he gave an explanation for why so many riders had crashed in the afternoon of that day. "There's a little point after probably 45°, that it goes down just a little bit more, that it doesn't seem to match with the rear with some of the profiles that we've tested. And that gives everybody a little bit a nervous feeling, and essentially why people are struggling into Turn 5, a big fast open corner, going in, when the bike goes light, it doesn't like that feeling, and it gets the bike a little nervous, and I think that's when the front wants to break away. Everybody has been having a very similar crash there." The crashes were happening either on the way into the corner, or on the way out, both points where the rider is transitioning across that sensitive area. Other riders will just tell you, "it was a strange crash."

moto vudu said:
The problems some riders have had isn't proof that the front and rear tire profiles do not match. Stoner didn't claim the profiles for the Bridgestones didn't match, yet many riders had crashes on them which that felt were inexplicable or claimed they didn't know the reason.

I didn't dismiss Stoner's claim, I just consider it his opinion... not a fact.

The interesting point with Stoner's comment that was made early in 2016 was that it proved quite prophetic for the 2016 season and has been relatively accurate in some aspects this year.

Doesn't make him right by any means, but definitely food for thought

As for Bridgestone, CS was critical (hell, he was never a shrinking violet that toed the party line) and I do recall some critique of Bridgestone's tyre quality (including support to Rossi with regards to some of the problems he experienced with chunking not to mention the fact that he feels Rossi got a dud Michelin in 2006) but also to be fair, Bridgestone did have an awesome front so would hardly be worthy of criticism. In actual fact (opinion/), the sheer quality of the Bridgestone front may well be playing a heavy part in the issues experienced (although one would expect enough time to have passed) as rider memory may over rule recent experience.

Edit. Had forgotten the criticism of Bridgestone after the late change in early 2012 where both CS and DP were openly critical of the chatter caused by the tyre and weight changes

p4p1 · May 6, 2017

We're my eyes deceiving me or did I see Lorenzo backing it in a little?

aaronl · May 6, 2017

Love to see Lorenzo in the top 5 now.

My guess is that this weekend/race does not go drama free.

MV for the win here

Dr No · May 6, 2017

Surprised to see Jorge up in 2nd.
Pleased to see Dani having a good FP.
Quali looks like it'll be a corker

BarryMachine · May 6, 2017

p4p1 said:
We're my eyes deceiving me or did I see Lorenzo backing it in a little?

Need to see the slowmo.

If the tyre is spinning up for the speed .... then yes. (Ala Stoner)

If its spinning less than it should be for the speed .... then its "kiddy skids" (ala arab.)

Ok ..... could be he is adjusting traction with the back wheel he may be trying to emulate how Stoner turned it.

p4p1 · May 6, 2017

aaronl said:
Love to see Lorenzo in the top 5 now.

My guess is that this weekend/race does not go drama free.

MV for the win here

Not saying he hasn't had form this year but that's a big call given he's had two or 3 top 5 pace laps this weekend.

danski · May 6, 2017

Looking more like Dani's weekend , every practice session at the top.
Lorenzo looking happy too, only a couple of tenths off on a bad track for Ducati.
Can't wait for qualifying.

aaronl · May 6, 2017

p4p1 said:
Not saying he hasn't had form this year but that's a big call given he's had two or 3 top 5 pace laps this weekend.

Picking him as a bit of an outsider, it would be a shock win if it happens.

Certainly stir things up I feel at the Yamaha camp

Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España 2017

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